September 5, 2019 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1784240
Joseph, surely they rinse the scoop between flavors.
I was just having this discussion with a friend, who said he has gotten vanilla in his chocolate ice cream.September 5, 2019 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1784242
similarly, in an oven, food that was previously heated inside of it — anything that is left of it, is no longer food. this can therefore be understood in the same manner
That’s simply not true. Normal use of an oven doesn’t automatically kasher it.
The comparison to gelatin is also totally inapt.September 5, 2019 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1784248
As previously discussed, there’s straight up Halacha that says burnt substances of any food are no longer considered food. When we’re talking about an oven, that’s the “flavor” you would be getting.
False. You get regular, assur, ta’am.
No shaychus to the gelatin issue.September 5, 2019 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1784256
” there’s straight up Halacha that says burnt substances of any food are no longer considered food”
this is what I consider dangerous talk. Yes, maybe a ‘straight up Halacha’ says that, but we have no reason to believe an oven that is warming things gets hot enough to burn substances to that point. And what if they are in together? And what about the 10 times you use the oven while it is not yet burnt (if it burns at all?) When you throw out a known halacha as an aside in a conversation, even though it does not actually apply here, people get sucked in. And you can be misleading a lot of people. It is not being a machmir, it is about not making assumptions about anything that isn’t assumable and calling it a chazaka.September 5, 2019 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1784253
I’m not good with the actual sources, but it would be good to see them here, if anyone can show them. All i know is i learned these things many times from knowledgeable people. @daasyochid anything on your end? I’m fairly confident in this comparison with the gelatin.. and this entire idea about these substances not being considered food anymoreSeptember 5, 2019 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1784275
You may have learned them from knowledgeable people but you are applying them Incorrectly and making erroneous assumptions. That is a very dangerous game to play. And to then assume you’re correct and just call everybody else strict is wrongSeptember 5, 2019 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1784286
I’m not assuming I’m correct, I’m simply trying to generate discussion based on ideas I’ve learned over time.
I think the nature of these forums really don’t translate things so well to a lot of readers. I keep trying to say that i don’t know many of these answers due to how complicated it is, which is why I’m asking for the discussion.
Anyways, i don’t think we will get any further with this concept unless we get some trustworthy source regarding this oven stuffSeptember 5, 2019 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1784327
You’re okay with a Jew every now and then getting a little treif flavor?
Why wouldn’t I be OK with it? Why are you not OK with it? If a serving of a certain vegetable has less than a 10% chance of having an insect in it, we eat it without checking, even though that means every now and then we will eat an insect.September 5, 2019 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1784385
Thanks much for clarifying.September 5, 2019 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1784418
Milhouse: NYC tap water has less than a 10% likelihood of having an insect in a drink. Why then do the hechsherim still insist it be filtered?September 6, 2019 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1784423
It has more than a 10% chance, depending on location.September 6, 2019 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1784425
Back to bagels…most bagels in the Bronx are kosher from the same OU certified facility in the South Bronx — Just Bagels. If like me you keep crazy hours you see their trucks, which feature the OU, making deliveries late at night and early in the morning.September 6, 2019 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1784426
I’m not good with the actual sources, but it would be good to see them here, if anyone can show them.
See Pri Megadim (Eshel Avraham) in O.C. 451:30, towards the end, where it’s clear that ordinary use of an oven doesn’t burn out the issur.
However, the bigger problem here anyhow is the potential for the (supposedly – we haven’t established this) kosher muffin being in the oven simultaneously with non kosher food. Even if they didn’t touch, see Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 108 (R’ma) that l’chatchilah you shouldn’t buy it.
Plus, here, we have no way of knowing if it did or didn’t touch any non kosher food (or non kosher tray or rack).September 6, 2019 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1784430
There’s also a possibility of it being heated at the same time as a non kosher liquid (e.g. soup) which would even be assur b’dieved.September 6, 2019 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1784432
Or the issur being a davar charif.September 6, 2019 8:47 am at 8:47 am #1784439
“However, the bigger problem here anyhow is the potential for the (supposedly – we haven’t established this) kosher muffin being in the oven simultaneously with non kosher food. ”
Ok, well, what about if they just give it to you without any oven use.. I’m pretty sure they just get it off the truck and stick it straight onto those shelves.September 6, 2019 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1784436
Joseph, the OU, which is the major hechsher in the USA, does not require NYC water to be filtered.September 6, 2019 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1784447
Is “pretty sure” good enough? Do we really know that they’re actually baked with a reliable hashgacha? Even if some DD locations get muffins from a facility which has a good hashgacha, do we know all do? Even if we can somehow ascertain that a specific DD gets their fully baked muffins from a kosher facility, how do we know that they won’t use a different source if they run out?September 6, 2019 11:43 am at 11:43 am #1784465
“Ok, well, what about if they just give it to you without any oven use.. I’m pretty sure they just get it off the truck and stick it straight onto those shelves.”
Why are you still ” pretty sure”? Go to the dunkin donuts look and ask around. This isnt complicated stuff. there is no need to make assumptions. none of us know what store you are referring to, where they get their stuff from etc. Go find out it will take an hour tops .
then reports what you find to a knowledgeable person and you’ll get your answer.
There is no need to make random assumptions neither about the how the store operates nor the halachaSeptember 6, 2019 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1784477
we don’t know any of that, we would only know if we “certify” a specific store ourselves, as someone mentioned earlier, by asking them all of these questions. and regarding trusting the answers we receive, well i guess theres no guarantee thereSeptember 6, 2019 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1784491
regarding trusting the answers we receive, well i guess theres no guarantee there
It’s not a matter of guarantees, it’s a question of halachic ne’emanus, which there generally isn’t.September 6, 2019 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #1784497
“we don’t know any of that, we would only know if we “certify” a specific store ourselves,”
so do it. dont be lazy. How do you think any store is certified. do you think people ask online foums “anybody know how entemans? operates? I’m pretty sure they don’t use lard anybody hear anything different” don’t ask US what goes on in a store that we can’t possibly know the metzius of (we dont even know where you live !) go to the store and ask
you probably could’ve been enjoying your delicious muffins by now if you really wanted toSeptember 18, 2019 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1787866
I’d rather have a donut
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