November 15, 2015 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #616659
Does anyone know any differences between oberlandish and yekkish minhogim?November 15, 2015 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1113108
Oberlandrers minhagim are closer to Chasidim than to Yekkes.November 15, 2015 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1113109
To the best of my knowledge that is not true.November 15, 2015 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1113110
Your knowledge is mistaken. By way of some examples, the Chasidim are big followers of the Chasam Sofer, who is Oberlander. Today many Oberlanders wear Shtriemals. Also take a look at Vien, which is one of the largest Oberlander Kehilos. Or Mattersdorf. And the havara of Oberlanders is the same as that of most Chasidim.November 15, 2015 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1113111
Your knowledge is mistaken.
The Chasam Sofer was an oberlander however minhag chasam sofer is not the same as minhag Oberland. Additionally the Ehrlau chassidus which follow the Chasasam Sofer is a relatively new chassidus. Before the Ehrlau rebbe (who is a Sofer) founded it they were not chassidish.
Many Oberlanders wear streimels because they became chassidish. This is because the oberlander outlook on life (but not their minhogim) was very similar to chassidus’.
Vein used to be Oberland but became more and more chassidish until they reached the point they are at today.
The real oberland havara is nothing like chasidim. This is also something which many oberlanders picked up as they became more and more chassidish.
I am asking regarding the real original oberland minhogim and not what you see in vien and nitra today.November 15, 2015 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1113112
I didn’t mention anything about Ehrlau. I mentioned Mattersdorf. Define what is “Minhag Oberland” and who follows this “Minhag Oberland” that you refer to. Because most actual Oberlander Yidden today don’t.
And the Oberlander havara is very close to the Chasidishe havara. Certainly much closer to the Chasidishe havara than to the Litvishe or the Yekkishe havara.
What gave you this idea that Minhag Oberland is similar to Minhag Yekke? There is a reason that the Oberlanders became very close to the Chasidim and adopted very many of their minhagim.November 15, 2015 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1113113
Minhag oberland means the minhagim that people living in the oberland region of hungary kept in the period right before the war.
Their havara was very unsimilar to the chassidish one.
The reason why almost all oberlanders became chassidish is because of the chassidish mentality of varmkeit (singing etc.), something which did not exist in the litvishe way of life but did in oberland.
It had nothing to do with minhogim.November 15, 2015 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1113114
To the OP’s question: I’m pretty sure Oberlanders say Sim Shalom at mincha but Shalom Rav at maariv, while Yekkes say Shalom Rav at both. Oberlanders and Yekkes come from around the same geographical region, right?
Minhag Ashkenaz goes farther back than the Chasam Sofer in many areas, but in others he is relied upon.
Joseph, I’ve also read (possibly elsewhere in the Coffee Room) that Oberlanders have become very similar to their Chasidishe neighbors. I assume the OP was inquiring about similarities between Minhag Ashkenaz and the pre-Chasidishe-influenced Oberland Minhag.November 15, 2015 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1113115nachumbergParticipant
It seems that everyone is a bit confused here & doen’t relize that the Oberlanders were not influenced by anyone it is we who brought forth all of these beautiful minhagim & later on the Yekkes & Chasidim & even the Litvaks “borrowed” some of these from us.
A proud OberlanderNovember 15, 2015 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1113116
Nachumberg, which kehila are you affiliated with? In Vien I heard some of the shuls changed from Nusach Ashkenaz to Nusach Sefard. Which minhagim are you referring to?November 15, 2015 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1113117
Minhag chasam sofer (ehrleu) is different than minhag oberland. An example of this is the shape of the knot on the teffilin shel rosh.
