April 27, 2011 5:02 am at 5:02 am #596461
Looking for some emotional support for husbands who gave their wives a Get (in my case, without any delay or conditions, as soon as it was apparent that she would not stay in the marriage, despite my desperate efforts for many years to do everything to save the marriage), but find it next to impossible to get a civil divorce without a major court battle that will exhaust financial resources, for no logical reason other than the ex-wife’s desire to make ex-husbands’ lives a shear living agony. Does this resonate with anyone and can you help me with some advice? I have been advised to try to take her to a Din Torah to force the terms of child custody, child support, viistation to be worked out, but she is unlikley to agree to go to Beis Din? Do you know any other husbnads that find themselves to be the Agunah? Not always are the wives the Agunah. Without the civil divorce, I can’t get re-married.April 27, 2011 5:07 am at 5:07 am #762090
Which Beis Din did you get a get done by?
I do not know of any way outApril 27, 2011 5:08 am at 5:08 am #762091Dovid HaMelechMember
NY recently became the last state to enact no fault divorce. It (from what little I know — I may be mistaken) should be relatively simple to get a civil divorce by simply filing for one.
In any event, you can get a real remarriage with chuppa and kiddushin, civil marriage or not. Obviously you couldn’t file a marriage certificate for your new marriage, until you obtain a civil divorce. But that shouldn’t slow you in any way from getting remarried.
As an aside, since it is water under the bridge in your instance, one shouldn’t provide the get until a beis din sets all the terms of the divorce per halacha. If she wants to receive a get al pi halacha, she needs to follow child custody and asset seperation as halacha sets out and determined by beis din.
HatzolchaApril 27, 2011 5:31 am at 5:31 am #762092
Quite right – it was a big mistake for me to give the Get naively without Beis Din first working out all details for child support/custody etc. What did I know about divorce except that I tried everything to prevent it from happening? Naively, I gave the Get without delay, conditions, expecting that my Ehrlichkeit would be matched by her readiness to facilitate the civil divorce so that I could get on with my life. Now I have to spend a fortune in legal costs to attain some kind of legal arrangment for child support/custody to have a civil divorce by running through the courts. Batei Dinnim need to be aware of these issues and work out these details before writing a Get. As to whether I can remarry without a civil diorce, the Beis Din said I cannot remarry until I am given civil license to remarry, so now I am the real Agunah.April 27, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #762093
Did they give her a petur? did you get a ptur? if you got one you could remarry. if she did not gey one u have some leverageApril 27, 2011 8:12 am at 8:12 am #762094
a woman in my adas (korach) is doing just that. she got her get, not civil divorce. she was reasonable about visitation, bad woman. her x got remarried, she refuses to give civil divorce. she wants him to pay her $100,000. smart and good lady, accepted into adas korach!April 27, 2011 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #762095cantoresqMember
The original poster is in an all too typical, if not spoken about situation. It’s always the husband who is the aggressor in a divorce. Wives are equally capable of tremendous nastiness. This man needs many things. But a top priority needs to be a competent attorney who can help him navigate through the system. Yes it can be costly, and yes it’s also both time consuming and emotionally draining. But there really is no choice in the matter. Get yourself a good lawyer (which means someone you trust) and hatzlocha rabbah.April 27, 2011 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #762096☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
It’s always the husband who is the aggressor in a divorce.
You must mean that it’s NOT always the husband.April 27, 2011 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #762097
actually, the guy is in a catch-22, cuz if he doesn’t give the get right away unless everything is worked out, the wife claims that she is an aguna case and everyone is anti- the man, not caring about the details.
not to say that there are not other real aguna cases. there are.
but it’s not always the men to blame (nor is it always the women to blame), but either way it is a messy, messy situation.April 27, 2011 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #762098
SilentOne, how much money do you actually give for your children’s living expenses, clothes, tuition? And what are your current visitation arrangements?
“despite my desperate efforts for many years to do everything to save the marriage”. What did she say was the problem/s?April 27, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #762099
For obvious reasons, it is diffciult to post personal information (such as dollar amount of support) publically. The Petur stipulated that civil license must be obtained to remarry, so a civil divorce is needed. Plus, no woman in her right mind would want to date someone who is civilly connected to another woman (take for example, if he remarried without a civil divorce, the husband could never get the new wife on his health insurance plan, since there is no marriage license).
