Daylight Savings time

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Daylight Savings time

Tagged: 

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 59 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #2069561
    call me rabbi j
    Participant

    recently, the Senate passed a bill to make daylight savings time permanent. This means that in certain places at certain times of the year, you wont be able to daven shachris till for example 9:00. this is a serious problem. what does everybody think of this.

    #2069644
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When is alos hashachar? Putting on talis and tefilin might be a bigger problem.

    #2069649
    Marxist
    Participant

    I already contacted my representative (for the first time) about this asking him to oppose the bill in the House. It really upsets me that they are changing the current system.

    #2069656

    let it be our biggest challenge. Just learn chasidus for 3 hours before.

    #2069661
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It passed the Senate but is still unlikely to become law.

    #2069667
    isaacmalul
    Participant

    I think sunrise will be pushed to latest around 820 which you can only say Amida at 820 but can start Davening much earlier. After amida you need another 2.0-30 minutes to finish Davening so you won’t be done until aroaround 845-850 which will be problematic for those who have to go to work. Also learning will have to change to before Davening to accommodate for this.

    #2069717
    ujm
    Participant

    For some people 9:00 might still be too early.

    #2069745
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I think klal yisroel managed when this was done in the 70s we will survive this.

    Isaac
    The time you mentioned was in NYC, cities in the western part of time zone (eg Detroit) will be much later reaching 900 AM in late dec/early jan

    #2069779
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There was a secret meeting between the radical Vasikim lobbyists and key members of Congress to rush this legislation through the Senate before normal yidden even had a chance to express their opposition. Rumor has it that unless amended, it would add a least 1 hour to the fast on yom kippur, upset the lactation cycle of cows providing chalav yisroel and totally screw up the website of the White Shul. There is a Million Macher March planned for Washington D.C. as soon as the Trucker protest leaves.

    #2069799
    akuperma
    Participant

    Not the end of the world. For frum men working outside our community, it will be a problem getting to minyan in the morning (possible solution, have more “downtown” minyanim, closer to the places of employment). But those working for Jewish organizations or businesses, or teleworking, can adjust hours. And of course, women won’t be affected.

    It will give people more time to get home on Friday afternoon, and more time to finish Shabbos preparations in the winter.

    #2069802
    2scents
    Participant

    Would it really add an hour, or would our clocks read a different time than we would otherwise expect it to read?

    It seems that the only things that will be affected are those that are tied to a time, such as normal 9-5 business hours. Otherwise, everything carries on.

    #2069854
    MosheFromMidwood
    Participant

    Right now people do daven an hour before netz, and given how many people are working from home now it may be a lesser problem than the last time this was tried. I don’t think lawmakers will vote this down for a tiny segment of a small part of the population. When you have people who routinely daven at 8 am or later, this becomes a minor issue even for many frum people

    #2069855
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    In London, sunrise in late December/early January is as late as 8:06 AM, and in Amsterdam, it’s as late as 8:50 AM, and that’s on standard time. What do people in those places do? If I remember correctly, people in the NY area in the 1970s went to Minyanim in the area where they worked due to this – so I guess places like the Wall Street Synagogue, or places on the Lower East Side, will get an influx of Mispalelim.

    For purely personal reason, I like the US having year-round DST, since it makes the time difference between NY and Israel only six hours for part of the year – much better for work (two overlapping work hours vs. one) and for personal reasons if I want to speak with people in the US.

    an Israeli Yid

    #2069866
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Agudah also points out another problem of endangering children who are having to go to school when it is dark.

    #2069885
    follick2
    Participant

    school schedules can be adjusted to accommodate child safety

    #2069876
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The Agudah press release cites several long-standing arguments that have been invoked for decades against year-round DST, some of which have been shown to be incorrect and others simply viewed as “collateral damage” offset by the projected benefits. As Moshe from Midwood noted, Congress is unlikely to legislate around the inconveniences incurred by a minority of yidden just as they no longer are captive to the views on this subject held by a few thousand Dairy Farmers whose cows don’t hold by DST.

    #2069904
    Lostspark
    Participant

    I’m all for this, Baruch HaShem for remote work.

    No more 8-4, 9-5s for me.

    Besides the health cost of shifting the time every year is ridiculous.

    #2069892
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “The Agudah also points out another problem of endangering children who are having to go to school when it is dark.”

    They need filler so it isnt just about our unique needs
    especially when you consider y they don’t explain why going in the dark is more dangerous than coming home in the dark, which they currently do, and DST would alleviate

    #2069916
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Again, I don’t live on the east coast. I do live several degrees (lat) higher than NYC. For a few years I was commuting to work and got on a vanpool at 6am (before sunrise) and I got home after 5pm (well after sunset most winter days. I did not do well without seeing daylight (except through office windows) five days a week.

    As to mens prayer times, well we didn’t always have DST or time zones or a means of keeping time, a solution will be found.

    #2069930
    Marxist
    Participant

    ” As Moshe from Midwood noted, Congress is unlikely to legislate around the inconveniences incurred by a minority of yidden just as they no longer are captive to the views on this subject held by a few thousand Dairy Farmers whose cows don’t hold by DST.”