Nachumberg do you know of any other differences and where do you daven?November 15, 2015 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1113118samthenylicParticipant
Both Yekkes & Oberlanders daven Ashkenasis, & say yozros by davening, including the “siluk” before Kedusha. The way I see it, the two nusach hayozros are slightly different, and in oberland they sing Lecha Dodi & Keil Adon.November 15, 2015 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1113119
Wikipedia says that people often mistake Oberlanders for Yekkes because of their similar customs. I’m not saying whether or not that statement has any weight, but it does at least show that the OP of this thread isn’t the first person to draw the comparison.
Nachum: There were Jews following the Rema before the Oberlanders existed, wouldn’t they be Yekkes? I don’t see how you could assert that Oberlander minhag predates Yekkishe minhag unless we’re just defining it differently.November 16, 2015 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1113120TheGoqParticipant
they make a mighty tasty lady finger cookie.November 16, 2015 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1113121
Perhaps the OP added that to Wikipedia. Or got this idea about Yekkes and Oberlanders from reading Wikipedia. Or from the same source as that website got it. But I’ve never heard that. And it is common knowledge that not only are the Oberlanders currently very closely aligned with Chasidim (as can easily be eyewitnessed by walking through almost any Oberlander neighborhood) on the religious spectrum, but that for centuries many customs of Chasidim and Oberlanders have had great similarities.
The Rema was accepted by far more than just the Yekkes right from the get-go. And not all of frum German Jewry were Yekkes. There were other hashkafos and customs among non-Yekke German Jewry.
(Shoutout to squeak.)November 16, 2015 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1113122
As an oberlander, its hard for me to go through thousands of minhagim throughout the year that are different. Also, I don’t consider my self an expert on Yekkeshe minhagim. A few that come to mind, although I am not completely sure how the Yekkes do it, as as follows: I believe that the Oberlander men went to mikve more often than the Yekkes throughout the year, although that too depended on each family’s individual minhag. The oberlander said Hallel on Pesach night which I don’t think the Yekkes did. In oberland the kohanim did not duchan on a Yom Tov day that fell on Shabbos, except on Yom Kippur, at which time they also sang. Also, oberlander sang by duchaning on Simchas Torah at shachris (don’t know what the yekkes did). Chassidim don’t. In fact, in many oberlander kehillos on Simchas Torah the kohanim sang 3 different songs each time they sang, which may be against halacha (but we know that minhag can override halacha). The oberlander definitely exhibited more emotion during davening, and singing.
Whenever anybody asks me what an oberlander is, I usually answered that they are similar to yekkes, but more to the right. Even in Europe, many oberlander yidden would go to Chassidic rebbes for brachos (forget about the yekkes) and in most oberlander kehillos the Rav that was hired for the town was usually Chassidic. That explains the present affinity to Chassidim and why many oberlander became Chassidic instead of litvaks. I am an oberlander that davens ashkenaz, but find myself more comfortable in a sfard/Chassidic shul because it is closer to what I am. Most present ashkenaz minyanim are litvish/American who don’t say yotzros, etc. In fact, I usually lag behind on Yom Tov night during davening because I also say the Maarovos, which chassidim don’t say, but either do litvaks/americans.
By the way, it is considered minhag Chasam Sofer. Although the Chasam Sofer had many private minhagim that were different, I think minhag Chasam Sofer is really talking about minhag Pressburg during the time that the Chasam Sofer, Ksav Sofer, etc. were the rabbanim there.
I wish I could think of more differences, but there are just too many.November 16, 2015 2:04 am at 2:04 am #1113123
By the way, I believe the Yekke kohanim also sing different designated songs for each Yom Tov, just like in oberland. In other works, the song that the kohanim sang on pesach was different then what they sang on Succos, etc.November 16, 2015 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1113124☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Minhag cannot override halachah.November 16, 2015 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1113125
If we’re defining Minhag Chasam Sofer as Oberland, don’t forget about the Minhag of married women to shave their hair — which is erroneously labeled by some as a strictly Chasidishe Minhag. Never heard of Yekkes doing that but I could be wrong.November 16, 2015 3:50 am at 3:50 am #1113126
The better question is why don’t Oberlander women themselves shave, per the Oberlander halachic ruling of the Chasam Sofer.
