February 28, 2013 5:31 am at 5:31 am #933933
In the old days, you could go to any bakery and get bread because bread was always just flour, water and yeast. But in America, they came up with the idea of adding milk, eggs, lard and all kinds of other things to their bread.February 28, 2013 5:59 am at 5:59 am #933934
The OUKosher website lists different facilities for different kinds of muffins under their supervision.
I don’t see that. All I see are a list of products that the OU may certify. There isn’t any indication of where the Kosher products are made or if these products are always Kosher, in fact the certificates I saw all list DDs corporate HQ address and state that the OU symbol is required.February 28, 2013 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #933935
Actually, if you ask rabbi Belsky, he will tell you that you’re in the middle of nowhere, you can buy plain bagels in any store.February 28, 2013 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #933936
If you look, the OU will say that this kind comes from “Maplehurst” and so on.February 28, 2013 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #933937
Mr. Doniel -“What adulteration can possibly occur in the store of muffins and donuts?”
I think I mentioned this in the other topic. I personally don’t see what’s wrong with eating these donuts or muffins, but I’m not a Poisek. But the impression I’m getting from you is that you can assume that any donut or muffin in any DD is kosher. This is by far the furthest from Truth. If you know for a fact that the store only gets from the Kosher regional bakery -then fine. But there are many DD’s out there that bake themselves. I mentioned that the Kosher DD’s in Baltimore and in Lakewood do in fact bake for themselves -so before they got their Hechsheirim you’d probably eat there. And even if you wouldn’t, by coming here with this topic, people reading this topic who don’t know better -you probably are being Nichshal them to eat Tarfus!February 28, 2013 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #933938
A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Someone I know in the restaurant business told me that every 5th or so DD does the baking for the other stores in its region. Even if the region is larger then 5 stores, as I mentioned before, the cartons that get delivered to the stores are clearly marked with an OU. Interesting, but their egg sandwich box also has the OU. Of course, those are heated up in their convection ovens, same as the bacon, ham et al, so no matter how lenient you chose to be, there has to be a limit! BTW, most of the stores I’ve been are run by Indians, not Muslims.February 28, 2013 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #933939
Health- And even if you wouldn’t, by coming here with this topic, people reading this topic who don’t know better -you probably are being Nichshal them to eat Tarfus!
How many times do people have to hear that nobiody can pasken halacha l’maysa from the CR. No matter how knowledgable a poster seems. Any question as to how to act and what to do should be asked to your LOR. Course that’s only if I’m not available.March 3, 2013 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #933940
I spoke to Rabbi Mehlman last week, as he provides the hechsher for the New York DD (that have a hechsher). He said that about 2-3 years ago DD changed their procedure. They now ship the donuts (and other stuff) partially baked to each franchisee and each franchisee must finish baking it. Rabbi Mehlman said that DD franchisees without a hechsher can bake their kosher and non-kosher items together.
(He said it was better under the older system, as far as kashrus, for reasons I didn’t quite understand. He also said some DD franchisees still use the older system, but there is no way to know which are which offhand.)March 3, 2013 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #933941
Do they bake treifos in the same oven as these items?
If they’re baking cheese bagels in the same oven, then that may not be a concern necessarily, since cheese uses vegetarian or microbial rennet, and is actually kosher per the shita of Rabbeinu Tam (Tosfos Avodah Zarah 35b, s.v. chada). R’ Soloveitchik held like R’ Tam, le chatchila.
Furthermore, from Pesachim 76b, the Ran says that Levi permits the roasting of the kosher meat in the same oven as the non-kosher even Le chatchila. This is borne out by the Talmud Yerushalmi (Terumos 10:2) which says so explicitly. The geonim and most of the rishonim pasken like Levi be dieved.
In the machlokes Rav and Levi, most hold like Levi- reiach from an oven is insignificant, and such food is kosher; see Rambam, Maachalot Asurot 15:33; Rif, Chulin 32a and Rashi, Pesachim 76b s.v. amar lecha, even if only be dieved.
We are still left with issues of pat yisrael and bishul akum, though.March 3, 2013 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #933942
somewhereone – Don’t tell this to some posters here. Tov Sheyewho Shoggegim M’sheyewho Mazidim!March 3, 2013 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #933943
I only eat personally from a DD under Mehlman’s hechsher. But, the halachic issues need to be clarified.March 3, 2013 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #933944
R’ Soloveitchik held like R’ Tam, le chatchila.
Someone else indicated this to me as well. I would love to see a source for this claim, as it is a big chiddush and a game changer.March 3, 2013 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #933945
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Rd, that’s if they don’t touch. Who says they are careful?August 29, 2019 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1781405
Man, i would really like this to keep being discussed. All i want is a pumpkin muffin but the DD right near my office isn’t certified kosher :/August 29, 2019 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1781460
“but the DD right near my office isn’t certified kosher :/”
so certify it. find out where the muffin comes from, find out if the manufacturer is certified and take ift from thereAugust 29, 2019 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1781472
How do i find out? I feel like the workers in that branch don’t actually know this info, rather they just see a truck that comes every morning and food gets stockedAugust 31, 2019 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1781734
If I’m not mistaken they do bake some stuff in some stores ( they get a powder mix ) perhaps not all of the stores do that and some get packed stuff. Or perhaps muffins are different.
