- This topic has 17 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I am wondering about why Morid Ha Tal is not said in a Nusach Ashkenaz Shul from Pesach until Sukkot. My question is specifically for people living in Chutz L’Aretz. I believe Morid Ha Tal is said in EY in a Nusach Ashkenaz Shul. I know Chabad as well as other Chasidim include Morid Ha Tal in the Shomoneh Esrei. Art Scroll does not include the insertion of Morid Ha Tal, only Geshem is included. What is the source of the omission of Tal for Nusach Ashkenaz?
It’s in the Vilna Siddur which is Nusach Ashkenaz but only for people living in Eretz Yisrael.
What’s the source of inclusion for Tal? The basis for not saying it is that it’s irrelevant (see the Gemara in Taanis).
Sam2 – presumably tal shel brocho (if i’m remembering the quote correctly)
Can anyone explain what the gain/benefit of dew has, and what is the difference between ‘tal shel bracha’ and one that isn’t ‘shel bracha’?
I once heard that when the talmidei haGro finally reached Eretz Yisroel, the talmidei haBesh”t were already there. As a way of making peace with them they accepted 4 or 5 things from the talmidei haBesh”t. One was V’sayn Tal UMatar. (I think one was sim sholom at mincha).
(I think birkas kohanim came from the Sphardim that were already there. It is known that the Gra wanted to reinstate birkas kohanim in Vilna but that he recieved a siman min haShamayim that he shouldn’t.)
the gemara only mentions moshiv haruach u morid a geshem not saying that those who do insert morid hatal are doing something bad but that is the reason nusach ashkenaz in chutz la’aretz don’t say it
whats the point in saying tefilas tal on rishon shel pesach and then omitting it all together do u do that with tefilas geshem?
Ashkenaz doesn’t say Tefilas Tal.
If you daven ashkenaz and daven for the amud, you follow the shul’s minhag and would say Tal….
zaidy78: That ma’ase is a bit hard to swallow. The Gra davened Nusach Polin (except in instances mentioned by his talmidim where he was cholek on the ‘popular’ nusach). The earlier siddurim of Nusach Polin have “Sim Shalom” written in for Shabbos Mincha, while later Nusach Polin siddurim seemed to switch to “Shalom Rav”. As a result it’s not clear what the Gra did, but it’s entirely possible he himself said Sim Shalom. The minhag in E”Y to say Sim Shalom by mincha on Shabbos in this case is from the influence of the Sefardim.
Outside of that, based on ???? ??? ???? ? and the Biur Ha’Gra there, it looks like he sides with the Mechaber (that one would be chozer also on morid ha’tal).
Though I haven’t seen it myself as I don’t think I’d begin to understand the sefer and as a result don’t own a copy, the siddur Ezor Eliyahu (Ashkenaz Al Pi Ha’Gra) mentions that based on the Biur Ha’Gra to Sefer Yetzira (?”? ?”?) it looks like the Gra would say “Mashiv haruach u’morid ha’tal”.
The minhag in E”Y is based on the Sefardim and Chassidim. That “mashiv ha’ruach” isn’t mentioned seemingly is in line with the fact that Sefardim don’t mention “mashiv ha’ruach” in their tefilas tal, whereas by Ashkenaz it appears as “Sho’ata hu mashiv ha’ruach u’morid ha’tal”
The Gerrer Rebbe Shlita asked in his first pesach as Rebbe why Nusach Ashkenaz say Tefillas Tal, and then not go on to say Morid HaTal?
exactly pardes my point exactly why does nusach askenaz omit it tal is huge bracha
“Ashkenaz doesn’t say Tefilas Tal.”
They absolutely do say Tefilas Tal. They say it before the private shmoneh esrei (amidah), thereby avoiding the awkwardness of the tzibbur saying something different than what the chazan says in chazaras hashatz. There are places that the tzibbur says morid hatal but the tefillah for tal is said afterward, in chazaras hashatz.
I do not know of any shul in Israel where they skip saying morid hatal after Pesach as in chutz la’aretz. Maybe there are a few, but I have never seen one.
the daf in taanis is the very first mishna
“They absolutely do say Tefilas Tal. They say it before the private shmoneh esrei (amidah)”
Every Nusach Ashkenaz shul I’ve ever been in has the chazan recite Tefilat Tal during the repetition of the Shemoneh Esrei. It is in the Artscroll Nusach Ashkenaz Machzor.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.