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A few years back while I was in yeshiva, a peer of mine told me that no one has been to the moon. I thought he was just humoring me, however he was dead serious. He told me we don’t believe anyone’s been to the moon. I was shocked that he said such a thing when we have all of this proof that we’ve landed on the moon on numerous occasions. Anyone have an answer as to why he said this?
Weird….
?ns ?o suo?????do ?o p??? pu? ‘??p???? ‘??puno? ???
(319bu?ddo?s) 319[$]
[$]613 (Shopping613)
The Founder, Awarder, and Head of Operations of SUC
The Rambam holds that the moon is a spiritual place not a physical place so a landing was not possible.
Rav Yaakov Kamminetsky when the original moon landing occured rushed to watch it on TV as he wanted to know if the Rambam was right or wrong.
Well, the Rambam held that the moon was not a physical entity, so if someone wanted to defend that position, he would have to say the whole thing was a hoax.
Anyone have an answer as to why he said this?
Why do you want us to answer why someone believes in something that is counterfactual?
The Wolf
Occams razor would say that it is simpler that he just lied, than that they actually landed on the moon.
It wouldn’t take a complicated conspiracy; just a few dudes at NASA.
zahavasdad -“The Rambam holds that the moon is a spiritual place not a physical place so a landing was not possible.”
Source?
“Rav Yaakov Kamminetsky when the original moon landing occured rushed to watch it on TV as he wanted to know if the Rambam was right or wrong.”
That’s not what I heard. I heard he said that Pshat is noone can touch any heavenly objects. So how did man touch the moon? He answered- if you can only touch it with a spacesuit -this isn’t called touching.
Source?
Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 2:4
Its those FreeMasons again!
Just because the moon is a rock doesnt contradict the fact that it is, in some way, sentient. As it so happens, the statement about the moon is a Zohar in a few places. He says thats what it means when it says “Yetzorom Bdaas bebinah uvehaskel” – that Hashem created the luminaries including their wisdom. Rav Chaim Kanievsky also, in Kiryas Melech, goes through the Rambam in Hilchos Deos bringing sources for just about every statement there. Rav Schneur Kotler ZTL said that he remembers that Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk ZTL once said that there are people who hold Rambam was wrong, and they are totally wrong, and he (Rav Meir Simchah) would really write a sefer showing that every word of the Rambams Hilchos Deos is culled from Chazal, but the Malbim already wrote such a Sefer so he doesn’t need to. Rav Schneur continued, that nobody knew what Rav Meir Simcha was referring to by the Sefer of the Malbim until a few years ago (about 35 years ago from today) they reprinted a Sefer from the Malbim showing that the Rambam’s Hilchos Deos was all from Chazal.
Well, the Rambam held that the moon was not a physical entity, so if someone wanted to defend that position, he would have to say the whole thing was a hoax.
Forget the moon landings… that would have to mean that all the other moon missions that landed on the moon (i.e. the unmanned ones) as well as those in lunar orbit are ALL fakes (since you can’t land an object on a non-physical entity and the data the orbiters are gathering would obviously be false).
In addition, I don’t believe the Rambam’s statements are limited to the moon, but to all heavenly bodies (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). So the Mars rovers, the Voyager and Pioneer missions, the Cassini mission and on and on would have to be faked as well.
Thus we’re left with a number of possibilities:
1. The Rambam was wrong on this.
2. The entire enterprise of space exploration is a hoax, covering multiple nations in direct competition with each other and who would have loved to be able to prove the other side was faking an accomplishment (think back to the US/USSR space race)
3. The Rambam is not speaking b’pashtus.
4. Fill in your own possibility here.
I’ll leave it to you to decide which is the case.
The Wolf
daasyochid- NOPE ! You are misquoting the Rambam and, dare I say, misrepresenting what R’ Yaakov MAY have said. The Rambam- in the halocho that you mention- does NOT speak about the moon (or other heavenly bodies) at all. He speaks about “malochim”- angels. Please check again.
