Democrats and Far Left

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  • #1985059
    Health
    Participant

    Once upon a time, the Frum Jews were all for the Democrat party.
    Nowadays with the Extreme Liberalism – how could anybody support them?
    We now see Israel & the US supporting far left policies.
    For example, not just allowing Gay rights, but flying their flag.
    Criminals that riot are let go & cops are prosecuted for hitting/pushing a rioter with a baton.
    These New policies are Not supported by the majority of the respective populations!

    #1985077
    philosopher
    Participant

    I agree with you 1000%! You are totally right. I simply do not understand it either.

    #1985079
    ujm
    Participant

    The title is redundant. Democrats and far left are synonymous.

    #1985081
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    With this being the current situation and returning us back to thousands of years ago to the days of Noach and the flood destroying the world. How much time do we have left before the world is destroyed in a different way this time C”V if we don’t immediately wake up to serious teshuva and stop this from being the norm in these countries of ours and all over the world?

    #1985088
    philosopher
    Participant

    I don’t think we can stop the tidal waves of immorality but we can speak out against it like Noach did and be saved. To vote for those who support and advance these terribly immoral agendas is a terribly big sin. My question is where is everyone who is supposed to lead us? Only Rav Avigdor Miller zt”l spoke against voting for these evil sinners.

    #1985092
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Perhaps if we stopped supporting morally corrupt politicians like Trump , some Dems would be willing to consider voting for conservative candidates. When you put a lying, bullying, narcissistic at the top of your ticket, it makes it any easy choice.

    #1985099
    Participant
    Participant

    @gh
    you’re so amazingly creative, but don’t waste your talent on twisting a logical (albeit cliche to the point of stale), sequential conversation into a pretzel.

    #1985148
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yesterday I heard someone say it best

    America is turning into a lunatocracy (this was said in regards to the pc culture and reparations for African Americans, once you start with them you have to give to the native Americans because “America stole their land” and the Irish because they were slaves too and the list goes on

    And this was from someone who isn’t Jewish

    #1985279
    philosopher
    Participant

    Heimishe communities are voting for this Eric Adams!

    Here’s only a partial lists of his policies I have not written all the disgusting things he supports:

    Abortion: Pro-choice but ban after 3 months

    Supports legalization of gay marriage:
    Yes

    Should gay couples have the adoption right:
    Yes

    Should the government continue funding Planned Parenthood:
    Yes

    Should the government RAISE (again) the the minimum wage:
    Yes

    Should (racist) critical race theory be taught in classrooms?
    Yes

    Should taxes be increased for the rich to reduce interest rates for student loans:
    Yes

    Should the president of the US have the power to deploy military troops to stop protests?
    No

    SHOULD BUSINESSES BE ABLE TO DENY SERVICE TONA CUSTOMER IF THE REQUEST CONFLICTS WITH THE OWNER’S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS?
    NO
    so not only does he support more immorality he wants to force you to support immorality!

    Should the government pay tuition at 4 year colleges and universities?
    Yes

    Should gender identity be added to anti-discrimination laws?
    Yes

    Should children of illegal immigrants be granted legal citizenship?
    Yes

    Should people under 18 recieve “gender-transition” treatments?
    Yes

    Should drugs be decriminalized?
    Yes

    There’s way more liberal and immoral, behavior he supports but I cannot rewrite the entire list here.

    Hashem yarachem that we vote for such individuals. We are bringing misfortune upon ourselves and placing trust in immoral people instead of in Hashem.

    #1985276
    Participant
    Participant

    to be honest I think reparations make sense. that is, the amount of unpaid work blacks gave should be paid by those who owned them, or their estates.

    what do Irish get reparations for?

    #1985343
    Health
    Participant

    GH -“When you put a lying, bullying, narcissistic at the top of your ticket, it makes it any easy choice.”

    You’re right – the choice is easy.
    Whatever Trump is – he doesn’t support Crime, Gay marriage, Abortion on Demand and all the Sick Lib, Liberal Policies nowadays, like the DemonCrats!

    #1985342
    Health
    Participant

    Phil -“Heimishe communities are voting for this Eric Adams”

    It really doesn’t make a difference.
    Now if he was running for Governor – it would!

    #1985413
    philosopher
    Participant

    Health, why doesn’t it make a difference? I’m not talking about the outcome, he likely would become mayor regardless of the Jewish votes. But it’s a real chilly Hashem and a vote against Hashem to vote for someone like him. The fact is that whoever votes for him is putting someone in office who will make NYC more immoral than before the people before the flood.

    #1985421
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “to be honest I think reparations make sense. that is, the amount of unpaid work blacks gave should be paid by those who owned them, or their estates.“

    Participant,

    So you want to give land that we “stole” (hello, Manhattan) back to the Native Americans?