Or do they?November 16, 2015 4:58 am at 4:58 am #1113127
I think it’s unfortunately a generational thing, for those that didn’t become Chasidish. It’s definitely a hard nisoyan.November 16, 2015 5:38 am at 5:38 am #1113128
The above is based on purely anecdotal evidence. I’d love to be wrong on this…November 16, 2015 7:48 am at 7:48 am #1113129
Apparently minhag chasam sofer and pressburg, such as women shaving hair, where different to the minhogim in the rest of oberland.
Joseph, I am talking about real oberland, not the state of most formely oberland communities today.November 16, 2015 9:51 am at 9:51 am #1113130
Joseph: What or were is a ‘Oberlander neighborhood’?
How many people do you personally know from either one?
I did not read wikipedia, But the term “oberlander” is not so much before the Chassam sofer. And most minhagim at that time were very similar if not identical. There was little difference before WWII. Like mentioned above there is an extremely common mistake That minhag Chassam Sofer is minhag Pressburg. He was the Rav there and made takanos to keep the kehilla from falling to the Neologgen. The ones who really made the ‘difference’ between them were the Yekkes who started calling them ‘Aust Yude’. So in return they got the name Yekke meaning ‘short jacket’. I guess you can say the difference is the length of the jacket which the ‘yekkes’ have cut.
Why is this important anyway? If you are Jewish as your Rabbi. If you are not Jewish, Why would you want to know? How would it affect you either way?November 16, 2015 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1113131
Joseph : It is NOT a Chassam Sofer ruling for women to shave! Even if his daughters did. A parent giving their child instructions or advice, Even If This Person Is The Rav, does NOT make it a Hallachik ruling.
Why do you throw statement of accusation? Are you an Oberlander? Is your wife an oberlander? How can you say what oberlanders do or don’t do?
Many Americanized – formerly Oberlanders became Modern but continued to call themselves ‘Oberander’ which was another reason for religious oberlander to move toward chassidus.November 16, 2015 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1113132
Does anyone know of any authentic oberland shuls besides “69” in London.November 16, 2015 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1113133
What’s wrong with 69?
It makes a very difference which county your in when describing ‘Oberlander’. If your asking about minhagim like Kittle on R”H, eating in the succah on SH”A, it is the same as Yekes.
The main difference is the hair length they consider chatzitzah. also Oberlander have slightly longer payos (after WWII when all shaved)November 16, 2015 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1113134
Vien and Chasan Sofer (Mattersdorf).November 16, 2015 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1113135
There’s nothing wrong with 69. I was just asking for any other shuls which people may know about.November 16, 2015 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1113136
Nitra in Mt. Kisco?
It was NOT just the Chasam Sofer telling his daughters. It was definitely the Minhag Chasam Sofer, surely kept by the erliche women in Hungary up to WWII, and likely had a much greater following prior to that.
I actually saw an interesting article on OzTorah online about Rabbi Solomon Hirshel trying to enforce it in London of all places.November 16, 2015 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1113137
Where is Vein?
What does Chasan Sofer in Mattersdorf,Hungary have to do with anything?November 16, 2015 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1113138
Vien is from Vienna, Austria now located in Brooklyn, New York.
Chasan Sofer/Mattersdorf are einekelech of the Chasam and Chasan Sofer.
All are true blue Oberlanders.November 16, 2015 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1113139
Sorry my mistake above. The article I read appeared on on the main line called Bald Jewish Women Revisited. It actually has a copy of a Times of London newspaper article where it’s mentioned.November 16, 2015 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1113140zahavasdadParticipant
While its true Reform did not make inroads in Hungry, the Neo’s made big inroads there. The Dohaney Synangogue in Budapest is the second largest synangouge in the world.November 16, 2015 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1113141
mammele: When you say Hungary which yrs do you mean? in Austria it wasn’t so wide spread. But it was still part of Hungary during the time the Ch”S was Rav. (Unless they stopped after they were separated)November 16, 2015 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1113142
Joseph: What are you talking about? Is Vein and Vienna not the same place? Which part of Brooklyn are you referring to?
