March 15, 2022 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2069561call me rabbi jParticipant
recently, the Senate passed a bill to make daylight savings time permanent. This means that in certain places at certain times of the year, you wont be able to daven shachris till for example 9:00. this is a serious problem. what does everybody think of this.March 16, 2022 1:25 am at 1:25 am #2069644
When is alos hashachar? Putting on talis and tefilin might be a bigger problem.March 16, 2022 1:26 am at 1:26 am #2069649
I already contacted my representative (for the first time) about this asking him to oppose the bill in the House. It really upsets me that they are changing the current system.March 16, 2022 1:30 am at 1:30 am #2069656
let it be our biggest challenge. Just learn chasidus for 3 hours before.March 16, 2022 1:32 am at 1:32 am #2069661☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
It passed the Senate but is still unlikely to become law.March 16, 2022 1:34 am at 1:34 am #2069667isaacmalulParticipant
I think sunrise will be pushed to latest around 820 which you can only say Amida at 820 but can start Davening much earlier. After amida you need another 2.0-30 minutes to finish Davening so you won’t be done until aroaround 845-850 which will be problematic for those who have to go to work. Also learning will have to change to before Davening to accommodate for this.March 16, 2022 11:08 am at 11:08 am #2069717ujmParticipant
For some people 9:00 might still be too early.March 16, 2022 11:15 am at 11:15 am #2069745ubiquitinParticipant
I think klal yisroel managed when this was done in the 70s we will survive this.
The time you mentioned was in NYC, cities in the western part of time zone (eg Detroit) will be much later reaching 900 AM in late dec/early janMarch 16, 2022 11:15 am at 11:15 am #2069779
There was a secret meeting between the radical Vasikim lobbyists and key members of Congress to rush this legislation through the Senate before normal yidden even had a chance to express their opposition. Rumor has it that unless amended, it would add a least 1 hour to the fast on yom kippur, upset the lactation cycle of cows providing chalav yisroel and totally screw up the website of the White Shul. There is a Million Macher March planned for Washington D.C. as soon as the Trucker protest leaves.March 16, 2022 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #2069799akupermaParticipant
Not the end of the world. For frum men working outside our community, it will be a problem getting to minyan in the morning (possible solution, have more “downtown” minyanim, closer to the places of employment). But those working for Jewish organizations or businesses, or teleworking, can adjust hours. And of course, women won’t be affected.
It will give people more time to get home on Friday afternoon, and more time to finish Shabbos preparations in the winter.March 16, 2022 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #20698022scentsParticipant
Would it really add an hour, or would our clocks read a different time than we would otherwise expect it to read?
It seems that the only things that will be affected are those that are tied to a time, such as normal 9-5 business hours. Otherwise, everything carries on.March 16, 2022 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2069854MosheFromMidwoodParticipant
Right now people do daven an hour before netz, and given how many people are working from home now it may be a lesser problem than the last time this was tried. I don’t think lawmakers will vote this down for a tiny segment of a small part of the population. When you have people who routinely daven at 8 am or later, this becomes a minor issue even for many frum peopleMarch 16, 2022 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #2069855anIsraeliYidParticipant
In London, sunrise in late December/early January is as late as 8:06 AM, and in Amsterdam, it’s as late as 8:50 AM, and that’s on standard time. What do people in those places do? If I remember correctly, people in the NY area in the 1970s went to Minyanim in the area where they worked due to this – so I guess places like the Wall Street Synagogue, or places on the Lower East Side, will get an influx of Mispalelim.
For purely personal reason, I like the US having year-round DST, since it makes the time difference between NY and Israel only six hours for part of the year – much better for work (two overlapping work hours vs. one) and for personal reasons if I want to speak with people in the US.
an Israeli YidMarch 16, 2022 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #2069866
The Agudah also points out another problem of endangering children who are having to go to school when it is dark.March 16, 2022 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #2069885follick2Participant
school schedules can be adjusted to accommodate child safetyMarch 16, 2022 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2069876
The Agudah press release cites several long-standing arguments that have been invoked for decades against year-round DST, some of which have been shown to be incorrect and others simply viewed as “collateral damage” offset by the projected benefits. As Moshe from Midwood noted, Congress is unlikely to legislate around the inconveniences incurred by a minority of yidden just as they no longer are captive to the views on this subject held by a few thousand Dairy Farmers whose cows don’t hold by DST.March 16, 2022 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #2069904LostsparkParticipant
I’m all for this, Baruch HaShem for remote work.
