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To yittish
Thank you for your scholarly response to rescue’s misguided ode to humanism. You’re a welcome addition to the thread.
To R.D.
I’m glad that we’re on the same side.
To pekak
Since you introduced Da Mah Shetashiv, I’d like to elaborate. Rabbi Miller said that the Apikorus, which the aphorism addresses, is not the person who speaks heresy, in our case rescue, but the one who hears what was said. I think he meant that we must be able to respond to those who spout ideas which are antithetical to the Torah lest such ideas gain a foothold in our psyches. Rescue has repeatedly said that G-d gave us laws that He knew we couldn’t keep and so He expects us to use our “free-will” and reject them. In fact, this is rescue’s “big lie.” Rabbi Dessler, in his classic Mussar sefer Michtav Mieliyahu expounds a principle which he called “Bechirah point.” He explained that there are Mitzvohs that we find challenging and those which aren’t. Let’s start with the second group. No Jew has any desire to wear Shaatnez. No observant Jew gets up in the morning and struggles to put on his Tallis and Tefilin. There are many Mitzvohs that we perform in a rote manner. Yes, it’s better if we infuse them with enthusiasm, but even if done perfunctorily one is Yotzi. So, we see that rescue’s thesis to wit the Torah demands that we obey rules which run counter to our nature is simply a canard. But then we have those Mitzvohs which touch on our Bechirah point, meaning that we do have to overcome certain barriers or hurdles to perform them. What must be understood is that such Mitzvohs differ from person to person. There are those who have difficulty giving charity despite being well off, others who are ready to “drop their gloves” at the slightest provocation. As Rabbi Dessler explained, each person must assess himself to discern which Mitzvohs go against “his” particular grain, and then he must devise strategies, generally in concert with his Rabbonim, to deal with these Yetzer horas. We won’t always succeed, but Hashem desires that we put in effort. To that point, the Vilna Gaon said that if someone restrains himself, even one time, from speaking Loshon Hora, he merits worlds of treasures. Hashem knows who we are, all He wants is that we make sincere efforts to improve ourselves.
@pekak
as paraphrased by the website Sefaria.org ‘Avot DeRabbi Natan 17 (Talmud)’ “R. Eliezer said. Be eager to study the Torah, and know how to answer an unbeliever. Let not one word of Torah be forgotten by you. Know before whom you toil, and with whom you have entered into a compact.”
@yittish
I have one word for you, ‘proselytizer’. In Torah we are commanded not to speak of other religions. You mention other religions and that shows you are not Torah, you are a proselytizer. You are more interested in converting Jews/Yidden to your non-Torah belief than you are to letting Yiddishe Neshami’s know about the truth of Torah teaching. You exemplify a person with extensive knowledge in a public college-like setting. But, you do not convince Jews/Yidden of the veracity of your beliefs even though you are very persuasive, you are not accurately speaking Torah. You use Torah words indiscriminately to explain your viewpoint. For instance you speak of the ‘Latin Vulgate’ as a reference to understanding (Ish Vershtei) the word ‘obey’. That is from a non-Torah religion and bespeaks a horrible effort to convert us Torah Yidden. Obeying H”M requires full compliance with H-s Commandments. We are to blindly obey and not dispute H”M’s Torah Law. We are not to determine a ‘relationship’, as you put it, with G-D as if He is a best friend; that is reserved for proselytizing religions. G-D Commands us to Obey so we do. We don’t question whether or not we want to or not. Moshe Rabbeinu for instance questioned H”M extensively about the Jews/Yidden and that they were not obeying H-s Commandments and would G-D please consider amending H-s raging anger at such a situation. G-D hears Moshe Rabbeinu, but even though He wants to unleash enormous anger on the Jews/Yiddishe He holds back and allows Moshe Rabbeinu the consideration that Moshe’s desires must be given a place to be allowed. So G-D does not let H-s raging anger commence, but H”M does say that even though He will hold back H-s rage at that point in time, He will let it out at a future time in other ways. And He does and Torah history points this out in so many ways. Sometimes G-D will not act on H-s rage and He does not always comply with man’s ways and man’s desires. He does, however, want us to come to H-m and beg forgiveness for our sins/aveirahs and repent of our evil/rasha ways. G-D’s ways are not man’s ways. He is inscrutable. Unable to be figured out at all ever. You, @yittish, try to figure H-m out. He is not meant to be figured out. He is meant to be obeyed, contrary to your convoluted ‘obedience’ teachings, named in your post, above. I see that you twice repeated your ‘post’ above. That was unnecessary. One post per participant, @yittish. Save space for others to respond, please.To yittish and all other participants of this Torah Coffee House/Coffee Room, I was reviewing in Parshas Devarim Moshe Rabbeinu’s Aseres Ha Dibros (by Sefaria. org website)