    The Irish, the guy said, were also slaves in America

    #1985423
    Participant
    Participant

    I was referring to black reparations. Manhattan was bought, I think, and you seem to also, judging by the quotation marks.

    #1985425
    philosopher
    Participant

    Talking about reparations, Jews and Europeans were also sold into slavery during the Middle Ages so we need reparations as well. And it was the black tribal leaders in Africa who sold their own people into slavery so they should be the ones paying reparations too. The funniest part is that blacks will be paying reparations for themselves and other blacks through taxes. And what about those of mixed race? Will they be getting reparations according to the amount of black ancestry they have?

    The blacks are getting reparations already. Billions of dollars is being poured into their communities and handed out to black individuals in the form of every program imaginable.

    #1985433
    Health
    Participant

    Phil -“But it’s a real chilly Hashem and a vote against Hashem to vote for someone like him”

    A lot of Gedolim held to vote for the Lessor of Two Evils.
    So the Frum politicians said to put Andrew as #1, and for #2 Adams.
    E/o else are Worse than Adams.

    #1985436
    Health
    Participant

    CA -“America is turning into a lunatocracy (this was said in regards to the pc culture and reparations for African Americans,”

    It’s become worse than that!
    PC is one thing, Now the Good Ole US of A is becoming WOKE!
    They’re many differences – I’ll give one:
    The Criminals are the Heros, but the Cops are the Bad Guys!
    They prosecuted a Cop in Minneapolis for doing his Job.
    He didn’t get a Fair Trial and his lawyer is demanding a New Trial.
    Personally, I knew he wouldn’t get one.

    2nd, all the Rioters in Portland are Not being Charged, even though a lot of them Committed Violent Federal Crimes.
    Compare that to the Trespassers in the Capitol on Jan. 6.
    But they are prosecuting a Cop there because he pushed a Rioter with his Baton!

    So PC was bad enough, but Equity is Much Worse!

    #1985440
    Participant
    Participant

    @Phil
    you make good points. if they’re right, I’m with u. but the concept of reparations makes sense (if not in this application); not like what I’ve heard from others.

    btw even if blacks did sell other blacks, it’s not a reason to excuse slaveowners from paying the slaves. as to mixed races, etc. the only blacks who (would) deserve reparations are slaves’ descendents.

    #1985452
    philosopher
    Participant

    Participant, reparations for descendents of slaves for what? No one alive today was a slave so there’s no on to pay reparations to. Do you think Holocaust survivor descendents can ask for repeeations from Germany? No, we cant. Billions of people are descendents of slaves, of misplaced people, of abused and oppressed people. They should stop making blacks into victims because they are not.

    #1985492
    Participant
    Participant

    it’s called inheritance, Phil. if someone owes money to someone and he dies, they pay it to the heirs.

    #1985518
    philosopher
    Participant

    Participant, in a court of law you are required to show proof that someone owes you money and if a person is a descendent of someone who owes you money then you required to show proof that he inherited the assets of the person who owed you the money. In the Banana Republic of the USA proof will soon not a requirement to get money you claim is yours…if you’re black that is. Furthermore, it is not the US government that owned the slaves so why should the government have to pay inheritance? Furthermore, many blacks are themselves descendents of slaves owners, like Michael Obama for example so should they be required to pay themselves? And again people of mixed race, are they required to partially pay themselves? Furthermore, a vast percentage of blacks in the USA today are not descendents of slaves, they arrived as free people, as immigrants, or descendents of immigrants, from Africa, Haitia and all over the world. Furthermore, most American citizens today are not descendents of slaves owners so why should they be made to pay the “inheritance” for the descendants of slaves?

    And furthermore, can you imagine if descendents of victims of the Holocaust go back to where there ancestors came from and demand those who took the ancestors belongings, assets and properties, return all of it to them? And no proof of ownership is needed despite that they were indeed stolen from the Holocaust victims? Why won’t that happen? And not only descendents from victims of the Holocaust, but can people of all races claim inheritance from the people who stole assets or enslaved their ancestors? Why are blacks the only people entitled to such “inheritance”?

    #1985650
    Participant
    Participant

    wow wow wow kind of hard to defend myself from this litany of challenges to what I never said nor implied.

    #1985715
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Participant,

    You said you believe in reparations, philosopher is blasting that by saying reparations can’t be paid because you don’t know who’s ancestor was a slave and who was a landowner etc

    #1985728
    philosopher
    Participant

    Participant, sorry, sorry, sorry! My post come across as blasting. That was totally not my intention. I thought I was simply making statements why reparations don’t apply to blacks in the USA. If you feel attacked, sorry again! I meant simply putting down the facts and I guess it came accross the wrong way. I am upset at the government out of control spending and wokenss of the government of United States and certainly not at you.