No more 8-4, 9-5s for me.
Besides the health cost of shifting the time every year is ridiculous.March 16, 2022 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #2069892ubiquitinParticipant
“The Agudah also points out another problem of endangering children who are having to go to school when it is dark.”
They need filler so it isnt just about our unique needs
especially when you consider y they don’t explain why going in the dark is more dangerous than coming home in the dark, which they currently do, and DST would alleviateMarch 16, 2022 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #2069916Amil ZolaParticipant
Again, I don’t live on the east coast. I do live several degrees (lat) higher than NYC. For a few years I was commuting to work and got on a vanpool at 6am (before sunrise) and I got home after 5pm (well after sunset most winter days. I did not do well without seeing daylight (except through office windows) five days a week.
As to mens prayer times, well we didn’t always have DST or time zones or a means of keeping time, a solution will be found.March 17, 2022 1:01 am at 1:01 am #2069930
” As Moshe from Midwood noted, Congress is unlikely to legislate around the inconveniences incurred by a minority of yidden just as they no longer are captive to the views on this subject held by a few thousand Dairy Farmers whose cows don’t hold by DST.”
These aren’t the only groups that oppose it. The National Association of Convenience Stores, for one, opposes it. Educators from around the country are concerned about kids going to school in early morning darkness. Health experts believe that standard time is better for keeping a healthier sleep cycle. I am not saying that there are no benefits for permanent DST but there are a lot of concerns as well.
Also note that this was tried in 1974-1975 and was greeted with strong backlash.March 17, 2022 10:18 am at 10:18 am #2069960
Marxist: You are correct and I could add several other groups opposed but the vast majority of lobbying groups are supportive, there are health studies showing lower cardiac and other illnesses during DST, etc. More importantly, the politics of this issue have changed substantially since the 1970s and this legislation is likely to become law within the next several months and take effect in 2023.March 17, 2022 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #2070008
Btw, it is shown that people who live in the Eastern side of the time zone have higher IQ and income than people in the western part. This is shown by comparing nearby cities on the border of time zones.
Presumably because people in the East get more sleep in the morning, and in general.March 17, 2022 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #2070009
We should also stop lobbying for an interest of a small group of people IF it negatively affects a lot of other people. Unbecoming for religious people.March 17, 2022 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #2070020
“people who live in the Eastern side of the time zone have higher IQ and income than people in the western part…”
Empirical support for this hypothesis is found in the GPS coordinates of 5T which is much further east than BP, Willy, Monsey and Lakewood.March 17, 2022 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #2070031
“Empirical support for this hypothesis is found in the GPS coordinates of 5T which is much further east than BP, Willy, Monsey and Lakewood.”
This made my day.March 17, 2022 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #2070036
Gadol, the difference is, no pun intended, “minute”, but you are right most centers of Jewish population is on the east side of the zones: whole NE, Chicago, Denver, LA, Vegas (but so does Alabama) v. westerly Detroit and Atlanta. The actual researcu was done on pairs of towns on the borders of states where time zone is changing. There are other possible factors though:
– most world cities have poorer East due to prevailing westerly wind, so eastern of two nearby towns will be more polluted.
– in America, people moved west in search of opportunities, and the western of the two towns (or states) may consist of those who were more active.March 18, 2022 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2070048truthishiddenParticipant
For those that are glad that the time difference will be only 6 hours to Eretz Yisroel: If the US signs this into law you can be sure Isreal will be right behind them.March 18, 2022 9:36 am at 9:36 am #2070050
Marxist: More sechel, more $$, more gashmius (primarily in the Hampdens which of course is the far, far east of 5T) and surprisingly, even more ruchniyus although the latter data is subject to conflicting interpretations.
