i just saw this elsewhere here:
“bagels are hamotzi according to everyone because they are baked after being boiled.”
assuming (and not discussing)that it is assur to dip challah into hot soup on Shabbos, whatever circumstances you hold it takes to make it assur,
would bagels be mutar under the same circumstances?
the issue with challsh being that although there is no bishul acher bishul, there is bishul after baking (an improvement)
but bagels are already mvushal, challah is not.
but they are baked after boiling, does this negate the boiling?
Bagels are not fully cooked after boiling; the baking “completes” the bagel. Just go to your neighborhood bagel shop and ask for a boiled bagel, before it has been baked.
Bagels are not boiled long enough to actually cook them through – it’s probably not even the minimum shiur of being done a third of the way. Because of that, it would probably not be allowed.
In any case, if you use a tureen to serve the soup, it’s a non-issue, because the bowl is either a kli shlishi or revi’i (depending on the status of the ladle).
thanks tele and feif
i just found this browsing online:
Bagels are made by first boiling them in water and then baking them. One might think that since they are boiled they should be subject to the rules of Bishul Akum. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 2:33), however, writes that since the boiling does not render the bagels even minimally edible, the bagels are not considered to have been cooked.
work backwards, according to rav moshe z”tl why is it hamotzi?
ps i’m of the opinion ALL bread, rolls, bagels are hamotzi
i thought i would start a new tradition in my home of bagels instead of challah, but i guess not
I must have missed something, as bagels are only eaten on moztoi shabbos, so whats the problem with the hot soup? (sorry, I had nothing else to contribute, and this struck me as witty)
feif-un (Poster #3) has it right. By the time the soup reaches the plate, it is a “Kli shlishi” (Third vessel) and Challah being dipped is a non-issue. Let’s not look for more Chumros that have no basis in Halacha. The end result of these unnecessary and not thought through stringencies is that life becomes unbearable and some people will drop truly important parts of Religious observance that are integral to Halacha.
this thread is specifically to exlude a Halachic discussion of the permissibility of dipping Challah in soup (see original post)
it is not a matter of chumras
feif un referred to using a tureen
without a tureen the issue is not clear cut and heavily depends on the way the ladle of the kli rishon is used
in my home the soup bowl is a kli sheni as the ladle is kept in the kli rishon and temporarily removed to pour the soup