May 14, 2012 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #874382
AviK: The Chazon Ish never said that or anything remotely like that. How do you know there are “many” in Yeshiva that are not learning? You don’t know that and have zero evidence of that. You just made that up due to your antagonism against Torah study.May 14, 2012 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #874383
Ymb, stop with the lunacy!!! If they lived in US or Poland, or Russia, and there were a draft, you would also tell the government to go jump in the lake? Are you out of your mind?
IF not for the Israeli government funding, most of those kollel people would have to go and get a job! Usually, most frum Jews had to work — both in golus and before.
Stop with your Brisker fantasies!May 14, 2012 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #874384
Ymb, they do not owe anything to the state of Israel?!? What about all the money for the yeshivos? What a disgrace! What a chillul HaShem!May 14, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #874385
ymb- (shmoel or josef under a diffent name ?) First, get your history right. Many nazis were caught and executed by the allies and many more were sent to prison. Becher lived and who knows, maybe he too , had a hand in saving jews. I was not there- neither were you-and so, you should refrain from issuing any definite condemnations or opinions. BTW- Eichmann was a special symbol and this why Israel mae every effort to catch him.
As far as Israel goes- you are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your facts.Eretz Yisroel was always a magnet to jews who wanted to live in Eretz Yisroel and make ‘alyah”- yes- this is what R’Jehuda halevi, The Bartenura, the Ari ,the Bias josef , and so many others did-they made alyah to live in eretz Yisroel.
It is ‘min hashomaim” that there was a movement in the late nineteenth century to establish jewish sovereignity over eretz yisroel-that movement was actually called “chovevei tsion” -a fully orthodox movement and it became the zionist movement.I believe-unlike you- that EVERYTHING is “min hashomaim”- including the zionist movement. If the orthodox jews would have embraced zionism and made it their own- we would now have a really jewish medinah. Unfortunately- it didn’t happen and we are now faced with governments that are secular. BUT- we are the owners of Eretz Yisroel and we should act accordingly- and protect it -and our brothers and sisters- by doing everything we can to support the defenders of the so-called “evil’ medinah. it is only evil in your eyes- in our eyes, it is the embodiment of the age old promise of HKBH to return us to our homeland. So, you can exclude yourself from the medinah, you can have your opinions but you cannot have your facts. The facts are that over six million jews live there, Torah is thriving and all of this is possible because HKBH gave us the means to defend ourselves- the army. Live with it.May 14, 2012 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #874386May 14, 2012 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #874387
mdd: Every civilized nation has an exemption for religious students. Including the U.S. and Europe. Obviously the State of Israel is not a civilized nation.May 14, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #874388
avhaben- as most of your acolytes, you distort the facts. First, there is no specific exemption for RELIGIOUS students anywhere- it is a general exemption for students of all kind and it is only for a relative amount of time. No one begrudges yeshivos or kollelim , the grudge is because it is unlimited, it applies for every Tom, Dick and Harry,and we pay for it !!
NEVER in our history has there been a blanket exemption to anyone and- contrary to derszoger- never was such a financial burden put upon the tsibbur . if you want, keep the ten batlonim and this is the one thing that we can live with.May 14, 2012 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #874389
avhaben: The dangers faced and the numbers involved mean that isn’t even remotely a valid comparison.May 14, 2012 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #874390
Quakers, Amish and other pacifists also have the right to not serve in the Army in civilized countries. Is Israel civilized that it’ll exempt pacifist from fighting in its wars? Because Chareidim are pacifists.May 14, 2012 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #874391zahavasdadParticipant
mdd: Every civilized nation has an exemption for religious students. Including the U.S. and Europe. Obviously the State of Israel is not a civilized nation
The exemption is not Indeifinately and its not as big a percentageMay 14, 2012 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #874392
Ders: Your use of the Rambam to justify learning in Kollel is comical on its face. You should learn what the Rambam says about Kollel first.May 14, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #874393
100% of the Amish and Quakers and other pacifists do not fight at times of war. Nor join the Armed Forces in times of peace.May 14, 2012 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #874395
avhaben: Who cares what the goyim do? Eretz Yisrael is Eretz Yisrael and pikuach nefesh demands that Yidden (and Torah study) are protected by an army.May 14, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #874396
Avhaben: Are you saying that Judaism is a pacifist religion? Because that’s just not true.May 14, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #874397
Breslever: Right, who cares what the goyim do. Any Jew who wants to learn Torah instead of Army should be allowed. Torah is more important and provides more protection. Like you said, who cares what the goyim do. And every Israeli should be required to spend 2 years fulltime in a Yeshiva.May 14, 2012 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #874398
Derszoger, abhaven, Josephs, look in Shulchan Aruch O,Ch. 156. Learning full- time is only when and if possible. There is no chiyuv, guarantee or promise that always, everybody will be able to just sit and learn forever. In Europe, everybody was in kollel? Stop with your propaganda!
