Davening on Airplanes

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  • #589841

    Chacham
    Participant

    Davening in Airplanes is anyone familiar with these halachos. Daven byichidus or with a minyan? what about zemanim or davening near bathrooms Etc.

    #647436

    aussieboy
    Participant

    I heard your not supposed to daven with a minyan because it attracts attention and annoys the stewardess’s.

    #647437

    Jax
    Member

    According to the Shulchan Aruch, someone traveling in a ship and unable to stand may pray while sitting, but must pray over again when he reaches his destination. (Today, however, due to our low level of concentration during prayer, we wouldn’t daven over, but rather would rely on the sit-down tefilla.)

    On a ‘jumbo jet’, though, there are places where ten or more can stand and daven together, while following common courtesy: Pray quietly, avoid stepping on toes, don’t block the bathroom or aisle, etc.

    To find out El Al’s official policy towards in-flight prayer groups, I called their assistant director of public relations. The official told me, “El Al is a Jewish airline. We have never stopped this [people davening with a minyan] … We do know that people are complaining about this.” If enough people were to congregate and cause a noticeable weight imbalance, the captain would be obligated by international aviation regulations to disperse them, said the official, but this never actually happens.

    I asked Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, shlita, if one should pray with a minyan on an airplane. He said yes, adding that he does it “all the time.” While strictly speaking it might be permitted to pray at your seat, Rabbi Scheinberg prefers that one pray with a minyan, but quietly in a way that doesn’t disturb others.

    * Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 94:4,9 article from Ohr Somayach’s site

    #647438

    anonymisss
    Participant

    aussie, nice to know that you were here tonight.

    ~a~

    #647439

    GoldieLoxx
    Member

    must they do it in a place which bothers everyone else??? by cant i use the bathroom for a half hour because they are praying??? why cant elal make a place for a minyan rather than fight it???

    #647440

    Jax
    Member

    GoldieLoxx: a place for a minyan–where would that be?! not sell the last few rows of seats in the back of the plane, so we could daven there! don’t think that’ll happen that fast!

    #647441

    mamashtakah
    Member

    I don’t know – a group of us asked our Rav (in my former city) about davening on a plane, and he quite pointedly said one should daven in his seat. Before you all jump on my with “But Rav Sscheinberg said . . .” I simply feel that I asked for a p’sak from a Rav that I know, who knows me, and is well respected in the city. This was his answer, which I follow.

    #647442

    Nobody
    Member

    Mamashtakah – beautifully put. Nothing else to add.

    #647443

    aussieboy
    Participant

    Goldie: Because they are a company and they dont serviec jews they service everyone and once they make a place to daven they will need to make a chapel and a mosque. How would you like it if you had muslims and christians praying on the plane? Even if theyr not blocking anything it would still annoy you.

    #647444

    azi
    Participant

    I only daven beyechidus on a plane. i would not even complete a minyan on a plane.

    #647445

    mepal
    Member

    Interestingly, whenever I travel EL AL to Israel and there is a minyan going on, the stewardess’s aren’t usually too happy about it. They don’t show too much respect to those praying. Recently, I traveled with continental (again to Israel and therefore the flight was full of Jews) and the response was so different. The stewardess’s actually showed respect to those davening and were quite awed at it all. Just an observation…

    #647446

    cherrybim
    Participant

    We all know that minyan davening on a plane is disruptive and annoying to passengers and crew, so why does minyan take precedence over chillul hashem if divening can be accomplished b’yechidus, and there are an abundance of heterum from g’dolim and poskim?

    We bench gomel after a plane trip because of the sakana involved in flying, so why make it more difficult for the crew to do their jobs and in a safe environment.

    #647447

    chaverim
    Member

    Baruch Hashem klal yisroel has the wisdom and insight of Hagoen Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg shlitta who has paskened we should daven with a minyan in the air.

    #647448

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Continental Airlines is kind enough to offer the kitchen as a place to daven. They make an announcement asking people not to make their own minyanim, and at a time which is mutually good for staff and mispallellim, the kitchen will be made available for tfillos.

