November 11, 2010 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #5930001987Participant
I want to preface this by saying that when the Coffee Room was first started, I used to enjoy reading the different topics. Now, the coffee room has basically become a “bashing forum” where everyone puts in their two cents about what is right, and how everyone else is wrong. I am basically much more to the “right” than most people who post here, but my opinion is ” different strokes for different folks.”
For example, regarding all the kollel bashing that goes on here: Kollel is not right or wrong. For one guy, the right thing is for him to be in kollel, and for another guy, the right thing for him is to get a job. Some fathers would come into the women’s section to dance, some fathers certaintly wont. Everyone can do what they deem is right, and let everyone else do what they want.
when posters “knock” someone else’s point of view, this only leads to sinas chinam and chillul Hashem. For example, in the latest post about going OTD, the person describes how the coffee room is turning him off from yiddishkeit. This is a shame, and a serious problem. Controversial topics always get the most posts in the coffee room, but they also cause the most problems. So before anyone wants to start a new topic that they KNOW will cause such discussions, please refrain.November 11, 2010 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1010250YW Moderator-80Member
popa would you like to comment on this issue?November 11, 2010 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1010251
when the Coffee Room was first started, I used to enjoy reading the different topics. Now, the coffee room has basically become a “bashing forum”
Ummm, which Coffee Room are you talking about? Nothing’s changed in that regard 🙂
What you are forgetting is that there aren’t any “different folks” here. Nope, just you – all the other screen names are Joseph.November 11, 2010 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1010252blinkyParticipant
1987- there is so much positive and humor threads here i hope you read them too:)November 11, 2010 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1010253WIYMember
“So before anyone wants to start a new topic that they KNOW will cause such discussions, please refrain.”
You forgot to take your own advice…or was this what you wanted…?November 11, 2010 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1010254myfriendMember
If someone justifies an anti-Torah position, it is incumbent to strongly protest.November 11, 2010 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1010255bptParticipant
As much as I hate quoting goyim, Henry Ford said, “you can have the car in any color you like.. as long as its black”
Different? Nah, we’re all 99% indentical. Its the 1% in us, that refuses to allow us to see each other in the same light!
(honestly, 1987; read the posts on cognitive disonance or the one from a few weeks back from the BY girl with hashkafah questions) and then tell me if you still think the CR is a “bash fest”)November 11, 2010 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1010256AinOhdMilvadoParticipant
Hard to bash YOU, 1987.
You are correct.November 11, 2010 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1010257popa_bar_abbaParticipant
For example, regarding all the kollel bashing that goes on here: Kollel is not right or wrong. For one guy, the right thing is for him to be in kollel, and for another guy, the right thing for him is to get a job.
Some fathers would come into the women’s section to dance, some fathers certaintly wont.
I don’t know. While I didn’t like the “only my opinion is valid” thought that seemed to come up in that thread, it is a valid topic for conversation, and there may be a right and wrong.
Everyone can do what they deem is right, and let everyone else do what they want.
If you mean there is no right and wrong, I disagree.
For example, in the latest post about going OTD, the person describes how the coffee room is turning him off from yiddishkeit. This is a shame, and a serious problem.
I took that posters restrictions, and refrained from offering my opinion on that thread. But, that is absurd. We all know why people go OTD, and it is closer to rhyming with shmarents than shmoffee room.
That criticized, I like to think that I approach the CR with an open mind, and offer honest and sincere opinions. I think most of the posters do similarly. We can all work on it, but I think this post is mostly incorrect.November 11, 2010 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1010258
We all know why people go OTD
Of course we do. It is closest to rhyming with shmelf, though.November 11, 2010 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1010259popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You really think so?
I suppose it doesn’t matter what you think, or what I think.November 12, 2010 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1010260aries2756Participant
1987, I’m with you and I’ve said it before as well. It is one thing when you ask a question looking for assistance. It is a whole other ball game when you start a thread looking to stir up controversy by judging what other people do.November 12, 2010 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1010261
If it doesn’t matter what I think, what else in the world does matter?