Plus, no country would allow such massive exemptions (especially, after annoying the majority of the country so many times, as the Chareidim have done).May 14, 2012 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #874399
Frankly, I am tired of the ENTIRE security burden falling squarely on the shoulders of ONLY the frum, while the chilonim don’t chip in the least. Why is that? Why? Why is the real security protecting Eretz Yisroel — Limud Torah — ALL being done by the frum while the chilonim deadbeats get away with zilch in limud Torah — the real security.
Until the chiloni deadbeats commit to at least a minimal commitment to intensive fulltime Torah study in Yeshiva for a few years, mandatory for every Israeli citizen, let them all keep quiet about army or national service. No mandatory army service until there is mandatory Torah service for all — the real security.May 14, 2012 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #874400
rabbiofberlin: “NEVER in our history has there been a blanket exemption to anyone and- never was such a financial burden put upon the tsibbur . if you want, keep the ten batlonim and this is the one thing that we can live with.”
There are two issues here:
1)Serving in the army 2)Staying in kollel and being a so called “financial burden” on the general public.
I personally know many many chareidim in EY that work off the books in order to avoid the army. Many chareidim have jobs, some part-time, some full time. Some have cash businesses. These people are registered in kollel not to avoid taxes but to avoid the army. If it was legal to work without joining the army they would work openly. If anyone thinks it’s possible to just live off the kollel paychecks in E.Y. -They are in dreamland. Almost everyone I know [who is in kollel fulltime also has some form of other income, some more some less. [Many people sell different things from home. or do many other small things on the side, bein hasedarim or wife works etc.]The goverment “support” is a big joke. No one “lives” just on that. Purely Delusional.
So the issue of “Financial burden” can be easily be solved by allowing people to work legally even without serving in the army. [Just like the Arabs.]
I havent heard any calls to force all the Israeli Arabs [those that hold Israeli citizenship]in the army. Why? Because the secular know that the arabs would be disloyal soldiers, but they believe they could make [force] the Chareidim into seeing the “light” just like they shmad [forced] the Yeminites to become irreligious in the 1950’s.
Regarding serving in the army, many Chareidim believe it’s against Halacha [Their Rabbonim are against it.] Or they believe the army doesn’t/would’nt accomadate their religious needs, [as the army has proven many times.] The army doesn’t need [or really want] the Chareidim. The only ones that want the Chareidim in the army are the secular masses that feel “it’s unfair” So first the army should show [prove]they respect religion, [with the rulings of the chareidi Rabbonim of what is or isn’t allowed]then the working chareidim could begin discussing the army…May 14, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #874401pcozMember
The chareidim should agree to go to the army for 3 years al tnai that the chilonim in the army agree to learn in yeshiva for a commensurate amount of timeMay 14, 2012 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #874402
zichmich- you probably don’t know that but your solution ids one of the proposed ones- namely to allow everyone to work LEGALLY but not spend any more money from the national treasury on the kollels. Do you know who opposes this? THE ROSHEI YESHIVA !! Because they know that, if given the opportunity, masses of so-called kollel jungeleit would leave the kollelim, thereby deprivig the roshei yesihva and their many hangers-on of jobs. That is the dirty little secret- the roshei yeshiva don’t want the people participating in normal life because it takes awy their power and their patronage.