    #1985730
    Participant
    Participant

    @coffee
    that was one of his many points and it’s dumb on several counts, not least because I’m sure there are many who could prove it.

    #1985747
    philosopher
    Participant

    Participant, no, it is almost impossible to prove that the descendants of slaves masters assets are from their slave owning ancestors and in most case impossible to prove that people today are descendents of slaves. If there are the few individuals who can prove it both ways, it is only a few individuals and no more who could definitely prove it and would involve expensive investigations as well as courtcases which the average descendant of the slave would not be interested in persuing. And Proof of that that is that blacks will not have to show proof that they are descendents of slaves nor will they have to sue descendents of slaves owners, the reparations will be coming from taxes payed by US citizens (whites and blacks) the vast majority of whom had nothing to do with slavery.

    Now I feel silly for apologizing because firstly I don’t think I came accross as bashing you and secondly now you say that people could prove it which contradicts what you said earlier that you never said not implied points that I bought up.

    #1985791
    1
    Participant

    I vote Republican usually but are you really voting for a guy who walks around in a red beret?

    #1985800
    Participant
    Participant

    uh, what?
    where’s the contradiction?

    #1985772
    Health
    Participant

    Participant -“to be honest I think reparations make sense. that is, the amount of unpaid work blacks gave should be paid by those who owned them, or their estates”

    No, it doesn’t.
    Except in the Crazy Woke World.
    Since almost the beginning of this world – there were Slaves.
    So generations have changed, but once you were a Slave doesn’t entitle to you to get money for it.

    The Germans had No right to do anything to Jews!
    They weren’t their property & they had no rights over them.
    They couldn’t confiscate their property or put them in Work camps.
    For sure no one has the right to commit Genocide or Experiment on any Human w/o permission!

    #1985850
    philosopher
    Participant

    Health, if you are bringing up the Holocaust because of what I wrote then I want to clarify that I am not excusing at all what the Nazis י”ש did, am I excusing any nor any nation or race who murderers or oppressed people. I spoke about the victims perspective that our mentality as descendants of Holocaust survivors is not mired forever in victimhood (and that’s why the Jews were so successful after the Holocaust while blacks are least successful being they are wallowing in victimhood) and we are not en-masse descending on Europe demanding what is coming to us as descendants of Holocaust victims. That was my point in bringing up the Holocaust.

    #1985849
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “No, it doesn’t.
    Except in the Crazy Woke World.
    Since almost the beginning of this world – there were Slaves.
    So generations have changed, but once you were a Slave doesn’t entitle to you to get money for it.“

    Uh…. We got “reparations” technically from מצרים look at the midrash

    #1985861

    coffee > got “reparations” technically from מצרים look ​at the midrash

    I was thinking about it too – notice that Jews used the reparation idea only in defense against Mitzrim claiming money from us! We remember Mitzraim but not because we are looking for their payoff. Otherwise, every Seder would include a list of things Mitzrim owe to us. We do not. The trap of former slaves may be partially explained by selection: everyone except them (and natives) volunteered to come to America, whether legally or illegally, under duress or lured by the riches, every American packed suitcases and got moving. So, everyone has a certain attitude passed on in their families and was somewhat unusual among their peers. Slaves did not have that and, in addition, all their families were destroyed.

    #1985869
    Participant
    Participant

    @Phil where did I contradict myself?

    #1985920
    philosopher
    Participant

    The Yidden in mitzrayim were redeemed slaves, not descendents of slaves. They got payed for THEIR WORK from THEIR MASTERS, not their descendents got payed from their ancestor’s masters descendents! That is stupidity beyond. Almost every race had people who were kidnapped and sold into slavery, blacks were not unique.

    #1986115
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Philosopher,

    The midrash says “multiplied by 210 years”

    #1986135
    philosopher
    Participant

    coffee addict, yes but the Yisroelim that left Egypt were still slaves themselves as well prior to leaving with their “payments”.

    #1986146
    Participant
    Participant

    @philosopher where did I contradict myself?

    #1986162
    Health
    Participant

    Phil -“The Yidden in mitzrayim were redeemed slaves, not descendents of slaves. They got payed for THEIR WORK from THEIR MASTERS, not their descendents got payed from their ancestor’s masters descendents! That is stupidity beyond”

    Agree!
    Secondly, Hashem decreed their payment from Egypt.
    Did American Blacks get a Bas Kol?!?

    Why are the Woke people here worried about something that happened years ago?
    I’ll tell you why – because they want another Freebie from White Americans.
    If they were worried about Justice, let them start Nowadays with Africa – there are Blacks there that are Still Enslaved by other Blacks!