“לֹ֣א־יִהְיֶ֥͏ֽה־לְךָ֛֩ אֱלֹהִ֥֨ים אֲחֵרִ֖֜ים עַל־פָּנָֽ͏ַ֗י׃
You shall have no other gods beside Me.”We are commanded by G-D not to even recognize the gods of others before H-s Holy Presence (Shechinah). There are those on this Coffee House/Coffee Room Yeshiva World News website who spew information related to other gods. I totally reject those of you who teach this way. It is now Pesach. A time to reflect on the Maror and the Matzoh as qwerty613 so elegantly stated in his post above. Maror is bitter. We have been embittered by the slavery we Jews/Yidden all experienced in Mimitzrayim (we are commanded in the Haggadah to take on the time our ancestors spent in Mimitzryim as if we spent the time there ourselves). For over 400 years we suffered at the hands of the egyptians. We learned their idol worship ways unwillingly and some willingly. We were literally, all of us Jews/Yidden crying out to H”M/G-D of All to release us from our bitter bonds of slavery. We, after aseres plagues, were finally released from our bonds to pharaoh. The Al-mt-y told us, once we were released from our bonds to march in haste out of egypt which we did gladly. The bread our women were baking had no time to rise in time to leave in the haste of egyptian former slavery. It was carried this way and that way, on heads, on shoulders, in hand baskets, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. It was baked in pans flat and somewhat hardened cracker like. It is called, MATZOS, the bread of our affliction. These symbols of the seder plate are in fact reminders for all our eternal generations after that, that we were afflicted with hard bitter labor. Cried many tears of sorrow and heartache at our demise in pharaoh’s egypt, building Pisom and Raamses for pharaoh. We were in pain. Mental pain, physical pain, emotional pain, and neshamic pain (as well as ruach pain). We are never to forget these events!!! We are commanded by G-D to remember them each year. In pharaoh’s egypt they were very big idol worshippers. We are commanded by G-D not to look at, consider, or believe in the idol worship of the nations/goyim around us. I am constantly repeating, ‘Chos V’Sholom’, ‘Keina Hora’, and ‘Chilul H”M’ regarding the goyim that surround me in my neighborhood. I want G-D to know loud and clear that I reject the idol worship of the goyim in my neighborhood. Is it easy? No.It is not. It is the bread of affliction, MATZOS, for me. qwerty613, you are right to state that it is a bitter suffering that we must endure at the hands of idol worshippers and we are afflicted tremendously by it. I do not give up. I face this as best as I can. I pray for those who face similar ‘egyptian pharaoh’ trials in their lives that they devote their lives to H”M and do not swerve from the right nor to the left when following in H-s Ways. Thus, I do not have the gods of others before me in the presence of the Shechinah. H”M is all that I know, and all that I believe in. Bleipt Gezundt one and all. A refuel shleimah to those who need healing and a Chag Kasher V’Sameach once again to the Yidden who participate in this Yeshiva World News Coffee Site.
Hold it! Please don’t accuse people of proselytizing because you failed to understand a style of communication. Would you not mention the word “avoda Zara” because that would mean you recognize other idols? Or would you call them out for what they are?
My point was there is an etymology to words. Im trying to explain that the English word “obey” or the Yiddish word “fulgen” the German “hurchen” has a long history that has traveled through time. As I said we were forced to translate the Torah into Greek, lashon Hakodesh when translated may fail to convey very important nuances of the word. At the risk of mentioning Christianity again, their translation of the Old Testament isn’t our accurate truth, you know that right?! We are told to “keep” Hashems commandments, yes that means to do the Mitzvos and not to transgress, do aveiros. In “keeping” Hashems commandments we grow closer to Him. Is this not a relationship? I am not trying to borrow from foreign cultures and religions, Im trying to go back to the real Source. Im not stating anything as fact. I’m trying to I understand with the limited information I find available. Thank you for the compliment about my scholarly education. My highest degree is a high school diploma. I am self taught. But more than anything I wish to understand Torah. So thank you for being a wise contributor, and maybe tone down the derision? Chag Sameach!Rescue. As explained before, you’re creating narratives that fit your own personal agenda. Which is fine, but dont claim it’s Torah.