All of this validates the admonition as famously articulated by
R’ Horace Greely: “גיי מזרח יונג מענטש”March 18, 2022 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #2070287
Note that smarter Easterners are only in disconnected areas. When you have same town, the eater part is the dirtier one, getting the ruach with pollution and covid from the west. So, if you hold that greater new york is just one big village, then Easterners are on the receiving side. Maybe they also get shirayim of Divrei Torah first said in Monsey.March 20, 2022 7:12 am at 7:12 am #2070556ari-freeParticipant
Why not just start school later?
I’m tired of changing clocks but I’d rather have permanent standard time instead of permanent dstMarch 20, 2022 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2070803
I agree that if anything should be permanent it should be standard time which is more in sync with our natural circadian rhythm. I do like getting the extra hour of sunlight in the spring/summer but if people don’t want the hassle of changing the clocks twice a year (I don’t fully understand why it is such a big deal to have one’s schedule disrupted by an hour, it’s not like people’s schedules aren’t interrupted all the time with various events, work, etc.) it should be set to standard time.March 20, 2022 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #2070946
> I don’t fully understand why it is such a big deal to have one’s schedule disrupted by an hour,
Circadian rhythm is a big deal. When you have millions of people disrupted on the same day, things will go wrong. Increase in accidents and deaths from accidents seem to be in 5-15% range for 2 weeks, this seems on order of 100 people. Judging by how society approaches much higher covid deaths, nobody will be in a hurry to change the law for “just a hundred people” despite Gemora Sanhedrin saying that one who save one life saves the whole world …March 24, 2022 12:44 am at 12:44 am #2072005
Each system has its pros and cons. Daylight Savings time is not in accord with our circadian rhythm but there is reason to believe it lowers crime rates (less nighttime to commit crimes). Permanent standard time may not be as good for the economy but is better for sleep. The change in clocks causes chaos in a person’s system for a bit of time which can cause traffic accidents (which is obviously horrible but again one needs to think about possible health effects and how that affects mortality with permanent dst). However, as sleep expert Phyliss Zee was quoted in the Washington Post:
“Zee said her “heart sank” when she saw the news of the legislation passing. “I thought there would be more of a discussion, that it wouldn’t be as unanimous.” Of the three potential time systems for the country to be on — permanent standard, biannual switching and permanent daylight saving time — she said, the last is “probably the worst choice.””March 24, 2022 10:15 am at 10:15 am #2072062
Ultimately, the issue will be decided on its political merits on a particular day. If Pelosi put it on the House floor when they return from their DWP next week, it would likely pass by a 70-80 vote plurality. However, given the Dem’s inability to move forward on the “progressive agenda” (aka paid parental leave, child tax credits, Covid vaccine funding, voting rights etc), her caucus is in no hurry to rush a vote on legislation one frustrated Dem referenced as the “soccer moms agenda”. Ultimately, it will pass but probably not in the next month or two.March 24, 2022 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #2072252
“Ultimately, it will pass but probably not in the next month or two.”
But will Biden sign it?March 24, 2022 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #2072283
But will Biden sign it?
He will check with John Kerry as to whether it will facilitate tikun olam. I’m not certain that netz/alos haschachar will be part of that assessment.March 25, 2022 12:12 am at 12:12 am #2072289
I suggest that after passing a bill to fund Ukrainian air defense, Congress debate DST until the elections and not pass any more bills giving taxpayers’ money to their supporters. At the end, they should make it so confusing that low-informational voters come one hour late to vote in November, reducing D- vote by 10%. Oops, forgot the mail-in vote, but still ….March 28, 2022 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #2073361
“what does everybody think of this”
I saw in the media that the sleep “–>Experts®™©<—” [insert gong and angelic choir sounds] have said that eliminating the bi-annual transitions is a good thing, but that we should go to full-year standard time, not daylight time, as the former is better for sleep. Sorry folks, but Science hath Spoken, and thou must Believe in the capital-S Science and Listen to the Experts, for anyone who dost not obeyeth is a heretic and must be banned from public life. Shuls should check the watches of mispallelim at the door and turn away any who have their watches set an hour ahead of standard time, for they have had less sleep and are more likely to get into accidents and are a clear and present danger to society.