    #1986196

    > t were still slaves themselves a

    the agada talks about Mitzrim suing Jews in front of Alexander the Great, that is some time later, in the context of other clever responses by Geviha ben Pesisa, see Sanhedrin 91a. Geviha ben Pesisa starts his responses thrice: if I lose, you can say they defeated a Hediyot… so, it underscores that his argument is not really very good, but a clever legal trick.

    #1986215
    philosopher
    Participant

    Health, good point. Why do woke people only care about about descendents of black slaves when slavery is still practiced to.a large extent on the African continent by black people themselves and by Arabs?

    #1986262
    Participant
    Participant

    @philosopher where is the contradiction?

    #1986263
    Participant
    Participant

    there are some good anti-reparations arguments presented here , most or all regarding the technicalities.

    here is a partial list of ridiculous arguments:
    it happened a long time ago
    the slaves are dead now
    in Asia there’s still slavery going on
    there are blacks who enslave blacks (although this may be a good argument to the particular reparation plan)

    #1986398
    Health
    Participant

    Participant -“there are some good anti-reparations arguments presented here , most or all regarding the technicalities”

    You forgot my main point – either by accident or on purpose.
    Here it is again:
    “Since almost the beginning of this world – there were Slaves.
    So generations have changed, but once you were a Slave doesn’t entitle to you to get money for it.”

    So in order to require payments from descendants – you must prove that they did something Wrong!
    In our Generation it’s called something Wrong, but not in their Generation.

    Forget about my Religious Beliefs, but in that Generation it was accepted!
    So this Immoral Generation is deciding that all Previous Generations were in the Wrong.
    It makes more sense that our Generation is the Most Wrong, not theirs.
    Considering the USA allows Abortion on Demand & Gay Marriage!

    #1986408

    most important argument for being careful with these issues: it does not matter whether someone deserves reparation in theory, what matters is the public policies that will be enacted in response. And most of those that are proposed are bad for the society and bad for the former slaves.

    Here is a simple test to see if someone is sincere: do they support choice in education – vouchers for private schools charter, online – anything that will help at least some poor people to escape bad schools . If they do not (and most unfortunately do not), it means they do not really care about helping these people, but about some other things.

    #1987084
    Participant
    Participant

    @health
    if you’d like to make an argument condoning slavery, this generation included, fine. but if the premise is that slavery is wrong, then it was always wrong. just because in generations past it was accepted to do wrong doesn’t change its wrongness.

    #1987168
    Health
    Participant

    Participant -“but if the premise is that slavery is wrong, then it was always wrong. just because in generations past it was accepted to do wrong doesn’t change its wrongness.”

    Of course you have No idea what you are talking about!
    I’m Yeshiva Educated and then College educated.
    You obviously think that the PC/Woke theories that the Left & Media push out must be the Correct way of thinking.

    From previous:
    “Forget about my Religious Beliefs, but in that Generation it was accepted!”
    Obviously my posts were Not arguing about my Religious Beliefs – because most Americans are Not from my Religion.
    But if you went to college – you probably went to the Most Lib ones.
    Did you take Ethics in college?
    If you did – you would have learnt that some (Probably Most) Scholars hold – Morals & Ethics can & do change all the time!
    So to make s/o pay for something that is considered Wrong in this Generation, but in the Generation that it occurred was Not wrong, is Simply an Outright Thievery!

    If you want to talk about whether having Slaves according to Religion – I’m willing to have that Conversation also.

    #1987178
    Participant
    Participant

    @health
    I never took any ethics course in college, chasdei hashem. but by any sane method of reason, morality doesn’t change. (of course circumstances and outside factors change, which can cause a difference in application of a moral, but never the core moral.)
    I hope “moral” means “morality”. if not you can correct the above sentence to what I meant to say.

    #1987184
    Health
    Participant

    Participant -“I never took any ethics course in college, chasdei hashem. but by any sane method of reason, morality doesn’t change.”

    It does, if you go to learn Ethics.
    The problem with you is applying your Torah learning to Today’s Society!
    If you want to talk Morality that’s going according to the Torah, that’s fine with me.
    So you’re right – Morality doesn’t Change!
    So according to the Torah, e/o can buy & sell Slaves!
    That is the Torah’s Morality!
    And definitely it would apply Nowadays!
    So Don’t Tell me where you learned to be so Krum!

    #1987240
    Participant
    Participant

    @health
    the only reasonable way of phrasing your argument is that slavery is okay. naturally the question of reparations doesn’t begin. and the notion of slavery not being okay, even in this generation, also doesn’t begin.

    I am not going to debate whether or not it’s okay. the only question here is if reparations is Wokism or not, a question predicated on slavery is wrong. there is no way to say slavery is wrong in this generation but never was. and if you think there is please explain it using rational reasoning –not excerpts of a college ethics class.

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