Regarding “discussing other religions”, there is an explicit pasuk: Exodus 23:13
וְשֵׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים לֹא תַזְכִּירוּ, לֹא יִשָּׁמַע עַל-פִּיךָ.
”And make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of your mouth.”And the many other psukim about destroying monuments of other gods/religions etc…
Also, “Guard yourself, lest your heart become seduced” השמרו לכם פן יפתה לבבכם
etc.. even saying to kill those who try to seduce us to other gods. Duetoronomy 13. Parshas Re’ehNow, you’ll say “different gods is the not the same as different religions”. Yes, it is!
Because the whole concept of a “different religion” is a new invention – didn’t exist 2000 years ago.
A religion, naturally, is associated with a national culture. Gods are as well. The concept of a different “religion” for the same god – and one that transcends national boundaries – is a new invention and has ZERO historical value. It is the same as inventing a new gender etc… 100% irrelevant.Regarding adding/ taking away from the Torah (it is specifically the Commands of the Torah אֵ֣ת כָּל־הַדָּבָ֗ר אֲשֶׁ֤ר אָנֹכִי֙ מְצַוֶּ֣ה אֶתְכֶ֔ם אֹתֹ֥ו תִשְׁמְר֖וּ לַעֲשֹׂ֑ות לֹא־תֹסֵ֣ף עָלָ֔יו וְלֹ֥א תִגְרַ֖ע מִמֶּֽנּוּ׃)
You seem to doing just that over and over again throughout this coffe room… taking away laws you dont like… adding on your own stuff…No offense, but please have some humility and study some Torah before posting. That goes for all of us…
ThanksTo rescue
You asked R D Teitelbaum to cite a verse which teaches that one can’t talk about other religions. Dev 17:11 states that we must follow the dictates of our Rabbis. With this verse Hashem empowered the Rabbis to make laws for the people which must be followed. To that point, Rabbi Akiva said that one who studies Sefarim Chitzonim is an Apikorus. There are other such teachings which prohibit studying other religions. So yes, there is a valid source. Now why don’t you provide a source for your belief that G-d doesn’t expect us to keep His laws?
qwerty> Rabbi Akiva said that one who studies Sefarim Chitzonim is an Apikorus.
My source: R Eliezer, who only taught what he learnt from his teachers – lamented that R Akiva was the only one who asked him questions about magical cucumbers. And in order to explain to R Akiva difference between real avoda zora who are hayav misa v. those who just pretend to do it – he demonstrated both ways. As part of the discussion, the rav mentioned that he paskens differently for different students who want to learn about other religions – some who are in danger of being attracted are not allowed, others, who might need to support their own beliefs while living among knowledgeable goyim, were recommended. I imagine there would be some people in between.
@Happy new year and @qwerty613 your comments are exactly what @rescue and @yittish needed to straighten them out. In the Tanackh (the Jewish Bible which by the way omits books and writings from non-Torah religions and includes only books and writings that H”M’s Rabbi’s have approved of), as I just said, in the Tanackh in Parshas Devarim regarding the second set of Ten Declarations/Ten Commandments it states; ‘Thou shalt not recognize the gods of others in My Presence.’ Let’s consider the word, ‘recognize’. What does that mean/imply? First of all to recognize a god is to stare at it and consider worshipping it. Secondly, to recognize a god is to talk about it and explain it’s meaning to another/others and thus worship it. Thirdly, to recognize a god is to write about it and explain it’s meaning to another which is by the way a form of idol worship because you are recognizing it and consider it worthy of consideration which is a form of idol worship. What is idol worship? Idol worship involves bowing down and/or prostrating yourself to a god (whether the god is stone, wood, metal, ice sculpture, snow sculpture, glass, or another mineral or chemical compound listed in the scientific table of elements.), staring at it, talking about it, writing about it or any other way of considering it. These I state, are all ways of idol worship and thus “RECOGNIZING” the gods of other nations/religions. We, then, as the Tanackh states in the Parshas Devarim/Deutoronomy are “RECOGNIZING” the gods of others. We are, and I repeat, “FORBIDDEN” as Torah Yidden/Jews to do this. It is a RASHA/Wicked Evil One who will “RECOGNIZE” the gods of others, not Yidden/Jews. It also states in the BrachaTefillah/Blessed Prayer named, “ALEYNU” that we pray that there will be a destruction of all the idols/gods in stone, wood, metal, glass, etcetera and that every knee will bend and everyone will pray to the invisible G-D/H”M Of All and not to a hardened or softened substance (that could include stuffed animals or stuffed toys or dolls) that is in H-s Creation/Bereshis Bara. Remember, when we do not obey this Law of the Ten Declarations/Ten Commandments we are then punished by G-D/H”M for disobeying H-m. And what is the punishment? G-D/H”M decides.