    Personally, I do a European Stopover so that I will be able to daven shachris in the airport vs. on the plane. In the winter, with the late sunrise throughout Europe, often you will be able to get a minyan in the airport.

    #647449

    mepal
    Member

    cherry, believe me. If you’d take a plane ride to Bangladesh, there’d be those carpets rolled out just as well. And dont forget. They do it five times a day.

    #647450

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I don’t often fly to places where there are minyanim on the plane.

    When my husband and I flew to Australia, davening was very strange. I forget exactly how it worked, but either he lost a shacharis in there somewhere, or gained one? I don’t remember. It was a LONG flight.

    He always stands if he can and tries to find a place on the plane that wont bother people.

    #647451

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Rabbi Shmuel Halevi Wosner: When the “fasten seatbelts” sign is lit, one should sit down. One should refrain from davening in large groups; it is preferable to daven in small groups in the seating area. The same is true for Shemoneh Esrei. If there is a possibility of standing beside one’s seat, not in the aisles, then that is preferable. If this is not possible Shemoneh Esrei can be recited while seated.

    Rabbi Ovadia Yosef davens individually on a plane and not together with a group so as not to disturb others and for fear of robbing another person’s sleep.

    Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach: One should say Shemoneh Esrei on a plane while seated and not while standing in the aisles, where he will disturb others. Rav Shlomo Zalman was not supportive of conducting minyanim during a flight because it disturbs the rest of the passengers.

    Rav Breuer advised daveining in your seat to avoid annoying others and blocking the aisles.

    Above Paraphrased

    #647452

    Nobody
    Member

    There is no need for yidden to draw attention to themselves and inasmuch as some Gedoilim have Paskened that it is permissable to make a minyan on a plane there are many Gedoilim who have Paskened to the contrary.

    We are in Golus and are thankful to each and every country that allows us the freedom to reside in her therefore we should acknowledge that gratitude by behaving in a non-disruptive manner and that includes aeroplanes.

    Hashem acknowledges the tefilos of he who davens B’yechidus as well as he who davens with a minyan and I am sure a quiet tefiloh is better than a tefiloh that causes a Chillul Hashem

    By the way I recently travelled long haul and lo and behold a Yid (front row, bulk head seat cos he had a kid) gets up wraps a tallis around him – huge Atoro on the tallis as well and starts to daven and shokol and then pops on his tefillin. You have no idea how many people stopped watching the movie and were open-jawed. This was better than any movie! But I for one was not impressed

    #647453

    chaverim
    Member

    Apparently Hagoen Harav Shmuel Halevi Wosner (by saying “it is preferable to daven in small GROUPS”) agrees with Hagoen Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg shlitta who has paskened we should daven with a minyan in the air.

    #647454

    cherrybim
    Participant

    chaverim: The emphasis should be on SMALL, not GROUPS, i.e., when you are SEATED with family or friends.

    #647455

    cherrybim
    Participant

    chaverim: Also see last paragraph “While strictly speaking it might be permitted to pray at your seat, Rabbi Scheinberg prefers that one pray with a minyan, but quietly in a way that doesn’t disturb others.”

    Rabbi Scheinberg would not daven with a minyan on a plane if doing so disturbs other passengers.

    #647456

    chaverim
    Member

    ver zugt?

    It seems to me that Hagoen Harav Shmuel Halevi Wosner does agree with Hagoen Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg shlitta who has paskened we should daven with a minyan in the air.

    #647457

    cherrybim
    Participant

    chaverim: You must be very talented to be able to daven in a way that is not disturbing to anyone, yet it should be in the seating area.

    That is why Rav Wosner first gives you the halacha, like if you had your own chartered plane, and then he says l’maise since on commercial planes it’s highly unlikely, the eitza is to daven in your seat in a SMALL group.

    #647458

    chaverim
    Member

    cherrybim: Ah, but Rav Scheinberg shlitta clearly holds that by default you should daven with a minyan in the air, and by definition davening with a minyan doesn’t necessary interfere with the crew or other passengers. Your take seems to differ from Rav Scheinberg shlitta in that you seem to assume, unlike Rav Scheinberg shlitta, that by default you are interfering simply by having a minyan.