I was hoping that rather than giving out specifics on my situation, people could reflect on what other people (men or women) went through and how they got through it to restart their lives. It is so very difficult to be hanging in mid-air, not being able to get on with my life, especially when I was the one “tossed-out”. I was on a Chol Hamoeid trip with one of my children and it was very painful to realize that all other nearly parents had their spouses with them on their family trip whereas I was in no-one’s land. Is it possible to take on a more positive (thankful) attitude and look at the long-term picture? Undoubtedly I should count my blessings and be thankful that I was Zoche to have healthy children considering the health struggles many other parents have with ill children and those who are childless and can’t even take any children on a Chol HaMoeid trip; unfortunately I am such a Hailege Yid to adopt such a positive view.April 27, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #762100
Silent one, I dont have any specific advice for you, but I can definately relate to being in no mans land. I lived there for almost a year. Was NOT a fun place to be. I also know someone who is going through something very similar. I think having a friend you can vent to who has a sense of humor is a great tool. Laughter helps alot. Lots of Hatzlachah. Its heartening to hear there r erliche and heilege divorced men.. :))April 27, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #762101
I meant to say that “unfortunately I am NOT such a Hailege Yid to adopt such a positive view”.April 27, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #762102
I was so touched by your post. I can relate to your feelings even though I am a wife. I know this may sound weird, but venting is not what will help you. Turn your thought process around and try to focus on filling yourself up with as much love and emunah as possible. Being kind to your children and good to yourself will help bring you to great heights. Your ex-wife is also deeply hurting and is acting out her pain by denying you what you need. She may eventually be able to let go of her hurt. But her not being able to do so may be a blessing in disguise-perhaps saving you from marrying a woman on the rebound. Give yourself time to heal your pain. There are two places that are wonderful reads: Chabad on Divorce by Rabbi Bulka for practical advice and doing the work of Byron Katie for helping release the pain from your heart. Once you can begin to view your situation in a new way, you will see that the situation will look different from you. Try to concentrate on being one of the growing number of couples who can say they have a succeful divorce. This will utlimately benefit your children and your family!April 27, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #762103
ur trying- thats hailige!
I think a positive view is enjoying the animals and smiling at the funny things ur kid says.
Try not to dwell on what is missing.April 27, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #762104HaLeiViParticipant
It was also heartening to see that not all doors are jammed and not every tree drops a coconut on me!April 27, 2011 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #762105
Also a less expensive and generally time saving alternative is to use a mediator instead of a lawyer. My close friend got divorced a year ago and used a mediator. Their assets were divided fairly and she received fair child support. The mediator’s agreement was accepted by the judge and the court granted the divorce. My friend estimated that she and her ex-husband saved thousands of dollars from their joint assets by paying an effective mediator instead of the outrageous divorce lawyer fees. My attorney cousin is in a practice and told me that it is in the law firm’s best interest to drag out a divorce for more billable hours even though it is not in the best interest of the client. His firm charges for time spent in speaking on behalf of his client to the other attorney-secretarial paperwork, filing, “expenses”, etc…Another friend spent over $300,000 on his divorce over the course of two and a half bitter years and lost his half of his home to pay for it. Do your research well and may Hashem send you the right shaliach!April 27, 2011 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #762106
emunah613: Thank you very much for the Chizuk and the kind words. I appreciate the very sincere words of advice very much. Please kindly tell me how to go about “try to focus on filling yourself up with as much love and emunah as possible” – do you have a Hashkofah Sefer/Shiur audio that you can recommend? I know internally that it is so important to see the good in all situations; otherwise even in a apparently stable marriage, a person can turn themselves into a miserable creature by seeing only the half-empty parts. But, I have real trouble climbing out of the pain of the moment and filling myself with positive thoughts. I would be very appreciative for any Eitzos.April 27, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #762107
SilentOne – “For obvious reasons, it is diffciult to post personal information (such as dollar amount of support) publically.”
Why? No one knows who you are here.
Many men in your situation will complain but will not follow through on child support and other commitments and it’s the children who suffer as a result of their deadbeat dads. Just ask the yeshivos who are left with unpaid tuition from these deadbeat defiant uncaring fathers. And guess who ends up paying; everyone else with increased tuitions.April 27, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #762108HealthParticipant
SilentOne – Listen to me, how fast you get a civil divorce is really up to you. Did she file for divorce or did you? You would be surprised that even though they want the world out of you, their lawyer usually brings them down to earth. Don’t be scared and do what you have to do for yourself and for your kids. Even though I’m civily divorced, I’m always back in court. You always will have to deal with her or at least until your kids are grown.
Get yourself a Good lawyer, who A. won’t drag it out forever and B. puts your interests first. This isn’t too hard to find. And don’t worry, it’s not the end of the world. The hard part is finding someone else to marry, not getting the civil divorce!April 27, 2011 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #762109SusieMember
why not try turning the tables and having her setup with someone she would like to marry, or davening for her to find her b’shert.I bet she will be willing to get the civil divorce over real soon once she is ready to move on.April 27, 2011 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #762110
I keep the Garden of Emuna handy. It was invaluable in helping me cope with my father’s hospitalization and death. I read it when it first came out and I didn’t connect with the writing at all. Then the sefer somehow appeared during my stay at my father’s bedside and the words rang true for me. I read many chapters to my father and I am sure that although he could barely respond, he was also comforted. When other family members were devastated I handed them the book and they too were able to draw comfort.