And,actually ,in the mishne before that (3), he specifically addresses the heavenly bodies and says that THEY ARE PHYSICAL- just the opposite that you said. What he says is that that world- “olam hagalgalim”- is fixed and never changes- in contrast to the living world (us) that changes all the time (birth, growth, death).
I don’t know what R’Yaakov zz’l said but ,based on this Rambam, he clearly did not say anything that is being quoted.
Where have you fond a source for this? in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 2:4?? It talks about Malachim there!
All I see in 3:1 is the Rambam mentioning the moon as one of the Galagalim, such as the stars and the sun…
no, he was just ‘moonlighting’
I don’t KNOW, but I believe.
hang on, did bin laden really die?
how about saddam hussein?
hang on, did bin laden really die?
how about saddam hussein?
Bin Laden was a member of the Bilderberg Group, and was eliminated by the order of the Illuminati.
Saddam is alive. They killed his clone, and he himself was ables to escape & is now a member of the Blue Man Group (ever wonder why they are blue)?
If the Rambam held that it is not physical, only spiritual, then you can only see it in a dream! Now, what does that say about me?
“if you can only touch it with a spacesuit -this isn’t called touching.”
However, loads of moon rock were brought back for public viewing and touching.
This brings up the bigger question
What is your response when modern science contradicts Chazal or a Gadol Like the Rambam
Is your response
1) Chazal were only commenting on Science known in those days and could be wrong on those issue
2) Chazal were correct and Modern Science is wrong
3) We did not understand Chazal
4) Chazal were correct in those days and the Science has changed
5) Chazal and science are talking about two different aspects.
kfb, your friend was probably living in a dream world after his first couple of years in israel. Some people go to extremes just to put themselves in a special mindsets. I bet this guy was the same guy who moved to the UWS and went off the derech.
5) Chazal and science are talking about two different aspects.
Ah, yes, the famous “lice come from eggs but they don’t *really* come from eggs” answer.
The Wolf
However, loads of moon rock were brought back for public viewing and touching.
In their defense, I suppose you could argue that once it’s separated from the moon, it’s no longer “moon,” much the same way that dirt separated from Eretz Yisroel is no longer considered part of Eretz Yisroel (i.e. foods grown in such dirt are not subject to tevel restrictions, etc.).
The Wolf
There is no proof that the moon is solid in any way.
A small conspiracy aimed at scaring the Russians is a far more plausible explanation than that we somehow were able to land and then take off again from the moon.
“lice come from eggs but they don’t *really* come from eggs”
I always understood this answer to mean that Chazal was wrong, and Al Pi Teva of their time they should have made the other Halachic choice, but none the less Halachicly they are right. This is because Hashem makes/changes the Teva in an unnoticable way (that we do not understand) so that the Teva will follow the P’sak of Chazal.
Correct me if I am wrong?
I always understood this answer to mean that Chazal was wrong, and Al Pi Teva of their time they should have made the other Halachic choice, but none the less Halachicly they are right. This is because Hashem makes/changes the Teva in an unnoticable way (that we do not understand) so that the Teva will follow the P’sak of Chazal.
I’m not sure I followed what you were saying, exactly.
The Wolf
Wolf:
I understand it to mean that Chazal made the wrong Halachic decision. None the less, since Halacha follows Chazal, Teva changes slightly so that the halachic definition of “grows from an egg” can no longer include Lice, and as such they are now correctly excluded. This may also include changing the Halachic definition, but since that is also defined by Chazal, even if they did not mean to change the Halachic definition, none the less it is changed.
1) Chazal were only commenting on Science known in those days and could be wrong on those issue
2) Chazal were correct and Modern Science is wrong
3) We did not understand Chazal
4) Chazal were correct in those days and the Science has changed
I go for 1, which probably makes me a total heretic and chayav missah.
coming from “the gatesheader’. it indeed was a a surprising answer but don’t worry- you are no a heretic at all. The chazal themsleves realized that their knowledge of science is not perfect nor final. see Pesaschim about the earth and the sun, where the chazal say that the view of the gentiles is more logical.