    These aren’t the only groups that oppose it. The National Association of Convenience Stores, for one, opposes it. Educators from around the country are concerned about kids going to school in early morning darkness. Health experts believe that standard time is better for keeping a healthier sleep cycle. I am not saying that there are no benefits for permanent DST but there are a lot of concerns as well.
    Also note that this was tried in 1974-1975 and was greeted with strong backlash.

    #2069960
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Marxist: You are correct and I could add several other groups opposed but the vast majority of lobbying groups are supportive, there are health studies showing lower cardiac and other illnesses during DST, etc. More importantly, the politics of this issue have changed substantially since the 1970s and this legislation is likely to become law within the next several months and take effect in 2023.

    #2070008

    Btw, it is shown that people who live in the Eastern side of the time zone have higher IQ and income than people in the western part. This is shown by comparing nearby cities on the border of time zones.
    Presumably because people in the East get more sleep in the morning, and in general.

    #2070009

    We should also stop lobbying for an interest of a small group of people IF it negatively affects a lot of other people. Unbecoming for religious people.

    #2070020
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “people who live in the Eastern side of the time zone have higher IQ and income than people in the western part…”

    Empirical support for this hypothesis is found in the GPS coordinates of 5T which is much further east than BP, Willy, Monsey and Lakewood.

    #2070031
    Marxist
    Participant

    “Empirical support for this hypothesis is found in the GPS coordinates of 5T which is much further east than BP, Willy, Monsey and Lakewood.”

    This made my day.

    #2070036

    Gadol, the difference is, no pun intended, “minute”, but you are right most centers of Jewish population is on the east side of the zones: whole NE, Chicago, Denver, LA, Vegas (but so does Alabama) v. westerly Detroit and Atlanta. The actual researcu was done on pairs of towns on the borders of states where time zone is changing. There are other possible factors though:
    – most world cities have poorer East due to prevailing westerly wind, so eastern of two nearby towns will be more polluted.
    – in America, people moved west in search of opportunities, and the western of the two towns (or states) may consist of those who were more active.

    #2070048
    truthishidden
    Participant

    For those that are glad that the time difference will be only 6 hours to Eretz Yisroel: If the US signs this into law you can be sure Isreal will be right behind them.

    #2070050
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Marxist: More sechel, more $$, more gashmius (primarily in the Hampdens which of course is the far, far east of 5T) and surprisingly, even more ruchniyus although the latter data is subject to conflicting interpretations.
    All of this validates the admonition as famously articulated by
    R’ Horace Greely: “גיי מזרח יונג מענטש”

    #2070287

    Note that smarter Easterners are only in disconnected areas. When you have same town, the eater part is the dirtier one, getting the ruach with pollution and covid from the west. So, if you hold that greater new york is just one big village, then Easterners are on the receiving side. Maybe they also get shirayim of Divrei Torah first said in Monsey.

    #2070556
    ari-free
    Participant

    Why not just start school later?
    I’m tired of changing clocks but I’d rather have permanent standard time instead of permanent dst

    #2070803
    Marxist
    Participant

    @ari-free

    I agree that if anything should be permanent it should be standard time which is more in sync with our natural circadian rhythm. I do like getting the extra hour of sunlight in the spring/summer but if people don’t want the hassle of changing the clocks twice a year (I don’t fully understand why it is such a big deal to have one’s schedule disrupted by an hour, it’s not like people’s schedules aren’t interrupted all the time with various events, work, etc.) it should be set to standard time.

    #2070946

    > I don’t fully understand why it is such a big deal to have one’s schedule disrupted by an hour,

    Circadian rhythm is a big deal. When you have millions of people disrupted on the same day, things will go wrong. Increase in accidents and deaths from accidents seem to be in 5-15% range for 2 weeks, this seems on order of 100 people. Judging by how society approaches much higher covid deaths, nobody will be in a hurry to change the law for “just a hundred people” despite Gemora Sanhedrin saying that one who save one life saves the whole world …

    #2072005
    Marxist
    Participant

    @Always_Ask_Questions

    Each system has its pros and cons. Daylight Savings time is not in accord with our circadian rhythm but there is reason to believe it lowers crime rates (less nighttime to commit crimes). Permanent standard time may not be as good for the economy but is better for sleep. The change in clocks causes chaos in a person’s system for a bit of time which can cause traffic accidents (which is obviously horrible but again one needs to think about possible health effects and how that affects mortality with permanent dst). However, as sleep expert Phyliss Zee was quoted in the Washington Post:

    “Zee said her “heart sank” when she saw the news of the legislation passing. “I thought there would be more of a discussion, that it wouldn’t be as unanimous.” Of the three potential time systems for the country to be on — permanent standard, biannual switching and permanent daylight saving time — she said, the last is “probably the worst choice.””