When we are told to be dan lekaf zechus it is much more than making excuses for someone else’s bad behavior. The mitzva is to not bear any bad feeling whatsoever. it sounds super human, however nothing in our Torah is impossible. I found the work of Byron Katie helpful in understanding how thoughts affect behavior. Our thoughts create our reality. For example: If we believe that someone insulted us then generally we will act on it and cause a chain of negative events. We need to question thoughts by asking if they are really true. Can I absolutely know that this is true? When you think that painful thought notice what happens to you physically. Who would you be without that painful thought? Then you turn the thought around and try to find three ways that each turnaround is truer than what you originally believed.
I hope I am not boring you but here is an example of how this worked for me. My father oH was a concentration camp survivor. In the hospital he was in agonizing pain (despite the strongest painkillers). I kept having the thought that “he’s been through enough, he shouldn’t be in more pain”. Of course this thought caused me deep anguish and added even more pain to this situation. I was a physical wreck and cried a lot. Deep down I felt that there was a lack on integrity on my part and I needed to discover why I felt this way. I had to question my belief that he shouldn’t be in pain. I said, My father shouldn’t be in pain”. Then I turned it around and said “I shouldn’t be in so much pain”. It hit me that I was experiencing tremendous suffering witnessing his pain which was not doing anyone any good at all. I realized that his pain is not for me to comment on, this is Hashem’s doing. Plus there was my father suffering and me suffering, too-doing no good for him or me-just adding more to his pain. I continued “Where would I be without this thought?” My honest answer was “Able to be there for him one hundred percent.” Freeing myself from this thought allowed me to be there for him totally and unselfishly. I became what he needed to see, a cheerful devoted smiling, competent daughter. When I came to this realization and let go of my erroneous beliefs, I changed and I saw a change in my father, and he gripped my hand very very tightly as though he understood the thought process going on in my head. He died shortly after that and I believed he knew that I would be okay-that I could let him go and live my life without him in this world. The process was not overnight, and the old thoughts kept returning every time I saw his catheter filled with blood and his gasping for breath on a respirator. Seeing his body erode into skin and bones…I had to really go through this thought process constantly and many times I was unsuccessful. I just kept at it until I really felt that I was being honest with myself. I knew I was doing all the hishtadlus known to us, and was on the phone to Rav Elyashiv every step of the way. I know that this pain accomplished something for my father and that for some reason I was chosen to be the child to see it the most clearly. In helping him by being there for him I was able to ask mechila for everyone in our family and have him say viduy (before the respirator). I organized tehillim, and acts of chesed on his behalf. Additionally I dealt with the hospital paperwork, doctors and insurance.
My thinking was the cause of all of my suffering and by questioning it and turning it around I was free of the misery and able to be there and be productive. If you read this all the way to the end I hope it is mechazek!April 27, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #762111Joseph613Member
Letting Go of Destructive Bitterness
One of the silent epidemics that unfortunately plagues our orthodox community is one that is grossly ignored by the masses and not properly reported by the media. Mothers who seek to hurt their ex-husbands by withholding their children from their biological fathers, who have been granted legal rights to visitation, are known to engage in cruel tactics that cause deep emotional wounds for both the father and his young children. Women have traditionally been perceived as the victims, such as the plight of agunot, a hot topic that garners much sympathy and support for innocent and helpless souls. However, fathers without sufficient funds to defend themselves in court against vindictive ex-wives find themselves in a painful vise as well.April 27, 2011 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #762112
wow! emuna that was beautiful – thanks for sharing that.April 27, 2011 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #762113porParticipant
Emuna’s posts are indeed wonderful, and I know a number of people who’ve found great solace and inspiration in the Garden of Emuna. My humble contribution is to urge you to find not only a lawyer whom you trust but, more importantly, a Rav whom you trust and whom you feel understands you and let him guide you as to how to proceed in everything. Hatzlocho.April 27, 2011 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #762114shev143Member
For anyone considering divorce, the courts (lawyers) love to drag the cases often for years because it puts more money in their pockets. In the end you will have given most of your $ to the system and you’ll get back very little for it. Instead I know someone who is a terrific mediator. He works with both parties and saves them the time, headache and you get to keep your $ for yourselves and your children instead of giving it to the system.April 28, 2011 12:25 am at 12:25 am #762115BSDMember
Can you try going back to bais din and arguing mekach ta’us? Maybe if you can rescind the get you can use that as a bargaining tool?April 28, 2011 3:49 am at 3:49 am #762116
Thank you very much for your most touching words. They are very much appreciated and deeply moved me.