Keep midday Noon!March 28, 2022 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #2073414
” Sorry folks, but Science hath Spoken, and thou must Believe in the capital-S Science and Listen to the Experts, for anyone who dost not obeyeth is a heretic and must be banned from public life.”
I think you would like the work of Paul Feyerabend.March 28, 2022 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #2073440
This discussion sounds like a pure avoda zora. How is a circle on your hand with 2 sticks, or numbers on your computer, materially affect your life?! Run your life according to the Jewish sun hours and do not pay attention to goyishe times. I’ll try tomorrow telling my wife that I’ll be home at mincha gedola and I hope to be able to report the results of this experiment.March 29, 2022 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2073551
“How is a circle on your hand with 2 sticks, or numbers on your computer, materially affect your life?!”
So the problem is not that we Yidden care about the circle with 2 sticks, we don’t. However, the goyishe bossman does, and tells us to be seated in our fuzzy-walled cells interacting with the glowing rectangle in the morning by the time the short stick is pointing left and is orthogonal to or at an obtuse angle to the longer stick pointing straight up. And now they’re proposing to advance the rotational cycle of these sticks during the cold season so that they reach the bossman’s allotted time too early to daven shacharis.
“I’ll try tomorrow telling my wife that I’ll be home at mincha gedola and I hope to be able to report the results of this experiment.”
I bet it’d go over better in December than in June.March 29, 2022 10:25 am at 10:25 am #2073561
There is story that when a clock was brought in to the Chasam Sofer’s shul, it was broken into pieces.March 29, 2022 10:25 am at 10:25 am #2073554
“most world cities have poorer East due to prevailing westerly wind, so eastern of two nearby towns will be more polluted”
This only holds in the midlatitudes.March 30, 2022 12:27 am at 12:27 am #2074010
Avram, thanks for this important correction. Westerly wind is from Lat 35 deg and up and is indeed relevant to European/American history. Yerushalaim, Bavel, Baghdad are around and below 35 and prevailing wind is opposite – NorthEast, not West. I presume these areas that are close to 35 have smallest effects. I think Bava Basra discusses directions of davening and wind.March 30, 2022 12:27 am at 12:27 am #2074022
yes, indeed Bava Basra 25 (R Akiva) says that tanneries should not be in the west so that wind does not bring them into the city.
This does not seem to match the low latitude, but wind directions depend on other factors also, like sea. Prevailing winds in Israel are indeed W and WNW. In Yerushalaim, it is West, Except on Rosh Hashsana and Shvues where North is a little more frequent than West. Bnei Brak (aka Tel Aviv) is even more Westerly.
In Bavel, winds are more North than West, so not sure what Gemora makes out of it, but most Rishonim lived with westerly wind, so seems nobody disagrees. I do not see any discussion of this in commentaries, even Steinsalz, does Artscroll mention that this halakha may depend on location!?March 30, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2074153WolfishMusingsParticipant
I’ve often heard that farmers hate DST since the extra hour of sunlight is harmful to the crops.
The WolfMarch 31, 2022 12:59 am at 12:59 am #2074310GoldilocksParticipant
And you believe that???March 31, 2022 1:02 am at 1:02 am #2074318
Indeed, and moving to DST year round will make global warming much worse too 😝March 31, 2022 6:15 am at 6:15 am #2074410ujmParticipant
Wolf: Are these the kinds of jokes you share during laining? (One of your admitted aveiras is constantly talking during laining.)
P.S. Still waiting for your response in the King Charles and Queen Camilla thread.March 31, 2022 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #2074506
Rumor has it that the cows don’t hold by DST and need to be milked on their regular schedule….bummer for the dairy farmers, perhaps good news for those growing veggies
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