But I do agree that it doesn’t matter what you think, unless you are agreeing with me 😉July 25, 2013 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1010262iBump 2.0Participant
well THIS is still nogayah..
(intersesting that even back then popa’s opinion was so highly regarded… *snort* )
🙂 Bump 🙂July 25, 2013 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1010263jewishfeminist02Member
People go off the derech for all kinds of reasons. Read the threads about OTD with the heartbroken parents’ cries and then try to say it is their fault their child made that decision. I know families that did everything right and they still had a child go OTD. It is so difficult for them already. There is no need to make it more painful by pointing the finger at them.April 1, 2014 4:33 am at 4:33 am #1010264☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
A shtickle raya to popa:
?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??????April 1, 2014 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1010266ChortkovParticipant
For one guy, the right thing is for him to be in kollel, and for another guy, the right thing for him is to get a job. Some fathers would come into the women’s section to dance, some fathers certaintly wont. Everyone can do what they deem is right, and let everyone else do what they want.
I’m sorry, but I do not agree with your approach. Life is not about ‘do what you like’ and ‘live and let live’. There is definitely a RIGHT and a WRONG, and nothing in between. Everything in life – absolutely everything – is either ???? ?’ or the opposite. There can be different shittas about whether something is right or wrong, but nothing is neither RIGHT nor WRONG. If one feels something is wrong, there is a ???? to be ????? the wrongdoer.
Of course, it is true that some people should be going to kollel and others do not have to – somebody who has no ????? and is part of the “???” of R’ Shimon bar Yochai/R’ Yishmoel – of course is not ????? to sit and learn, but should be ????? to earn for his family. Somebody who has hit the millions, and can afford to live comfortably and still learn all day is ?????? to invest his energies into ????? ?. There is no different ‘approaches’ about life; different people are given different oppurtunities by HKB”H. It most definitely is NOT a free for all, do what you like.
when posters “knock” someone else’s point of view, this only leads to sinas chinam and chillul Hashem.
This is a good point. Even if the first thing you said is not necessarily correct, and there is something wrong, there is no reason to be nasty about it. One can disagree firmly yet politely. There is no reason to turn personal when disagreeing about something.
However, there is also the other side of the coin – readers should understand that discussions get heated, and things that are not meant are said. [Normal, sane, frum] People do not mean to get personal, but sometimes in the heat of action things slip out. Readers should not be insulted, but should take things with a pinch of salt.
Also, a lot of posters here apparently have not much of a sense of humour, and cannot tell when a poster who on face value seems to be saying something ridiculously insulting and unreasonable, but is really just trying to be funny by writing something cynical or something so obviously controversial they are probably being funny (Poppa ?????) – some people have to learn not to take everything seeriously.April 1, 2014 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1010267
Well, you know 3 years ago squeak claimed to be Joseph, right?April 1, 2014 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1010268besalelParticipant
yekke: there are some who believe that everyone in the world should be learning and not working. you think they are wrong but you need to be considerate and tolerant of this view even if you disagree and think its wrong. similarly, rav yoel believed that the state of israel is a frustration of gods will. i may think that the dass torah which disagrees is right and that rav yoel is wrong but how can i disagree with rav yoel? i cant. i need to be tolerant of this view even if i disagree and not only that but love the jews who subscribe to this view.
i need to accept that there are beliefs i accept as true but i can’t foreclose the possibility that i am wrong and they are right. in other words, i believe in what i do but i cant say there is no other way.
there is right and wrong but you shouldnt be so sure of your rightness that you become intolerant of a view you think is wrong.
the only positions that i am intolerant of are those which justify evil and are therefore a chillul hashem. a position that its permitted to steal or kill or injure, for example.
we should be able to debate our viewpoints without being intolerant of another’s. the key is to love every jew and treat every person with respect. disagreements have always been part of the jewish dialogue. there is no reason to frustrate disagreements but there is no reason to be intolerant either.April 1, 2014 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1010269golferParticipant
DY, I never took that to be a proof for what you’re saying. I understood it more to mean the things little kids (-yenuka-) talk about and the way they express themselves. Not the life choices they make when they get older. I would tend to agree more with what jewishfem wrote. Kids are influenced by parents, yeshiva / school, friends, the media, society at large, and have their own inclinations to deal with each. I’ve never been one for parent bashing or yeshiva bashing.