I find it very hard to go on alone, feeling like a “halbe-mentch”, especially after having been emotionally tossed around like a rag-doll throughout the 15+ year marriage, during which my ex-wife stopped going to the Mikvah numerous times for months a time. Lest someone say I must have been a beast and treated her in a crude, insensitive manner; on the contrary-I will have the testimony of Rabboim who will verify that I constantly consulted with my Rov how to speak to her with utmost Derech Eretz and sensitivity, how to be as humanly nice as possible to her (not just during the Chasson-Kallah period, but throughout the marriage). I went through counseling to try to become the best husband I could become etc. Now I see myself as continuing to get the raw end of the deal, after giving her the Get when she demanded it and now I can’t get my life back. Do I feel sorry for myself? I am ashamed to say: probably yes. Should I stop this behavior? Absolutely. I am looking for a Mehalech and attitude change to get the strength and Emunah to go on and to believe that there is happiness in a new healthy marriage at the end of the rainbow and to have the stamina and Simchas Hachayim to go on until I reach that time. I have so much to give to another and I am unable to do so on the proper level as long as I languish alone.
Thank you very much everyone for all your advice and support.April 28, 2011 6:28 am at 6:28 am #762117
wow! kol hakavod to you. im yirtza Hashem, everything should work out and you should find someone who is as healthy and yashar as you are.April 28, 2011 7:25 am at 7:25 am #762118porParticipant
If this is any help: There’s no way of knowing for sure but this has the sound of a tikkun from some previous gilgul. In any case, one essential eitza is pouring your heart out to Hashem day and night, as if He were actually sitting in front of you (which He is). He’ll help.April 28, 2011 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #762120
silent- i know someone who went through some similar to what you are describing and I truly am hurt for you. may you be zoche to find happiness soon. Do you have a job that you are busy with? That might help…April 28, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #762121
You ought to know from the many threads on this topic in the CR that there is a large abumdance of women seeking men in the frum community and eventually, any man will do; even those with a lot of baggage and even if the marriage is only with k’dushin and not a civil marriage.April 28, 2011 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #762122aries2756Participant
Silentone, what does your lawyer suggest? Maybe it is time to switch lawyers. There are places where a person can go to get a quicky no fault divorce. Did you lawyer advise you about that?
I am just throwing some ideas out. One thing I do know women do not do well with patient men who ride out the waves. So if you do have a visitation schedule at the moment, I would play the patience game as much as possible, and postpone court dates, play it cool as if everything was hunky dory with you and as if YOU were the one that is in control. Put in a motion for full custody of the children and bring in affidavits from your Rabbonim and all others that you went to during the marriage who can show “cruelty” from the side of your wife such as refusing to go to the mikveh and the like. Bring in proof from the Bais Din that you gave your wife a “get” the minute that she asked for it without giving her a hard time which most men wouldn’t do till after the divorce decree and child custody was arranged. Start turning the tables on her where she can fear losing her hold and losing her kids to you and losing everything in her selfish battle against you. Stop being Mr. Nice guy and fight for your life and your right to have one.April 28, 2011 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #762123VanillaMember
Shev 143, can you post the name of the mediator you are referring to? I’m post divorce but still have some issues that need to be resolved and don’t want to go through court..April 28, 2011 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #762124
I wish we could hear from Mrs.SilentOne since there is always “the rest of the story” which we don’t know about. When a marriage comes to hatred, it is assur to have relations; there could be a Rav who is advising Mrs.SilentOne. Let’s not be overly judgmental without knowing the “other side”.April 28, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #762125
I think aries2756 gave good advice.
cherrybim: When your child comes crying to you that a bully beat her up, do you tell her you need to first get the bully’s side of the story before you can sympathize with her?April 28, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #762126
cherrybim: It isn’t assur to have relations; it’s very assur to refuse it.April 28, 2011 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #762127am yisrael chaiParticipant
Sorry, it is assur when there’s hatred.April 28, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #762128
very assur to refuse it?? never heard of that oneApril 28, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #762129ZeesKiteParticipant
It is assur to hate.April 28, 2011 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #762130
I have heard that its assur to refuse it but had no idea that it has to do with being hurt/upset at your spouse…. learn new things each day!April 28, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #762131
adorable- IT IS IN NO WAY ASSUR TO REFUSE
Im getting all worked up and Im trying to think of what to say but its not working out..
Just make sure u have a normall Kallah teacher b4 u get married..April 28, 2011 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #762132
s2021, she becomes a moredes for refusing and loses her kesuba.April 28, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #762133
um there is a little of a discrepency here…. is it assur for her to refuse forever? we are not talking about a one time thingApril 28, 2011 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #762134
Rambam – Ishus – 15:1
?. ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????. ??”? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????. ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????:April 28, 2011 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #762135
if I understand correctly she may refuse. If he has children then ok if not then he has a chiyuv to have children and must persist? correct or not?
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