    #2072062
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Ultimately, the issue will be decided on its political merits on a particular day. If Pelosi put it on the House floor when they return from their DWP next week, it would likely pass by a 70-80 vote plurality. However, given the Dem’s inability to move forward on the “progressive agenda” (aka paid parental leave, child tax credits, Covid vaccine funding, voting rights etc), her caucus is in no hurry to rush a vote on legislation one frustrated Dem referenced as the “soccer moms agenda”. Ultimately, it will pass but probably not in the next month or two.

    #2072252
    Marxist
    Participant

    “Ultimately, it will pass but probably not in the next month or two.”

    But will Biden sign it?

    #2072283
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    But will Biden sign it?
    He will check with John Kerry as to whether it will facilitate tikun olam. I’m not certain that netz/alos haschachar will be part of that assessment.

    #2072289

    I suggest that after passing a bill to fund Ukrainian air defense, Congress debate DST until the elections and not pass any more bills giving taxpayers’ money to their supporters. At the end, they should make it so confusing that low-informational voters come one hour late to vote in November, reducing D- vote by 10%. Oops, forgot the mail-in vote, but still ….

    #2073361
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    “what does everybody think of this”

    I saw in the media that the sleep “–>Experts®™©<—” [insert gong and angelic choir sounds] have said that eliminating the bi-annual transitions is a good thing, but that we should go to full-year standard time, not daylight time, as the former is better for sleep. Sorry folks, but Science hath Spoken, and thou must Believe in the capital-S Science and Listen to the Experts, for anyone who dost not obeyeth is a heretic and must be banned from public life. Shuls should check the watches of mispallelim at the door and turn away any who have their watches set an hour ahead of standard time, for they have had less sleep and are more likely to get into accidents and are a clear and present danger to society.

    Keep midday Noon!

    #2073414
    Marxist
    Participant

    ” Sorry folks, but Science hath Spoken, and thou must Believe in the capital-S Science and Listen to the Experts, for anyone who dost not obeyeth is a heretic and must be banned from public life.”

    I think you would like the work of Paul Feyerabend.

    #2073440

    This discussion sounds like a pure avoda zora. How is a circle on your hand with 2 sticks, or numbers on your computer, materially affect your life?! Run your life according to the Jewish sun hours and do not pay attention to goyishe times. I’ll try tomorrow telling my wife that I’ll be home at mincha gedola and I hope to be able to report the results of this experiment.

    #2073551
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “How is a circle on your hand with 2 sticks, or numbers on your computer, materially affect your life?!”

    So the problem is not that we Yidden care about the circle with 2 sticks, we don’t. However, the goyishe bossman does, and tells us to be seated in our fuzzy-walled cells interacting with the glowing rectangle in the morning by the time the short stick is pointing left and is orthogonal to or at an obtuse angle to the longer stick pointing straight up. And now they’re proposing to advance the rotational cycle of these sticks during the cold season so that they reach the bossman’s allotted time too early to daven shacharis.

    “I’ll try tomorrow telling my wife that I’ll be home at mincha gedola and I hope to be able to report the results of this experiment.”

    I bet it’d go over better in December than in June.

    #2073561
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is story that when a clock was brought in to the Chasam Sofer’s shul, it was broken into pieces.

    #2073554
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “most world cities have poorer East due to prevailing westerly wind, so eastern of two nearby towns will be more polluted”

    This only holds in the midlatitudes.

    #2074010

    Avram, thanks for this important correction. Westerly wind is from Lat 35 deg and up and is indeed relevant to European/American history. Yerushalaim, Bavel, Baghdad are around and below 35 and prevailing wind is opposite – NorthEast, not West. I presume these areas that are close to 35 have smallest effects. I think Bava Basra discusses directions of davening and wind.

    #2074022

    yes, indeed Bava Basra 25 (R Akiva) says that tanneries should not be in the west so that wind does not bring them into the city.

    This does not seem to match the low latitude, but wind directions depend on other factors also, like sea. Prevailing winds in Israel are indeed W and WNW. In Yerushalaim, it is West, Except on Rosh Hashsana and Shvues where North is a little more frequent than West. Bnei Brak (aka Tel Aviv) is even more Westerly.

    In Bavel, winds are more North than West, so not sure what Gemora makes out of it, but most Rishonim lived with westerly wind, so seems nobody disagrees. I do not see any discussion of this in commentaries, even Steinsalz, does Artscroll mention that this halakha may depend on location!?

    #2074153
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’ve often heard that farmers hate DST since the extra hour of sunlight is harmful to the crops.

    The Wolf

    #2074310
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Wolfish musings;
    And you believe that???

    #2074318
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    Indeed, and moving to DST year round will make global warming much worse too 😝

    #2074410
    ujm
    Participant

    Wolf: Are these the kinds of jokes you share during laining? (One of your admitted aveiras is constantly talking during laining.)

    P.S. Still waiting for your response in the King Charles and Queen Camilla thread.

    #2074506
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Rumor has it that the cows don’t hold by DST and need to be milked on their regular schedule….bummer for the dairy farmers, perhaps good news for those growing veggies

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 59 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.