November 23, 2014 11:18 am at 11:18 am #614320
Since some people presumably don’t want to listen to music that is influenced by non-Jewish music, do Jewish musicians have to make it clear when this is the case, and is it right for someone else to if they don’t themselves?
Suppose there is a Jewish writer/singer who is a fan of non-Jewish music, and it presumably influences their own music. However, the Jewish public is unaware of this. Would it be wrong to tell people?
Should I ask a Rav about this?
(PLEASE don’t turn this into a “non-Jewish music – right/wrong?” thread.)November 23, 2014 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1044834
There is no such thing as Jewish music that is not influenced by Non Jewish music. It does not exist and everyone knows this. Where do these people that don’t know this think Jewish music comes from?? Do they think it was passed down from Har Sinai?November 23, 2014 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1044835
Sigh. Well, if you insist, 000646… 🙂
The first two instances of the phrase “non-Jewish music” in my first post should be read as “contemporary non-Jewish popular music.”November 23, 2014 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1044836
646, rap music is no less Jewish than the tune for Shalom Aleichem?November 23, 2014 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1044837
The difference is that today’s popular Jewish music is derived from very unrefined secular music.November 23, 2014 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1044838
Objectively speaking no it’s not. In fact the people from whom tunes such as the one we use for Shalom Aleichem were taken from were probably a whole lot worse then those that perform “non Jewish” songs these days. Those tunes were sung by people who probably thought killing Jews was just about the best thing someone could do. I happen to think Rap style music is horrible, but that’s my taste I won’t start saying that things I don’t like are “damaging to people’s souls” or whatever.
“Refined” according to who? Jazz was considered “unrefined” 70 years ago as well.November 23, 2014 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1044839
Music written by Jews is Jewish music. The only authentic holy Jewish music (of which I am aware) is that of the Leviim in the Beis Hamikdash. Everything else comes from anywhere that Jews have lived or travelled, or listen to in their surroundings. We cannot HELP but be influenced (the Maoz Tzur we sing, for example). To negate the coming together of musical notes, because it might have a non-Jewish origin, makes no sense to me (unless it is IMO really awful music, like certain types of heavy metal or jazz, which I personally do not much like), because we are continuously influenced by the world around us. And that is not necessarily a bad thing, musically.
When I first heard the Moditzer album, as a young(er) person, my first thought was that it reminded me of ANY march I had ever heard, though personally it was more melodious to me BECAUSE IT WAS MODITZ. It is the meaning behind the music that makes it worthwile. When I hum a “Jewish” tune that might have been secularly-based, I am not thinking, “WOW, what a great secular song!” I am thinking of how this song resonates with me, and that brings me closer to Hashem, especially if the lyrics are from Tehillim.
People can think and believe whatever they are comfortable in thinking, but for me, there is only MUSIC, neither Jewish nor non-Jewish. It is how we take the music and elevate it to a level of Kedusha, that makes all the difference. Just my very humble opinion.November 23, 2014 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1044840
What do you base that on other then your distaste for it (something I happen to share with you)November 23, 2014 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1044841
Ashkenazi music is for the most part Eastern European music (Polish, Ukrainian etc) those societies loved killing Jews perhaps more then any other in Jewish history.November 23, 2014 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1044842
Why do you think that the tune fir shalom Aleichem ( not sure which one you mean though) comes from people who were killing Jews? There are definitely some real jewish songs for example skulen and Lubavitch .November 23, 2014 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1044843
000646, I don’t think musical taste is merely a matter of personal preference (although there’s certainly much of that involved).
Maybe you think rap is simply not to your taste, but I think it’s designed to appeal to the nefesh habehami.November 23, 2014 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1044844
The famous tune for Shalom Aleichem was composed by Israel Goldfarb, a conservative rabbi, in the early 1900’s.November 23, 2014 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1044845
000646, I base it on conversations with experts in music, I base it on conversations with experts on the neshamah, I base it in how I know certain types of music, including rap, make me feel, and I base it on how I have seen people act when involved in such music.November 23, 2014 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1044846
Doesn’t make a difference who actually wrote the song any more then it makes a difference if a “Rap” song was written by a Jewish person. In fact what we are talking about certain style songs written by Jews, and if that is/should be a problem.