    #647459

    cherrybim
    Participant

    chaverim: You can read Rav Scheinberg the way you want to; I prefer to read him the way, Rav Moshe Feinstein would, the way Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach would, the way Rav Ovadia Yosef would, the way Rav Breuer would.

    My Rav told me that he also davens in his seat because he feels it’s not possible for him to have the proper kavanah for davening while standing in a group: the plane is shaking and you’re trying to balance yourself and passengers and crew are trying to get past you, not to mention davening by the bathroom and the safety issues.

    #647460

    chaverim
    Member

    cherrybim: You can reinterpret Rav Scheinberg shlitta anyway you choose, but what he stated is quite unambiguous.

    #647461

    i agree that you should daven in your seat. it is a saftey hazard which is the biggest concern for all pilots, and i happen to be a pilot and know the concerns for saftey.

    and when yoy hit turbo. it would be hard to balance.

    #647464

    chaverim
    Member

    supertriplesss: Apparently the good Pilots on Continental Airlines disagree with you. Continental Airlines is kind enough to offer the kitchen as a place to daven.

    Imagine that! Some nochrim are more tolerant of yiddishkeit than some of our own brethren!

    #647466

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Ok Chaverim, you stand packed into the plane kitchen with your holy minyan and I’ll sit and daven with all the Poskim and Rabbonim; poshete Yidden .

    #647467

    chaverim
    Member

    cherrybim: Maran Hagoen Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg shlitta, myself and 8 other teire yidden. You’ll be missing out sitting in your seat imagining some other Rabbonim approve.

    #647468

    proud tatty
    Member

    cherrybim, what you are saying is wrong on so many levels.

    Did these poskim and rabbanim give their psak in a case where the airline willingly offeres the kitchen to daven?

    Since the answer to that is a very obvious NO!! you have no right to say what you have said.

    You did quote Rav Wosner and now you are going against him? is he not a Rov or a Poisek?

    Kasha cherrybim a’cherrybim

    #647469

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I think that we need to make a distinction between when an airline is willing to make an accommodation (when possible) and when an airline cannot (or will not) do so.

    If Continental is willing and able to give up the kitchen for the time period for a minyan, and it does not cause a Chillul HaShem, then it should be obvious that as long as there is no danger, one should daven with the minyan.

    However, just because Continental is willing or able doesn’t necessarily mean that other airlines can do so as well. They may have different in-flight policies (which may or may not be easy to change) that may preclude the giving up of the kitchen (or other area) for a minyan. In such cases, where there is going to be a chillul HaShem, I think it is just as obvious (based on the comments above) that it is better to daven in your seat.

    It goes without saying that if one is actually causing a danger to the aircraft or fellow passengers that you cannot daven standing up in the back of the plane.

    The Wolf

    #647470

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Sorry to disappoint you chaverim, but I doubt any Rabbonim are joining your minyan. They’re not going into the plane kitchen except to verify the Hashgacha.

    Has anyone in the CR actually been on Continental Airlines to report on the kitchen minyan?

    #647471

    chaverim
    Member

    cherrybim: Your gonna miss out a minyan with Gedeolei Yisroel shlitta. You still have time to think about it.

    #647472

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Chaverim,

    Next time someone quotes a kulah that is supported by only a daas yachad, remember your comments here.

    #647473

    chaverim
    Member

    lesschumras: Obviously you haven’t had the zchus to fly with some of the klal yisroel’s greatest rabbonim, as have I. Maran Hagoen Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg shlitta is no daas yochid. I’ve been with a minyan with MANY tzaddikim.

    #647474

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Chaverim,

    but you keep quoting only one gadol while ignoring/discounting the psaks of all the other gadolim mentioned in this thread.

    #647476

    postsemgirl
    Member

    I was traveling on Continental to Eretz yisroel and I was sitting in the middle of a group of missionaries- don’t ask- and there were many Chassidim on the flight. They got up to daven and the flight attendent asked everyone to sit down because of turbulence and they didn’t because they were in middle of davening. The missionaries, who knew I was Jewish, asked me questions and started mocking and making fun of the Chassidim. It’s one thing to ask questions but it’s another thing to make fun and make

    the whole plane be upset.