The chassidische rebbes- by contrast- are desperate to come to an accomodation with the government- becasue they realize that it is impossible to continue with the status quo. I well remember what happened in the late fifties when the Vishnitzer rebbe zt’l opened up the first chareidi “hesder” yeshiva- he was pilloried by the roshei yeshiva because he dared- dared!- to give the young people an opportunity to ahve a normal life.He was cowed in withdrawing it. what a disgraceful way to treat one of the greatest chassdishce rebbes.
As far as your statement-that servinf in the army is against halacha- excuse me??? do you have any real source for this?May 14, 2012 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #874403
Sam2: I am saying Chareidim are conscientious objectors in the holy land. It is an exemptable cause in all civilized countries. In the US, under US Code of Federal Regulations Title 32, Chapter XVI, Sec. 1630.2, the Selective Service exempts conscientious objectors under Category Class 1-O.
And mdd and rob, yes, civilized countries DO exempt religious students specifically. In the US that exemption would be Selective Service Category Class 2-D for a religious student and Class 4-D for a someone working in a religious capacity.
So you have multiple seperate good reasons for an across the board exemption for Chareidim. Much as the Amish and Quakers, virtually across the board, do not serve in the armed forces even during a time of draft and active war.May 15, 2012 2:24 am at 2:24 am #874404
Avhaben, enough is enough. No country would allow so many exemptions! No country would allow so many people to be in kollel on the taxpayers money and not serve in the army. It is the inconvinient truth.
Zichmich, you have to worry about how things look to outsiders. It is called avoiding chilul HaShem.May 15, 2012 2:40 am at 2:40 am #874405
Avhaben: You make a good point, but the Israeli government could say back that they know Halachah as well and that the “conscientious objector” status is just made up as a form of protest against the government, because they know that Judaism believes in fighting a war when necessary.May 15, 2012 2:41 am at 2:41 am #874406
So many? Stop kidding us, mdd. Chareidim who take an exemption are a small portion of the national total of draft-eligible Israelis. Is the Israeli Army currently falling apart due to a lack of Chareidi inductees? Is the Israeli Army losing wars due to a lack of Chareidi fighters? Nope and nope. They are doing just fine without us. The only reason for the current noise by the chilonim is due to their rabid Torah-hating anger and hatred of anyone with a yarmulka.
Where is the demand that Arab Israeli citizens serve in the Army? Where?May 15, 2012 2:46 am at 2:46 am #874407
First off last I check in virtually every War that Isreal has won all admitted that it was not the result of “military superiority” rather it was a “miracle” (Moshe Dayans visit to the Kosel after the Six Day war used to be taught in Israeli schools) the zhus of Torah learning is what many Gedolei Yisroel say is what allows such miracles to take place.
Also I find it interesting that rate of “Draft Dodging” by the secular liberal elite in Isreal causes statistaclly more secular youth not to serve then yeshiva bochrim.
Why is there not a call to eliminate such draaft dodging by the teens of Tel Aviv?
And yes the Army lately has gone out of there way to show the Chareidi public that they have nothing to fear from allowing their sons into the Army.
I mean if any chareidi does not wish to be compelled to listen to Kol Isha for example his commander will happily comply.May 15, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #874408
Joining the Israeli Army is the quickest ticket to becoming frei. Its reputation is one of a den of immorality.May 15, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #874409
Ben Levi, there is no blanket ptur for all young people of Tel Aviv. You, the Joseph chevra, just have to defend the Chareidi position no matter what, even if they declared that London is the capital of Spain.May 15, 2012 3:03 am at 3:03 am #874410
Come on mdd, You cant come up with anything better then that?May 15, 2012 3:04 am at 3:04 am #874411
rabbiofberlin: “zichmich- you probably don’t know that but your solution ids one of the proposed ones- namely to allow everyone to work LEGALLY but not spend any more money from the national treasury on the kollels. Do you know who opposes this? THE ROSHEI YESHIVA !! “
1]Which Roshei Yeshiva??? Please name some big names in the yeshiva world.
rabbiofberlin: “The chassidische rebbes- by contrast- are desperate to come to an accomodation with the government- becasue they realize that it is impossible to continue with the status quo.”