The things you base it on are all subjective. The same music and neshama “experts” who today say that Rap and rock music is “Vulgar” said the same thing about Jazz (and anything other then classical music for that matter) in the early 1900s.November 23, 2014 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1044847
I agree that the issue is not who wrote a song, it’s what emotions the song evokes. Hopefully, that’s more likely to be positive if written by a frum Jew, but it’s certainly not always the case.
You don’t know which experts I spoke to, so you can hardly do more than guess what they think of other forms of music.November 23, 2014 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1044848
The consensus among European music and religious experts in the early 1900s was that just about any form of music other then Classical or European folk style songs were Vulgar. Times changed as did people’s ideas and tastes, these things will continue to change and there will always be the “experts” that say that the new styles that they aren’t used to are “vulgar” or “unrefined”.November 23, 2014 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1044849
Experts-schmexperts, so long as we are healthy! 🙂November 23, 2014 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1044850
In the hakdama to peas hashulchan, one of the talmidei hagra tells a story about the gra, at one point he says about “how many songs Moshe Rabeinu rwveived at har sinai”
Will find the exact quote for you later. I cant really use hebrew books (on a cellphone, and its much more difficult on this) so I’ll just write it outNovember 23, 2014 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1044851
ReceivedNovember 23, 2014 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1044852
“There is no such thing as Jewish music that is not influenced by Non Jewish music.”
Arnold Schoenberg’s 12 tone atonal music does not have any obvious influence from any non-Jewish source, although it should be noted that Schoenberg himself claimed that he was following in the tradition of Johannes Brahms, n irreligious non-Jew.
I challenge any chazan to use Schoenberg’s style in tefillah. Schoenberg himself composed a setting of Kol Nidre but it is a tonal work.November 23, 2014 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1044853
and this is another reason y i listen to not jewish musicNovember 23, 2014 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1044854
” when the Gra finished his perush on shir hashirim. He was very happy and mesamayach in the simchas hatorah. He spoke about the chochmas hanegina, and about how without chochmas hanegina one cannot understand the sodos hatora and the taamei torah and the tikkunei zohar. Hebsaid there can be music pleasant enough to kill, and pleasant enough to raise the dead. He spoke about how many niggubim Moshe received at har sinai”November 23, 2014 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1044855
If you listen to nonjewish music, you definitely do not belong in sems like Bnos Sarah/Chava!!! Please apply to other sems… You really have to discuss this with someone that knows you very well and knows seminaries.November 23, 2014 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1044856
I am not so familiar with creating music, but except for the Schomberg scale, there are only a finite number of combinations on the regular scale and its impossible to create a new combination as its already been done, thats one reason why you might see sampling either deliberate or many times just coincidentalNovember 23, 2014 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1044857
latekein girl – i think its much better for me to b perfect at tznius which is required by the torah and daven a lot rather than not listen to not jewish music which is not required by the torah and also im sure that those seminaries have girls like me their:)November 23, 2014 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1044858
I’m 99% sure that BJJ and Bnos Sarah/Chava don’t accept girls that listen to nonjewish music.
Maybe BJJ does, on second thought. I’ve heard that they focus more on intelligence than hashkafa when accepting girls. But def not Bnos S or C!
As for your point that being dressed b’tznius is more important than not listening to nonjewish music, I agree with you on that! But my question is- why not dress b’tznius AND stay away from nonjewish music?
Actually, that’s none of my business. Just something for you to think about. My point is that sems like BJJ and Bnos C or S are not looking for girls that listen to nonjewish music. They are looking for very yeshivish girls that are as sheltered and pure as possible. They want typical Bais Yaakpv girls that are considered top girls.