Do people out there in the CR really think the OTD problems we’re having come from parents?April 1, 2014 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1010270HaLeiViParticipant
Golfer, the Gemara is talking about a married woman. However, it should be noted that we didn’t blame the family for the fact that Miriam Bas Bilga Shmad and married out. It was her way of describing the function of the Mizbei’ach that told us she must have heard related talk in her father’s house. When people go off the Derech, they often have fond memories of things that they were fond of back in the day.April 1, 2014 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1010272ChortkovParticipant
yekke: there are some who believe that everyone in the world should be learning and not working. you think they are wrong but you need to be considerate and tolerant of this view even if you disagree and think its wrong.
There is nobody who says that somebody who has no bread to put on the table should still learn except for R’ Shimon Bar Yochai, about whom the gemoro says that “rov” of us are not on the Madreiga to follow. Anybody who can learn is absolutely ?????? to.
I don’t think ‘tolerant’ is the right term. Something which is wrong is wrong, and there is no such thing as accepting wrong shittas. You are correct – as I pointed out before – that a poster being wrong does not give an allowance to another poster to be aggressive, antagonistic or rude, nor for it to develop into a personal feud. But it does give one an allowance – definitely on a blog like this – for one to state his own opinion and perhaps to debate it. In ‘real life’, often it is more prudent to keep one’s opinion to oneself, for it could be counterproductive to offer one’s own opinion of things. But on a blog like this, where posts are put on simply so that other people should see them, it is only right to point out if something is wrong. Again, in a polite and torahdike fashion, of course.April 1, 2014 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1010273golferParticipant
Thank you HaLeiVi.
Nothing like learning something inside from the source.
But that was a different thread.
Back to this one, that certainly puts a different perspective on things.
I still have a hard time with the thought of OTD problems resulting from bad parenting. But I may be wrong.April 1, 2014 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1010274☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Golfer, I said it’s a shtickle raya because although the Gemara does blame some part of her bad behavior on her parents, that doesn’t mean it’s the only factor.
So, no, when I see l”a a child who’s OTD, I don’t automatically place full blame on the parents, but as a parent myself, I can learn how important my job as a role model is.April 1, 2014 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1010275HaLeiViParticipant
In case I didn’t explain myself well enough here goes. Although a person’s choice is in his own hands and we won’t necessarily point to his parents as the reason for his choices, there are still things within his behavior that we can trace back to his upbringing. When people go OTD and reflect back on their life they will describe some positive experiences along with the negative ones, to which they might attribute their general negative outlook on Judaism.
This Miriam Bas Bilga, who kicked the Mizbei’ach when she came there with her husband (a Greek sergeant) during the pillage of the Mikdash, referred to the Mizbei’ach as a wolf swallowing the money of the Jews. Even if she went off this would not have been her outlook. Why would it cross the mind of a former Jew to hate the Mizbei’ach? This is why the Rabbis concluded that there was obviously somewhat of a negative attitude that she picked up in her father’s house. As religious Jews, they obviously didn’t call the Mizbei’ach a wolf, but they might have been theorizing how they can save money from being wasted. Such as, “It’s a Shud to always bring a cow, they could bring a small sheep; there’s no Chiyuv to bring that many; if they work one minute slower they can save 25 Kikkar a year.”April 2, 2014 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1010276
There is definitely right and wrong. Right is me. Wrong is anything else.April 2, 2014 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1010277Bookworm120Participant
This is for when nfg03 sees this:
This thread title also reminds me of another old song…. 😛April 2, 2014 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1010278oyyoyyoyParticipant
shmarents def have a big chailek but its possible there were other issues the OTD kid had instead. im not so involved with these kids but in my limited experience nobody really goes off the derech cause of shittos nowadays. its usually something more psychological.April 2, 2014 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1010279
I’m right. There is no reason I should agree with you. You’re wrong and I’m right.
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