April 7, 2013 3:26 am at 3:26 am #608875
I am wondering about why Morid Ha Tal is not said in a Nusach Ashkenaz Shul from Pesach until Sukkot. My question is specifically for people living in Chutz L’Aretz. I believe Morid Ha Tal is said in EY in a Nusach Ashkenaz Shul. I know Chabad as well as other Chasidim include Morid Ha Tal in the Shomoneh Esrei. Art Scroll does not include the insertion of Morid Ha Tal, only Geshem is included. What is the source of the omission of Tal for Nusach Ashkenaz?April 7, 2013 7:12 am at 7:12 am #943663
Sephardim also say Morid Ha Tal too. I heard that people that daven Nusach Ashkenaz in EY, have adopted the Sephardi minhag and say Tal there. I hope my question/observations are clear/accurate and understandable.April 7, 2013 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #943664Torah613TorahParticipant
It’s in the Vilna Siddur which is Nusach Ashkenaz but only for people living in Eretz Yisrael.April 7, 2013 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #943665Sam2Participant
What’s the source of inclusion for Tal? The basis for not saying it is that it’s irrelevant (see the Gemara in Taanis).April 8, 2013 2:23 am at 2:23 am #943666LogicianParticipant
Sam2 – presumably tal shel brocho (if i’m remembering the quote correctly)April 8, 2013 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #943667BaalHaboozeParticipant
Can anyone explain what the gain/benefit of dew has, and what is the difference between ‘tal shel bracha’ and one that isn’t ‘shel bracha’?April 8, 2013 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #943668zaidy78Participant
I once heard that when the talmidei haGro finally reached Eretz Yisroel, the talmidei haBesh”t were already there. As a way of making peace with them they accepted 4 or 5 things from the talmidei haBesh”t. One was V’sayn Tal UMatar. (I think one was sim sholom at mincha).
(I think birkas kohanim came from the Sphardim that were already there. It is known that the Gra wanted to reinstate birkas kohanim in Vilna but that he recieved a siman min haShamayim that he shouldn’t.)April 8, 2013 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #943669nem621Member
the gemara only mentions moshiv haruach u morid a geshem not saying that those who do insert morid hatal are doing something bad but that is the reason nusach ashkenaz in chutz la’aretz don’t say itApril 8, 2013 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #943670yanki613Member
whats the point in saying tefilas tal on rishon shel pesach and then omitting it all together do u do that with tefilas geshem?April 9, 2013 1:46 am at 1:46 am #943671
yanki613 tefilas geshem is said by everyone. My point for starting this thread was to find the source of Nusach Ashkenaz for the omission of tal. Sam2 what dof in Tanis is this refrence found? Would one who davens Nusach Ashkenaz include tal, if they were leading the minion in a shul that says tal?April 9, 2013 2:05 am at 2:05 am #943672gotbeerParticipantApril 9, 2013 6:53 am at 6:53 am #943673sonMember
zaidy78: That ma’ase is a bit hard to swallow. The Gra davened Nusach Polin (except in instances mentioned by his talmidim where he was cholek on the ‘popular’ nusach). The earlier siddurim of Nusach Polin have “Sim Shalom” written in for Shabbos Mincha, while later Nusach Polin siddurim seemed to switch to “Shalom Rav”. As a result it’s not clear what the Gra did, but it’s entirely possible he himself said Sim Shalom. The minhag in E”Y to say Sim Shalom by mincha on Shabbos in this case is from the influence of the Sefardim.
Outside of that, based on ???? ??? ???? ? and the Biur Ha’Gra there, it looks like he sides with the Mechaber (that one would be chozer also on morid ha’tal).
Though I haven’t seen it myself as I don’t think I’d begin to understand the sefer and as a result don’t own a copy, the siddur Ezor Eliyahu (Ashkenaz Al Pi Ha’Gra) mentions that based on the Biur Ha’Gra to Sefer Yetzira (?”? ?”?) it looks like the Gra would say “Mashiv haruach u’morid ha’tal”.
The minhag in E”Y is based on the Sefardim and Chassidim. That “mashiv ha’ruach” isn’t mentioned seemingly is in line with the fact that Sefardim don’t mention “mashiv ha’ruach” in their tefilas tal, whereas by Ashkenaz it appears as “Sho’ata hu mashiv ha’ruach u’morid ha’tal”April 9, 2013 7:30 am at 7:30 am #943674Pardes HouseMember
The Gerrer Rebbe Shlita asked in his first pesach as Rebbe why Nusach Ashkenaz say Tefillas Tal, and then not go on to say Morid HaTal?April 9, 2013 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #943675yanki613Member
exactly pardes my point exactly why does nusach askenaz omit it tal is huge brachaApril 9, 2013 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #943676old manParticipant
“Ashkenaz doesn’t say Tefilas Tal.”
They absolutely do say Tefilas Tal. They say it before the private shmoneh esrei (amidah), thereby avoiding the awkwardness of the tzibbur saying something different than what the chazan says in chazaras hashatz. There are places that the tzibbur says morid hatal but the tefillah for tal is said afterward, in chazaras hashatz.
I do not know of any shul in Israel where they skip saying morid hatal after Pesach as in chutz la’aretz. Maybe there are a few, but I have never seen one.April 9, 2013 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #943677nem621Member
the daf in taanis is the very first mishnaApril 10, 2013 5:31 am at 5:31 am #943678
Thanks nem621. Old man you are right. My original question was specifically for people living outside-not in EY. People who live in chutz l’aretz who daven Nusach Ashkenaz,generally do not say tal in their silent amidah. One exception outside EY that I know of is, if someone who would normally daven Nusach Ashkenaz in a tal shul and they were leading the minion , then the minhag at the shul to say tal would be said by the Nusach Askenazer leading the minion who would normally not say tal. This is done out of derech eretz for the Chasidim and/or Sephardim shul daveners in that particular shul. What I heard is that people living in EY all say tal. I am assuming that the minhag in EY is to do so.April 10, 2013 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #943679charliehallParticipant
“They absolutely do say Tefilas Tal. They say it before the private shmoneh esrei (amidah)”
Every Nusach Ashkenaz shul I’ve ever been in has the chazan recite Tefilat Tal during the repetition of the Shemoneh Esrei. It is in the Artscroll Nusach Ashkenaz Machzor.
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