@yittish,
you state, “At the risk of mentioning “BLANK” again…” First of all I will refer you to @Happy new year’s comments in his above post reply #2533781, April 10, 2026 11:45 am at 11:45 am; “Regarding “discussing other religions”, there is an explicit pasuk: Exodus 23:13…”And make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of your mouth.”We Yiddishe in Torah Law, are Commanded not to mention or refer to the name of other gods. It is a Commandment. And you so glibly state that name in your above post. You are testing G-D, which is not a wise, nor a sound, way of writing your posts. G-D rejects being tested by someone willing to transgress H-s Torah Laws. There is indeed a punishment, decided by G-D/H”M H-mself if one transgresses one of H-s Commandments. “…make no mention of the name of other gods…” PERIOD. Please, you say you ,”want to understand Torah”, then act as such and obey Torah of H”M’s Laws. This one is just as important as all the other 613 Commanded Torah Laws that every Yid obeys, and must absolutely obey. Thank you for changing from your evil ways to ways of Torah, and please don’t mention that name or any other idol worship name on this or any other Yeshiva World News website.
Rescue:
Please read the whole comment. You’re not reading, so there’s no point in continuing.
Please study history, specifically how gods and religions work.THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DIFFERENT RELIGIONS WITH THE SAME GOD!!!
Basic historical knowledge of how gods work.
They are national symbols. The religion of the Mexican gods is that which the Mexicans historically followed. The same goes for ALL gods/nations.
There’s ONLY ONE religion per God. Historical fact. Having a different religion for the same god, different than the national religion of that god, is like identifying as spaghetti and expecting a spaghetti bathroom. Doesn’t wirk that way historically.
The “Abrahimic” religions are just jewish conspiracies to conquer the world and make the nations worship the Jewish God.
But that does NOT change the national religion of the God of IsraelDvarim 17 is giving the ultimate authority to the Sanhedrin for ALL Torah Law. Contrary to popular belief, the “Bible” has ZERO authority, and is a made up concept.
The ONLY authority is the Sanhedrin- which includes ALL jewish groups of the time. Prushim, Tzedokim etc…The Mishna is the closest record that exists today to that supreme Torah authority from before the destruction.
That’s why chazal have more authority than the “Bible”, which, as concept of authority, was invented AFTER the destruction.Contrary to popular belief. But true historical fact
To the group
When rescue showed up about two months ago, I immediately asked him for the name of his Rabbi(s) and he ignored my request. We now understand why. Rescue does not accept Dev. 17:11 which teaches that Hashem empowered the Rabbis to make laws. In fact, most of our religion was formulated by our Sages. Therefore, rescue rejects that we must keep two days of Rosh Hashanah even in Israel and of course the two days of Yom Tov in Chutz Laaretz. So, you might think that rescue is a later day Karaite who only keeps the Written Torah. Not so fast. Rescue has stated that G-d has no right to order us to keep His commandments. There is no point trying to deal with this idiotic Kofer. Checkmate.
Happy New year wrote “Islamic extremism comes from Judaism. Thats a fact.” Right, the Arabs and pagans were docile, peaceful people until the adopted Islam. Also, Judaism teaches that murder, brutality against women, etc. Is accepted, right? Wrong.
What i find SO FASCINATING, is how “Rescue” will invent his OWN interpretation of Torah, LITERALLY OUT OF THIN AIR, contrary to the EXPLICIT reading, and then say that anyone who reads it literally is dogmatic and has an extreme agenda
(Example: capital punishment for shabbos etc… and worshping other gods. Just makes up stupidity and says “calm down”.).But then, when understanding Torah according to thousands of years of jewish understanding, he’ll say “you’re adding on cuz it’s not written”. Written where? In the “Bible”? Thats not a Torah concept from the God of Israel. The concept of Holy Scripture (Kisvay Hakodesh) was invented by Prushim.
The Mishna, on the other hand, represents the best, closest record of the last Sanhedrin before the Churban, and therefore has much more authority in Torah, in the only religion/ covenant of the God of Israel.
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