Some one mention ice cream or frozen yogurt, that’s different because it’s cold never heated, that’s why many stores have a heksher on only a few flavorsSeptember 1, 2019 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1781855
They use the same scoop for the kosher flavors as they use for the non-kosher flavors.September 1, 2019 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1781943
Last I checked, all baked goods are made in a central location and sent to the store. The problem with stores that sell trief sandwiches is that everything Is warmed in same oven.
DD doesn’t sell ice cream. Some are under same roof as Basken RobertsSeptember 2, 2019 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1782076
Joseph, surely they rinse the scoop between flavors.September 2, 2019 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1782333
Milhouse, is the assumption of “surely” sufficient?
(And do they even have a separate scoop for each of their 25 flavors?)September 2, 2019 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1782426
There isn’t a central baking location. DD makes almost nothing on their own. They contract with manufactures who eiteieither make mixes for them or actually bake products which are then “baked off” at the store locations.
As a 30 year mashgiach veteran I find it interesting how so manmany make assumptions with any real knowledge of the susituation. I would like to see the statement from Rav Belsky zzt”l in writing. With bakery enhancers, emulsifiers, etc. I would be very careful about eating an uncertified bagelSeptember 2, 2019 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1782608
“How do i find out? I feel like the workers in that branch don’t actually know ”
someone must now. speak to the managerSeptember 2, 2019 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1782656
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Last I checked, all baked goods are made in a central location and sent to the store.
When was the last time you checked, and with whom did you check?September 2, 2019 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1783078
shmaggegi, why don’t you go to a certified DD, stock up on your muffins, and freeze them?September 2, 2019 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1783050
assume for a moment you are not in a deserted place and you have choices, then even if a product is normally supplied and kosher, an owner who did not get delivery can substitute other product legally. is that a concern halakhically? ask a competent posek!September 2, 2019 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1782879
“Last I checked, all baked goods are made in a central location and sent to the store.”
All dunkin donuts?
and are all of thsoe central loactions kosher?
Seems doubtful at bestSeptember 2, 2019 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1782913
I checked with josephSeptember 2, 2019 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1783135
@yehudayona i can, but that’s not the point of this thread. i was hoping to get insight on the real reasons a person can or can’t go into any random dunkin and get a muffinSeptember 2, 2019 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1783168
I’m a bit skeptical that its “OK” to eat muffins/bagels that were either baked or reheated in an oven that might have been used to cook or reheat treifus, even if not at the same moment or an employee of the DD might have used that oven to heat up his/her ham and cheese sandwich for lunch.September 3, 2019 11:43 am at 11:43 am #1783280
“I’m a bit skeptical that its “OK” to eat muffins/bagels that were either baked or reheated in an oven that might have been used to cook or reheat treifus”
And besides that issue, at the independent bagel stores, many of them make bacon bagels. Now, if those are cooked in the same pot as the regular bagels….September 3, 2019 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1783312
don’t take this the wrong way, but being “skeptical” isn’t really helping me here, as i completely understand why someone would feel skeptical about it. be that as it may, there are even some poseks (mostly sfardi ones, i believe) that say one can eat food made with gelatin, since its no longer actual food (or, no longer the pig), since it has been broken down so much. similarly, in an oven, food that was previously heated inside of it — anything that is left of it, is no longer food. this can therefore be understood in the same mannerSeptember 3, 2019 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1783397
How do you know which DD bakes things on premises and those that receive finished products from a main commissary (like the one in Elizabeth that is under hashgachah)?September 3, 2019 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1783414
I hear that you can’t pasken on “skeptical” but you also can’t make statements like that about the oven being fine after having treif food heated in it. You would need to know if anything dripped anywhere, if any bits of it are still in the oven etc. It’s loads of fun to try to present people who keep halacha as neurotic and overdoing it, but “an oven that had treif things warmed in it” is not the same as the status of an oven in a treif store that you don’t know is clean, filthy, has food stuck to it from the bakers lunch yesterday etc. Or that the muffins are in there while other stuff is as well.September 3, 2019 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1783664
Yes, Joseph, if “surely” is enough to permit imported lemon juice, when we have no information at all about what sort of keilim were used to cut and squeeze the lemons, or what was kept in the barrels before the lemon juice, etc., then kal vachomer that it’s enough here.
We rely on “surely” throughout halacha — we call it “chazaka”.