There is nothing wrong with you. You just wouldn’t do well in those sems, and I highly doubt that you’d get accepted, barring an absolute nes.November 23, 2014 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1044859
lol the only reason y they would accept me is bc im going thru the sem im already in and im sure that the rebbitzions that run my school would b more than happy to recommend me for their sems:) and if i dont get into those sems than theirs no reason for me to go at all when i can stay here and continue going to 2nd yr sems here:) and continue on w college:) the only reason y im going is for academics and for shidduchim:) so basically if its not a bjj type of sem im not going sorry i dont have time for that stuffNovember 24, 2014 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1044860
you realy think noone in bnos chava listens to goyish music?November 24, 2014 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1044862
You’re probably right, come to think of it…November 24, 2014 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1044863
yes i do:) i think that they hide it thoNovember 24, 2014 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1044864
I’m assuming you didn’t realize that you just said hat you think that Bnos Chava girls don’t listen to nonjewish music, and followed that statement with your assumption that they hide it (the fact that they don’t listen to nonjewish music.)November 24, 2014 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1044865
yes i do believe that a lot of people try hiding the fact that they listen to not jewish music. i meant that most girls from bnos chava dont listen to not jewish music not all!! sorry about that mistakeNovember 25, 2014 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1044866
“except for the Schomberg scale, there are only a finite number of combinations on the regular scale “
Even the Schoenberg method has a finite number of combinations — about 9 trillion.November 25, 2014 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1044867
A very specific way to test what is Yiddish and what is not is to stand back and watch. As I posted back then,
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/anyone-else-worried-about-todays-frum-music/page/2#post-111785. I tried this with a three year old who had no exposure to how people react to certain types of music. As soon as disco music came on she would act silly and wild. The message of the music is clear.
Ignorance might be bliss, but it’s not not brilliance.
And as I wrote above that one, you can draw the parallel between music and clothing. If you can agree that there is something called dressing like a Yid, then you can understand what Jewish music means.November 25, 2014 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1044868
haleivi – im shocked that u would test such a thing on a 3 yr old i would never let my 3 yr old listen to not jewish music so what ur saying is that tznius is not required by the torah since listening to not jewish music is not an avaireh and ur comparing it to that? i think that u should talk to ur rav b4 u talk to me about this since u obviously dont kw anything about the mitzvos sorry tznius is required by the torah while listening to not jewish music is not an averiahNovember 25, 2014 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1044869
You wouldn’t let a three year old listen to a minute of music that you spend hours listening to?
HaLeiVi, excellent point.November 25, 2014 1:56 am at 1:56 am #1044870
Listening to non jewish music might equally be an aveira . Since you’re sending everyone to their rav, did you ask a rav if you may listen to non jewish music?November 25, 2014 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1044871
Who mentioned tznius in the first place?November 25, 2014 2:12 am at 2:12 am #1044872
+1 ivoryNovember 25, 2014 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1044873
Actually, it was mainstream “Jewish music.”November 25, 2014 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1044874
i do plan on letting them listen it when their like 10 but not before that since i want them to be as much sheltered before that and also since i do plan on marrying a kollel husband he may say no completely and since i will obviously respect his values i wont let them listen at all…. so ill decide then with my husband:) i was comparing it to that saying that tznius is actually required by the torah while not jewish music is not in the torahNovember 25, 2014 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1044875
You’re still not making sense:)November 25, 2014 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1044876
I don’t really understand how tznius fell in here. But why do you say that non jewish music is not in the Torah? Did you ask a rav? Just like once upon a time tznius was not a subject because it was self understood, n maybe listening to goyish music is in the same level but isn’t being taught YET because its self understood to anyone with jewish sensitivities they goyish music is GOYISH. I’m not talking about old fashioned classical musicNovember 25, 2014 3:47 am at 3:47 am #1044877
whatever i dont think anyone will be able to change my mind about listening to not jewish music im WAY too use to it ive been listening to it for over 2 years and never planned on stopping so its kind of late…. and i started listening to it when i almost went otd and after that i just said its normal to listen to it and so i never considered stopping even tho before that i was super anti itNovember 25, 2014 4:32 am at 4:32 am #1044878
For those that make a beracha on music, is non-jewish music included?November 25, 2014 4:40 am at 4:40 am #1044879
Do they also make a Brocha on sitting in the shade?November 25, 2014 4:45 am at 4:45 am #1044880
o haha nopeNovember 25, 2014 4:48 am at 4:48 am #1044881
Yes, but only on Jewish shade.November 25, 2014 4:54 am at 4:54 am #1044882
But the Benei Yisaschar specifically mentions music and doesn’t specifically mention shade, although he does say “??????”.November 25, 2014 5:32 am at 5:32 am #1044883
Where does he discuss it? I have a problem with that. Doesn’t the Gemara spell out that only smell is something that the Neshama enjoys? There is no bodily enjoyment of music. Furthermore, all Birchos Hane’enin are only when we consume something. When there would be no Me’ila there is no problem of ???? ????? ??? ??? ????.
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