Would the venerable CR members consider it a cop out for someone to forego trying to argue with chazal, or figure out what they meant, and just say “teiku” ?
Normally I wouldn’t even give this question the dignity of answering in a debate, but yes Neil Armstrong and 11 others have walked on the moon, with several others having spent some time in lunar orbit. All I can say about the conspiracy theories is that society has come to a very sad state when people pretend to be intellectuals by denigrating or denying the accomplishments of others. Since I’ve heard this conspiracy stuff from a bachurim in a number of yeshivos, it makes me wonder just exactly what other kinds of hooey they’re teaching, and if they can even be trusted regarding Torah itself.
Anyone who thinks the moon landing is a hoax should watch the Mythbusters episode in which they clearly bust all aspects of this myth. There are even methods to detect artifacts that were intentionally left behind on the moon by the astronauts who were up there. See the episode for more details.
kfb: Apparently not believing in the moon landing is a common conspiracy theory.
rob,
You’re right, the source I found was a typo, it’s actually 2:3, and not so clear in what way the heavenly bodies differ from the things we find here on Earth, but apparently, it’s normally understood to mean that they are not solid enough to land on. On YU’s Torah site, there’s a lecture from R’ Nosson Kamenetzky in which he supposedly relates the story with his father zt”l (although I didn’t listen to it), and it may have been recounted in Yonoson Rosenblum’s R’ Yaakov biography, although I don’t have it in front of me and I don’t remember it with certainty. I do remember that Rosenblum got much of his information from R’ Nosson.
FTR, and FWIW, I personally think Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. I’m just explaining what the motivation could be for someone to deny it.
There are many differences between moon rock and earth rock.
1. Moon rocks are anhydrous; no entrained water at all. And no water involved in their formation.
2. There’s no weathering. Moon dust has lots of minuscule jagged structures, while rock dust on Earth has these spires worn off.
3. More titanium in moon rocks than Earth rocks.
daasyochid- i cannotvouch for what R’Yaakov zz,; said. But i do know that the Rambam you are referring to- 2-3- clearly writes that the heavenly bodies (olam hagalgalim) are physical and exist in full reality. Check the words “megushem” -measning earthly and real.
Supposedly, when this conspiracy theory had a huge tracking in the 90s, a reporter visited Buzz Aldrin’s house and asked him if he actually ever walked on the moon. Buzz responded by punching the reporter in the face.
On the subject of Neil Armstrong – what a shame he fluffed up that line on such an unprecedented historic occasion.
‘One mall step for man, one giant leap for mankind.’
If he would have said ‘…for A man…’ it would have made sense. The way he said it, ‘man’ and ‘mankind’ mean exactly the same.
Trust me…he did but he was only first cuz he pushed the other guy out of th way…….
?ns ?o suo?????do ?o p??? pu? ‘??p???? ‘??puno? ???
(319bu?ddo?s) 319[$]
[$]613 (Shopping613)
The Founder, Awarder, and Head of Operations of SUC
“Buzz punched reporter in the face:”
I rarely agree with Buzz Aldrin on things, but that reporter deserved it. On that one, Buzz was 100% correct!
Apparently Neil Armstrong used to tell unfunny jokes about the Moon, and follow them up with , ” Ah, I guess you had to be there.”
there were lots of ‘proofs’ by conspiracy theorists that there never was a moon landing, but those were all ‘shlogged’ up. people will come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories for almost anything these days
I remember watching a long video on you tube regarding this conspiracy, it looked quite convincing.
READ my previous comment if you have a sense of humor.
WIY – lol
it is interesting to note that when Neil Armstrong died in August, it was in a month that had 2 full moons (a rare occurance known as “a blue moon”), the first Aug.2 and then again on Aug. 31
pretty cool huh?
On the ball: He actually said “a man”. Watch the videos on Youtube. It was just very blurry sound quality which caused the whole world to mis-transcribe him.
Nobody or anything touched the moon. They get there and float around but nobody touches the moon. There’s no gravity.
Sam2, I’m pretty sure he wanted to say “a man”, but got mixed up and just said “man.”
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