I am unaware of any chassidicher Rebbe that believes one should serve in the army. They only hold that their chassidim who aren’t going to sit in Kollel should work for a living. According to you, the chassidim who are repesented in the knesset by the Agudas Yisrael party shoud work with the goverment to find a solution, not oppose the committee or refuse to cooperate with them. [Litzman -Deputy Minister of Health (Agudas Yisrael)is a Ger Chassid and as was seen in the Yerushalayim elections for Mayor, Ger doesn’t give a hoot to what the Litvishe [or even other] chassidicher Gedolim say.]So even when they oppose breaking the status Quo, then that means the chassidicher Gedolim agree with the litvishe on this one.
rabbiofberlin: “As far as your statement-that serving in the army is against halacha- excuse me??? do you have any real source for this?”
According to many Chareidi Gedolim [even besides Satmar, Brisk, Toldos Aaron] held tthat one should’nt use force to take EY from the Goyim. Besides for the fact that it’s challenging to keep many mitzvos in the army properly. [As was reported, the IDF is lax in shmiras shabbos [example: they sometimes consider evicting Jews from settlements or Hilltops “pikuach nefesh”] They arew lax in kashrus, letting soldiers daven, lax in “Giluy Arayos” -and related laws, etc. Now the Dati Leumi Jews are perfectly allowed to follow their Rabbis view that none of the above is anything against halacha. But we Chareidim have OUR Rabbis who WE follow and their view of what the Torah allows or not is OUR Law. So if the IDF wants US Chareidim to join, they can and should make some accomadations for us. [Instead of being haughty and arrogant insisting we chareidim should follow their “Daas Torah”] Also don’t suggest Nachal is the solution for 20,000+ Chareidim -that’s a joke.
May 15, 2012 3:45 am at 3:45 am #874412
Sam: Are you kidding? They’d deny it by claiming halacha? Then they’d have to first get rid of all the treifos. Halacha. And no more kol isha. Yup. Forget about integrated gender combat. And closing all the buses in every city in Israel (Tel Aviv included) on Shabbos. They’d far sooner ban Chareidim from trying to join the military than start complying with halacha.May 15, 2012 3:46 am at 3:46 am #874413
Ben Levi, my point is that how much can you ignore the government and the opinion of the majority of the population of the country you live in? No other country would agrre to such a matzav. The Israeli Chareidim could try coming to the US, but many will have to go and get a job here (which is the end of the world as far as they go).May 15, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #874414
Avhaben: You missed the point of my post. I didn’t say that Israel would start following Halachah (Hal’vai). But that the government can say that they know that Halachah doesn’t mandate not fighting in the army.May 15, 2012 4:17 am at 4:17 am #874415
Sam: That’s a losing argument. If they made that argument they’d have to FULLY AND COMPLETELY accomodate ALL the halachic requirements of their conscripts. No kol isha. Davening b’zmano. 100% kashrus. No shomer negia violations. Sure. They’d far sooner badnChareidim from the army before they’d accomodate them like that. Secondly, we could still argue joining is against halacha on various grounds. Sakanas nefoshos violates halacha. Working on Shabbos is against halacha. And 1000 other things.
Concientous objections is a 100% legitimate claim. And one recognized by civilized militaries around the world. Hence the Amish, Quakers and others. Even atheists can claim concientous objections.May 15, 2012 5:00 am at 5:00 am #874416Avi KParticipant
Zichmich, you are the one who is haughty and arogant. An army cannot have a different pesak for each Jewish soldier. Their is an Army Rabbinate and they have the status of mara d’atra. Unless someone is (really) learning, disabled, etc.he has an absolute Tora obligation to serve. This is halacha pesuka.And FYI, in the War of Independence Chassidim served in droves and there is a famous photo a Chassidim aiming weapons. Later because of pressure they took deferments (the Vizhnitzer rebbe said so in so many words).May 15, 2012 6:45 am at 6:45 am #874417
Well, the Jews have been ignoring the
majority” in every culture theyve been in since going into Golus.
I mean those who remained “jews” that is.