What are ‘True Blue Oberlander’? Never heard that term in my life! I actually think they do not have the blues.
Where is Chasan Sofer/Mattersdorf? Country? city?November 16, 2015 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1113143
All chasam soferniks are oberlanders but not all oberlanders are chasam soferniks.
Although he had a tremendous influence on hungarian jews he did not encourage them to change their minhogim or keep new minhogim.
Therefore, I think the statement that all ehrliche women in hungary shaved their hair is inaccurate.November 16, 2015 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1113144
Thank you haKohen for that informative contribution to this thread. Out of curiosity (on the topic of the OP), do Oberlanders wash before Kiddush? Make a bracha if they wrap tefillin on Chol HaMoed?
I’m not sure why 555 is trying to be so argumentative. Nobody is making accusations, nobody said anything bad about the “69 Shul,” and as for the question “Why would you want to know? How would it affect you either way?”
Because we’re curious about other’s minhagim. What’s wrong with that?November 16, 2015 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1113145
If you are looking for places around the globe, you can also try ‘Batei Ungaren’. There used to be a ‘Pressburger Minyan’ in/on Meah Shearim (I don’t remember exactly where). But it was shrinking yrs ago so i don’t know if it still exists. The next generation joined Erlau mostly. Possibly they were part of Erlau, or just took him as rav after the war being Ch”S einikel. When they realized he was more Chassidish they separated.
In America they used to call Slichos Ashkenaz what was really Lita. And they did not even print the real Ashkenaz slichos which is closer to Yekkes(except in Washington heights,NY *Yekke town*).November 16, 2015 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1113146
I think it could fairly be said that most Yekkes merged into the Litvish world and minhagim and most Oberlanders merged into the Chasidic world and minhagim.November 16, 2015 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1113147
Based on what is your info?
just a post to avoid explaining your previous post.November 16, 2015 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1113148
Based on what is your info?
Based on being around the block.November 16, 2015 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1113149zahavasdadParticipant
Wien (Pronounced Vien) is the German/Yiddish word for ViennaNovember 16, 2015 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1113150
just a post to avoid explaining your previous post.
Sorry, I didn’t see your question. (It may have been approved after subsequent posts.)
Is Vein and Vienna not the same place? Which part of Brooklyn are you referring to?
The Vienner (?????) Kehilla, Kehal Adas Yereim Vien (??? ??? ????? ?????) originated in Vienna, Austria. Hence their name “Vien”. They are now headquartered in Boro Park, Brooklyn.
Where is Chasan Sofer/Mattersdorf? Country? city?
Yeshiva Ch’san Sofer, led by the Rosh Yeshiva the Mattersdorfer Rov, Rav Simcha Bunim Ehrenfeld shlita, who is on the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of the Agudas Yisroel of America, is also in Boro Park, Brooklyn. His father, Rav Shmuel Ehrenfeld zt’l, the previous Mattersdorfer Rov and Rosh Yeshiva, founded Kiryas Mattersdorf in Yerushalayim.November 16, 2015 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1113151
The oberlander do not wash before Kiddush. As far as a bracha on tefilin on chol hamoed, I believe that most do make a bracha, but I’ve found some that don’t. Also on the first day of chol hamoed Pesach they keep the tefilin on til after leining (not til Hallel) because the parsha of tefilin is read on that day.
By the way, my nephew found an oberlander shul in Yerushalayim where although they duchan every weekday, they don’t duchan on Shabbos!