    I think it was a big chillul Hashem. I don’t know but I think they were wrong. I don’t think you have to daven with a minyan if it’s going to cause the whole plane to be angry at you and a big chillul Hashem. I could be wrong.

    Anybody?

    #647477

    noitallmr
    Participant

    Bottom line is that to Daven with a Chilul Hashem is a Mitzva Habo Beaveiro- a Mitzva that comes about due to an Aveiro and therefore should definitely not be done. A Person should use their own sense what situation is presentable for Teffilah.

    #647478

    chaverim
    Member

    lesschumras: Not at all. If you’re Rav is opposed to davening with a minyan, then by all means stay by your seat. I won’t begrudge you for it. BUT when you see me and the rest of us, who have Rabbonim like Maran Hagoen Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg shlitta that do insist we daven with a minyan in the air, don’t begrudge us or throw a fit. (Not that if you do it’ll stop any us anyways.)

    #647479

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Chaverim,

    I don’t begrudge you at all. All I’m saying is that the next time someone keeps brings only one gadol in support of a kulah , that you extend the same courtesy and don’t begrudge them or throw a fit

    #647480

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Also, there are no disagreements amongst the Poskim here:

    I believe they would all agree that if there are no safety issues and the minyan will not cause a disturbance or Chillul Hashem, and the airline is ok with it; and you can handle it so that your kavana is undisturbed; then a minyan would be in order.

    But Rav Scheinberg and Rav Wosner both said that causing a disturbance is reason enough to daven in your seat without a minyan. So vos huks du a chynik?

    #647481

    Jax
    Member

    i found this article, what are your thoughts on this?!

    To give a concrete example of the ramifications of this question, consider the following:

    However, i make the following calculation. Since I was flying east, I lost some daylight hours. I will have a total of 11 hours of daylight which began at 8am Israel time. Using those figures, sof zman tefilla comes out to be just before noon, and I will have time to daven after collecting my belongings.

    The same type of calculation can come into play in a number of ways, with real halakhic ramifications. The question is a fundamental one, though: are zmanim calculated based on geographical realities or human realities? Is it about the place or the person?

    Anyone address this?

    #647482

    chaverim
    Member

    Hagoen Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg shlitta said he davens with a minyan on an airplane “all the time.” While strictly speaking it might be permitted to pray at your seat, Rabbi Scheinberg PREFERS that one daven with a MINYAN, but quietly in a way that doesn’t disturb others.

    Hagoen Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg is 99 years old. Apparently he is “able to handle standing up in an airborne plane for more than a few minutes.”

    #647483

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    chaverim:

    I also have a feeling that Harav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg doesn’t sit in coach 🙂 Pehaps in first class, with no women (as is known that the Gedolim have when they fly) its easy to daven on the plane!

    #647484

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Plane travel was totally different years ago; much more informal. I remember United Airlines holding my plane that was about to take off one time when I arrived late; this would never happen today. You can hardly apply the same criteria post 9/11. I will try to find out what Rav Scheinberg would advise people to do in current times.

    The Poskim mentioned in prior posts who daven in their seats without a minyan, many years ago may have davened in the smoking section in the back of the plane as well, but not now.

    #647485

    situations can change, when cruising at 37000 feet over the atlantic, with fine weather, then it would be more understandable. as that in case of anything then they could go back to their seats right away (and i find the case of the chassidem very disturbing). but still they should ALWAYS comply to anything the cabin crew should instruct.

    #647486

    Ish52
    Member

    my rebbe once said here is no problem of chillul hashem, there is only a problem of chillul Hashem if someone sees you doing something wrong, if you dou something that is correct it doesnt make a difference if a goy thinks your doing something wrong, IF ITS RIGHT ITS NOT A CHILLUL HASHEM,

    #647488

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Ish52,

    Blocking aisles and access to bathrooms is NEVER right and is a chillul Hashem .Your logic, getting to minyan on time is correct so if I oush people out of the way and knock them down to do it it’s not a chilul Hashem

    #647489

    chaverim
    Member

    Ish52’s quote from his Rebbe put it very well.

    Some Jews are more embarrassed of yiddishkeit than are some gentiles!

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