Fact is that the real reason that seculars are pressuring “chareidim” to join the army is becuase they thought that they could “get” them without it.
Now they see that as long as the “chareidim” stay in the Yeshivos without joing the “melting pot” of Isreali society which is the Army the chareidim remain “A Nation Apart”.
Now the fact that the chareidim were ” a nation apart” did not truly bother the seculars till recent years when the utter destruction of the entirety of secular society has become fighteningly apparent while chareidi society continues to grow kein yirbu.
As such this is no longer tolerable and chareidi parents must be pressured to allow their children to join with the reset of Israeli culture and follow them to the drug dens of India and Thailand afterwards so at least everyone will fail equally.May 15, 2012 9:50 am at 9:50 am #874418
mdd:Ymb, they do not owe anything to the state of Israel?!? What about all the money for the yeshivos? What a disgrace! What a chillul HaShem
you missed my point.if eretz yisrael would be under british or any other rule,the yeshivos would get the same funding as they do now.
mdd:Ymb, stop with the lunacy!!! If they lived in US or Poland, or Russia, and there were a draft, you would also tell the government to go jump in the lake? Are you out of your mind?
point is now there is no draft in any of those countries along with the british who were rulers before 1948.if we would be under their rule,there would be no draft.
rabbi of berlin:ymb- (shmoel or josef under a diffent name ?) First, get your history right. Many nazis were caught and executed by the allies and many more were sent to prison;
by the allies yes!!but by the israelis only eichmann!!because as you said:BTW- Eichmann was a special symbol and this why Israel mae every effort to catch him so they wanted to look like they were the heroes killing the bad guy(long after they had a hand in helping)meanwhile they couldnt care less about catching germans cuz they were working with them all along,they were quite happy with the killing of the “old” jew who was to weak to resist…May 15, 2012 10:03 am at 10:03 am #874419
rabbiofberlin:As far as Israel goes- you are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your facts.Eretz Yisroel was always a magnet to jews who wanted to live in Eretz Yisroel and make ‘alyah”- yes- this is what R’Jehuda halevi, The Bartenura, the Ari ,the Bias josef , and so many others did-they made alyah to live in eretz Yisroel.
you are proving my point.we didnt need the state of israel to live in the land of israel.we didnt need the state for the kosel,people davened there for centuries before.
It is ‘min hashomaim” that there was a movement in the late nineteenth century to establish jewish sovereignity over eretz yisroel-that movement was actually called “chovevei tsion”a fully orthodox movement and it became the zionist movement.
wrong again.they had no intention of making a state ,just to live in ertz yisroel under the rule of whoever was living there.
I believe-unlike you- that EVERYTHING is “min hashomaim”- including the zionist movement.
you know what?i believe it too!!but it comes under the title
“levaavur nassos eschem”.
The facts are that over six million jews live there, Torah is thriving and all of this is possible because HKBH gave us the means to defend ourselves- the army. Live with it.
actually there are under six million jews in israel today.
and that includes all the jews converted by the state and its organizations,where a good percentage of them are null and void as we know.or just that the government states they were jews before they came to israel ,like ethiopians russians etc.
tora is thriving no thanks to israel who made every effort to eradicate it from us(the biggest shmad there ever was),but by the vision of our gedolim who pushed for a kollel and another kollel and another yeshiva!!!!May 15, 2012 10:14 am at 10:14 am #874420
As I said, I am not interested in re-opening the Kastner debate, “shmoel”. But allow me to answer your (seemingly) provocative question- that it was Eichmann who saved the jews by allowing this train to go through.
Eichmann was caught in 1960 and executed in 1962. So he lived for another 17 years after the war. WHY? If you believe, as you constantly write, that everything is ‘min hashomaym”, why did HKBH allow him to live (pretty well ,I may say) for fiteen years after his dastardly and evil deeds?
Maybe, just maybe, it was the “sechar’ (reward) for having let 1700 Jews live. I’d like to hear your answer on that.
so what was he according to you???a tsaddik(???)??so why did the israelis kill him??
a rasha(and he only merited to live that long cuz rasha vetov lo to punish him better in the next world)??then why is kastner any different???May 15, 2012 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #874421
Ymb and Ben Levi, I postulate London is the capital of Spain!