Of course if they did have separate scoops then the whole problem wouldn’t exist in the first place. So I assume they don’t, and I suggest that surely they rinse the scoop between flavors, so it should be OK.September 4, 2019 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1783746
Milhouse- agreed that surely is used in Halacha but not without research. You can’t say surely they rinse it just because you think they should. If you visit a store you will find a trough of water with an absorbent sponge. The server dips the scoop into the trough and dabs it on the sponge a few times. Surely that’s not what you meant by rinsing.September 4, 2019 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1783787
If it’s good enough for customers who don;t want any chocolate in their vanilla, why shouldn’t it be good enough for us?September 4, 2019 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1783856
@milhouse that’s actually a pretty interesting point. I feel that it should be good enough for usSeptember 4, 2019 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1783980
“If it’s good enough for customers who don;t want any chocolate in their vanilla, why shouldn’t it be good enough for us?”
If a tiny amount of strawberry flavor remains in a customers request for vanilla flavor ice cream that the average customer won’t mind or notice, that’s sufficiently indicates that if a tiny amount of non-kosher ice cream remains in a Jewish customers request for a kosher flavor that it is okay to eat?September 4, 2019 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1784007
“@milhouse that’s actually a pretty interesting point. I feel that it should be good enough for us”
so what?September 4, 2019 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1784006
Milhouse – you can’t possibly use customers preference for chocolate without strawberry in it as a gauge for your kashrus. And if you do, you have no business presenting it as an option here. Kashrus regulations aren’t about trends in customers likes and dislikes.September 4, 2019 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1784028
Maybe good enough for those who don’t like a flavor would it be good enough for someone with a lethal allergy?
(The wisdom of the chachamim , I used to think that it made no sense to say that a flavor would come out of a clean dish or pot and had trouble with the logic of having separate dishes in situations when the pot was clean. But then I learns about allergies and how a person who has a severe allleegy can’t eat from something that was cooked in a pot that was used with that allergen. )September 4, 2019 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1784066
@justme22 im not sure comparing it with a lethal allergy makes sense here though. There are many situations dealt with in the gemara (or could be elsewhere, but anyways), that talk about an occurrence where someone accidentally had treif, or something along those lines. I recall it not being an issue if the person did not ENJOY it. As far as I understand, it’s assur to ENJOY eating something that is non kosher. Therefore, since someone with allergies does not actually taste whatever substance might have been on that utensil, I don’t see the relevance here. For someone who just does not like the flavor, if they don’t taste it, then there is no issue. I feel that the same thing could be applied for our kashrut situation here, where if we don’t taste it, we therefore don’t enjoy it, and it should therefore not be an issue.
BTW this is just me explaining my logic and thought process, and wanting to discuss it, I am not saying any of this implying that I am right and everyone else is wrong and this is how it is. Clearly it’s not black and white. 🙂September 4, 2019 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #1784078
Joseph, yes. If it doesn’t affect the taste then it’s not a problem. if someone ordering vanilla got some chocolate in it, they’d complain. So the rinsing must be good enough to prevent that. Tell me why that should not be good enough for kashrus purposes.September 4, 2019 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1784109
Where is the source that you are allowed to eat something that you know in advance may have visible treif or basar bcholov in it ?September 4, 2019 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #1784112
that’s the thing – we don’t know, and we assume it doesn’t, since if you ask them for an item, they give you that item, without mixing it with another item. as we said, if they did that, they would lose customers, as customers would be upset that they mixed up their foods with other foods they may not like.
this is why we can assume that there will not be any “visible trief or basar bcholov” in it, simply for obvious reasons. and if thats the case, then based on what we said above, we can consume a muffin (for example), since we use common sense, and assume that it is not mixed with anything else. obviously people can be machmir, which is seemingly the approach you are taking, which is completely understandableSeptember 5, 2019 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1784114
“If it doesn’t affect the taste then it’s not a problem. if someone ordering vanilla got some chocolate in it, they’d complain. So the rinsing must be good enough to prevent that. Tell me why that should not be good enough for kashrus purposes.”
And I’m sure every now and then a Baskin Robbins customer does complain that it is a bit off flavor due to an inadvertent mix. And gets a new cone (free) to replace it.
You’re okay with a Jew every now and then getting a little treif flavor?September 5, 2019 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1784196
Funny….as someone who is clearly not the most machmir on certain issues of kashrus, I would be uncomfortable eating anything that was heated in an oven where there was even a small likelihood of dual useage for treifus. I would worry about that more than whether the creamer for the coffee was cholov yisroel or cholov stam. I’m sure that is a contrarian view and not necessarily correct k’halacha as some have posited above but some concerns are just habitual.September 5, 2019 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1784168
“Where is the source that you are allowed to eat something that you know in advance may have visible treif or basar bcholov in it ?”
This conversation is getting comfusing.
If it is visible, remove it.
If it is not visible the source is Rema YD 98:1September 5, 2019 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1784211
“You’re okay with a Jew every now and then getting a little treif flavor?”
As previously discussed, there’s straight up Halacha that says burnt substances of any food are no longer considered food. When we’re talking about an oven, that’s the “flavor” you would be getting. And as mentioned previously, even many sfardi poskim say that even gelatin in foods isn’t an issue for this exact reason: it’s simply no longer food, as it’s been broken down so much.
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