April 10, 2011 4:23 am at 4:23 am #596209
Is there any mekor for giving a diamond wedding ring (at the engagement or whenever), or is it just another bad habit we picked up from the goyim?
From what I read, the De Beers diamond cartel popularized diamond wedding rings with their advertising motto of “diamonds are forever”. Before that, the vast majority of engagements/weddings, even by goyim, didn’t include a diamond ring.April 10, 2011 5:39 am at 5:39 am #763441Know.it.allMember
truth is i couldn’t find any reason for this popular custom and its definitely not given at the chupah, but i guess a diamond is forever.
or is it just another bad habit we picked up from the goyim?
how about they picked up a good habit from us?April 10, 2011 6:01 am at 6:01 am #763442
“truth is i couldn’t find any reason for this popular custom and its definitely not given at the chupah”
“how about they picked up a good habit from us?”
That appears contradictory. You’re saying there is no mekor. Then you’re saying the goyim picked it up from us. Since when have we been doing this “minhug”? Apparently since we picked it up from them, if there is no mekor.
Did our zaida’s have this diamond giving engagement ring tradition 100 years ago and earlier?April 10, 2011 6:05 am at 6:05 am #763443eclipseMember
Our elteh zaidas gave NOSE-RINGS.April 10, 2011 6:06 am at 6:06 am #763444always hereParticipant
misleading, confusing title: not wedding ring–> diamond engagement ring.April 10, 2011 6:08 am at 6:08 am #763445smartcookieMember
Who cares? I love my diamond ring!! 😉April 10, 2011 6:31 am at 6:31 am #763446
In addition to the earlier issues, could there not be a chashash or sofek kiddushin by giving an engagement ring altogether?April 10, 2011 6:46 am at 6:46 am #763447ZachKessinMember
the Idea that an engagement ring MUST be a diamond dates to the 1950’s or so and probably did start with DeBeers. If you want to give a Diamond ring by all means do so, but don’t think its some custom that has always been there, its modern.
Oh and if possible find out where your Diamond came from. Some come from parts of Africa where they are mined by slave labor.April 10, 2011 8:17 am at 8:17 am #763448RABBAIMParticipant
1-And how much do you pay the cleaning lady here in NY?? How much better is that than slave wages?
2- But now that it became the norm, NOT to give it shows disrespect unless you are part of the Kehilla which is using CZ for everyone.April 10, 2011 10:44 am at 10:44 am #763449apushatayidParticipant
Not sure about diamonds specifically, but a single diamond ring is hardly anything when compared to the camels laden with all sorts of jewlery we find eliezer bringing to rivka when doing a shidduch for yitzchak.
The mishna in kiddushin regarding erusin is also pretty clear, kessef OR shava kessef. I don’t have the daf right now but in the sugya of “trichi shuma” there is a tosfos that discusses whether one should use precious stones for nissuin or not and concludes for nissuin a plain band is customary, nobody has to be a baki how much it is worth. Perhaps that is why the expensive stuff was reserved for the erusin (our engagement today _ is sort of the erusin of those days) where “bekiin bishuma” is not a factor. Just a guess. I’m sure the CR poskim will be out in full force a bit later to clarify for everyone.April 10, 2011 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #763450walton157Member
@ZachKessin: You bring up an excellent point about African mined slave labor.
If I may suggest, there is a book titled “Deluxe: How Luxury Lost Its Luster” by Dana Thomas. This is one of the best books I have ever read. I couldn’t put it down. It has changed the way I shop for clothing, pocketbooks and any other purchases I make.
Thank you for bringing this important issue to light.April 10, 2011 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #763451Darchei NoamMember
Unfortunately there are other things too that we picked up from our surrounding foreign cultures.April 10, 2011 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #763452WolfishMusingsParticipant
could there not be a chashash or sofek kiddushin by giving an engagement ring altogether?
No, we’ve been over this.
He knows he’s not giving the ring for kiddushin, she knows that she’s not accepting it for kiddushin and anyone viewing it knows that the ring is not for kiddushin because there’s going to be a proper kiddushin later.
The WolfApril 10, 2011 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #763453yogiboobooMember
well lubavitch dont give the diamond ring till after the chuppah!April 10, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #763454yenta.morphMember
Many are careful that the Chohon’s mother or sister give the ring & other gifts, No Eidim etc to make it obvious it is not ??? ???????April 10, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #763455eclipseMember
Should I repeat my joke, or it’s just not funny?April 10, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #763456Know.it.allMember
Many are careful that the Chohon’s mother or sister give the ring & other gifts, No Eidim etc to make it obvious it is not ??? ???????
for those that are makpid, some aren’t makpid on yichud and negiah.
IM GLAD LUBAVITCH ONLY GIVES IT AFTER THE CHUPPAH 🙂April 10, 2011 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #763457always hereParticipant
altho’ it’s my son-in-law’s family’s custom to give the engagement ring after the chuppah (Lubavitch), my daughter wanted her ring earlier; come to think of it, her mother-in-law gave it to her @ the vort, after calling in my son-in-law from the men’s section.April 10, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #763458
know.it.all: I’d venture to say that those who are makpid are generally more makpid on the other issues as well.April 10, 2011 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #763459yogiboobooMember
KIA-is that sarcasm?April 10, 2011 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #763460geshmakebachur3Member
yogi, you got yours bef. your wedding!April 11, 2011 2:52 am at 2:52 am #763461mewhoParticipant
i heard the diamond wedding band is given after the marriage is consumatedApril 11, 2011 6:31 am at 6:31 am #763462ZachKessinMember
And how much do you pay the cleaning lady here in NY?? How much better is that than slave wages?
Well it depends, are you holding a gun to your cleaning lady’s head? When I say slave labor I mean slave labor. As in people who don’t work get shot on the spot, not someone paid minimum wage to clean a house.
And for the record we clean our own house.May 3, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #763463
Is there any mekor for a white wedding dress or a wedding veil?May 3, 2011 4:02 am at 4:02 am #763464StuffedCabbageMember
Rivka wore a veil when she met Yitzchak….idk if thats the mekor but its sounds smart!! lolMay 3, 2011 4:05 am at 4:05 am #763465rosesharonMember
NevermindMay 3, 2011 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #763466SJSinNYCMember
shlishi, women wore white on Tu B’Av.
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