If someone does not want to listen seriously to the other party’s arguments, but to defend his opinion at any cost, you will never prove anything to him.May 15, 2012 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #874422
Ymb, you know, some people are of the opinion that there was no Holocaust.May 15, 2012 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #874423
Avi K: “Zichmich, you are the one who is haughty and arogant. An army cannot have a different pesak for each Jewish soldier.”
That is correct. So in order to accomadate the chareidim the army should follow the view of their rabbonim.
“Their is an Army Rabbinate and they have the status of mara d’atra.”
That is your personal opinion. The chareidim [myself included] disagree with your assesment of what does or does’nt consitute “mara d’atra.
“Unless someone is (really) learning, disabled, etc.he has an absolute Tora obligation to serve.”
As I mentioned before, the chareidim don’t agree with your “Torah.” In OUR torah, according to our Rabbonim there is no such obligation.
BTW Do you disagree that the army is lax in certain mitzvas and justifying because you believe it’s a mitzva to serve in the army, or do you believe that the IDF’s yiddishkeit is the best there is?May 15, 2012 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #874424
Well, I see that my postings have elicited a rather elaborate reply from (mainly)ymb. A couple of things: I have no desire-nor will I- re-open the debate about kastner and “the train”. Neither of us were there so we have no idea what Kastner did or did not do. The only fact we know is that 1700 jews were saved (amongst them many chareidim). As far Eichmann is concerned, he is burning in hell for all eternity but even ‘reshoim’receive ‘sechar’ for their good deeds and so maybe this is why he lived for another 17 years. BTW-Isrel was not a country when most of the Nazis were executed by the allies.
As far as Eretz Yisroel- you may have your opinion about whether one can have a ‘medinah’ or not. The facts are that over six million jews live in israel now, the yeshivos are thriving and yiddishkeit is gaining every day. This would never have been possible under Arab rule- we would have been either killed or expelled- you want proof? look at Iran, Egypt, Saudia Arabia ,Afghanistan and other Arab countries where all other religions are suppressed and persecuted- and this has nothing to do with Zionism. HKBH saw that the Moslems would become such a radical people that it would have impacted our lives as Jews even in Eretz Ysroel (as it dsid in Spain, England, France and other countries in our history)and made it possible for us to regain our sovereignity to protect all Jews living in Eretz Yisroel and all the “mekomos hakedoshim”- that would have been destroyed by the Arabs (see Afghanistan, Egypt and saudia Arabia).
No one could have foreseen in the early days of the twentieth century what would happen later-except for HKBH and He acted accordingly- giving us the opportunity to return to our homeland and exercising sovereignity over it- ‘ule hachayos lochem lifleito gedolah (bereishis 45-8)”.
Facts can be inconvenient but the facts are there for all to see.May 15, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #874425
and to respond to zichmich- you implicitly agreed with me concerning the chassidische world- they want to live a normal life and would clearly come to an accomodation with the government concerning the army. The nachal chareidi is the beginning of such reality and it is perfectly good for tens of thousands of people. It is absoloutely realistic-especially if you include “national service’ which is clearly possible for everyone.
You are (probably) too young to remember the first try at that by the “Imrei Chaim” zt’l (Vishnizer rebbe) in the early sixties- an arrangement that the Israeli government of the day (a lot less sympathetic to religous life than today) agreed to.It was the litvishe roshei yeshiva that objected- and my contention is that today, the same dichotomy exists. The ones who oppose any arrangement are the litvishe roshei yeshiva because they would lose power and money. The gerrer rebbe has many of his chassidim serving in the army and so do many of the other chassidische groups. Only the so-called litvishe world is against it.May 15, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #874426Avi KParticipant
Ymb, are you serious? Who knows why Hashem let him live. Maybe He wanted him to first sweat about when the game would be up.