The old Viener shul in Boro Park (as opposed to the new Avreichim Viener shul) and the Viener in Monsey, still daven ashkenaz and keep the minhagim. Also the Debretzin shul on 16th Ave in Boro Park follows the oberlander minhagim, although their membership has severely diminished over the last few years. I am from out of town and our shul there, because most of the influential members were oberlander, pretty much follow all oberlander minhagim.
I assume the previous poster made reference to Yeshiva Ch’san Sofer in Boro Park, lead by the Matersdorfer Rav and established in the US by his father zt”l. They are grandchildren of the Ch’san Sofer and Ch’sam Sofer. The Ch’san Sofer, his son and his grandson (the previous Rav zt”l) were the rabbonim in Matersdorf until WW2. Their family also established Kiryas Matersdorf in Israel. Matersdorf was definitely in oberland and was considered one of the Sheva Kehillos. However, because of the early years when the previous Rav first arrived in the USA and he was hired as rav by several kehilos on the lower east side that davened sfard, the yeshiva davens sfard, although many of the minhagim are oberland. By the way Pressburg, Nitra, Matersdorf, Debretzin, Papa, Tzeilim, Beregsaz, Serdahel, Galante are some of the oberlander cities that I can think of now.November 16, 2015 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1113152
555: Where is Batei Ungaren?
Hakohen53: Do you have any more information as to where this shul is which your nephew found?
I believe minhag oberland is to make a bracha on teffillin. Also, we dip our finger in the wine at the seder by bdomai’e chayee and of course wear a hoibel when wearing a kittel.
Does anyone know if using a vimpel instead of a gartel is minhag oberland or only a yekkishe minhag?November 16, 2015 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1113153
I’m sorry but I don’t know where in Yerushalayim that shul was located. Batei Ungaren, I believe, is in Meah Shearim to the left of Rechov Meah Shearim where the offices of the Kollel Shomrei Hachomos, the Hungarian Reb Meir Bal Hanes that was established by the K’sav Sofer and Talmidei Ch’sam Sofer. we also dip our finger by domayich chayee, but we use the pinky. I don’t know of any oberlan minhag to have a vimpel. I believe it is exclusive to the yekkes, although I don’t believe they use it as a gartel. And of course, we wear the hoibel, which by the way can be purchased from the wife of the famed mohel Reb Yitzchok Aron Fischer. By the way, although my father did not, there are many oberlander that wear the kittel and hoibel also on Hoshana Rabbah.November 16, 2015 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #1113154CTLAWYERParticipant
Re: Wimpel instead of Gartel
Is this for use on sifrei torah, not on male adults?
My maternal side is Yekke and the Wimpelim from all the brisim have been cleaned, embroidered and used on sifrei torah for generations. I have two sifrei torah from the bungalow colony my grandparents owned decades ago. They are tied with the Wimpelim from my older brother and my Brisim.
No male on that side of the family ever wore a gartel to my knowledge. That’s for Chasidim.November 17, 2015 7:21 am at 7:21 am #1113155
I meant a gartel around the sefer torah, not around a person. The kind that can be found around most sifrei torah today.
We also use our pinky.
How can I get in touch with R’ Yitzchok Aron Fischer?November 17, 2015 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1113156
Mods, I hope this is permitted. Reb Yitzchok Aron Fischer is in Monsey.
Some people use their pointer finger because of “etzba Elokim hu”.
By the way, other minhag differences (I think) may be that Yekkes are not makpid to have the chuppa under the stars and will also march the chosson/kallah to the chuppa mother/father and mother/father. In oberland, if an oberlander yid would do that, the Rav would refuse to be mesader kiddushin. It had to be mother/mother and father/father. I don’t think an oberlander would make a chuppa in a shul either. If my memory serves me right, that was one of the tekanos that had been instituted by the Ch’sam Sofer to combat the maskilim. I haven’t seen the takanos in a long time so I don’t really remember them. I THINK they may include no choirs during davening (compare to yekkes) and that the bima must be in the middle of the shul (not in the front). These tekanos were pretty much universally accepted in oberland.
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