As for the State, it is necessary for us to fulfill our national mission of creating Hashem’s kingdom on earth and being a light unto the Nations. This takes time. One thing is certain, neither the British nor the Jordanians would give anything to yeshivot.I do not know where you live, but frum Jews who are unhappy with the present situation but do not at least vote have only themselves to blame.May 15, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #874427
YMB – if the medinah is trying to eradicate Torah study, why does it use tax-payers money to fund thousands of Yeshivot and provide stipends for those who study?
Regardless, your pontificating and spouting of endless anti-zionist (Brisker?) propaganda and diatribe fails to address the bottom line: The medinah exists and without it, the lives of countless Yidden are in danger. This is undeniable fact.
As the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZTz”L rightly ruled, it is pikuach nefesh to serve in the army and defend the borders of Eretz Yisrael.May 15, 2012 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #874428
Kastner was put on trial in Isreal and the resulting trial proved his and the Zionist Regime’s role in convincing Hungarians that there was nothing to be afraid of from the Nazi’s ym”s.
This trial was transcribed and Documented in the book “Perfidy” by Ben Hecht ( a secular Jew.
For a time the Zionist establishment banned this book in Isreal. I don’t lnow if it is still banned but it is definitley availible overseas.
Read it, it simply documents the actual “Kastner Trial”.May 15, 2012 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #874429
To state that the Isreali Government is “reponsible for the Torah Learning in Isreal today is patently ridiculous to anyone with a modicum of Knowledge of Isreali history.
Anyone who knows anything about Isreali history is aware that the Zionist Government acted with “mesiras nefesh” to do all in their power to uproot any form of Torah from Judaisim whenever they had a chance.
Ever heard what happened in the Mabbarot?
It is only because Gedolei Yisroel stood in the breach and fought with all their might to establis Yeshivos throughout the land that Torah flourishes in Isreal today.
If however you wish to state that the IGovernment has some zchs in the Torah Learning today. On that most of the Gedolim will agree with you wholeheartdly.
However the meforshim state that if the Umos HaOlam would only have realized the tremendous benefits they recieved from the Korbonos brought on their behalf in the Beis Hamikdosh on Succos they would never have destoyed it, rather they would have run to support it.
Lets hope the Isreali government, which currently faces existential threats that have nothing to do with “manpower”, realizes that now if anything is the time to urge for Teshuva and not destroy the zchusim they have.May 15, 2012 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #874430
ben levi= I checked my postings and I never wrote that “the Israeli governemt is responsible for the Torah learning in Israel today”- I did write that the fact that we have sovereignty over Eretz Yisroel assured us that the yeshivos and the kollelim continued to exist peacefully and are funded by the government.None of this would be possible under Arab rule (G-d forbid) or even British rule. Not one country in the world funds kollelim, as far as I know. And those gedolim that you quote “fought with all their might” could only do it under Jewish rule and it would certainly look different under alien rule.
It is true that the early Zionists were very secular and did not envision a religious Jewish people- so what? Does that mean that we throw the baby out with the bathwater? NO! We work and work ,we try to persuade and convince, we continue accepting the responsibility of living and defending Eretz Yisroel. Can you deny that Israel today is a vastly different country that it was fifty years ago? and it is all “letoivah” ! More religious Jews, more yeshivos, more kolellim, the continued building of our holy homeland- In Judea and Samaria and Jerushalaim… the protection of our mekomos hakedoshim…(BTW- another example of what would happen under arab rule was the destruction of kever josef when we left Shechem…)
Life is never perfect-anyone over 18 knows this. We can only improve with work and patience….not by leaving the field of batlle…May 15, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #874431
avhaben- as far as your question- why isn’t there a demand that arabs serve in the army? well, it just so happens that Moshe Arens- defesne minister under menachem begin- says exactly that! (Haaretz- you dont have to read it, I did, by sheer coincidence!)May 15, 2012 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #874432NaftushMember
Ben Levi, first, Kasztner was never put on trial. Second, Hungarian Jewry proved its blindness and complacency long before Kasztner moved from Romania into Hungary. Third, you have to make a huge leap of faith to accept Mr. Hecht’s argument, that is: this one man, Kasztner, blinded hundreds of thousands to a truth that they would have believed, and acted upon, had only Kasztner spoken out.
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