May 16, 2012 1:35 am at 1:35 am #874433
Yes technically it was Kastner was not the defendent, so what? Historically it is still called the “Kastner Trial”.
Secondly, What leap of faith are you talking about?
Mr Hecht makes very little of an arguement of his own the bulk of his book is simply a recording of an actual trial (a very famous trial at the time) that took place.
Mr. Hecht is simply laying out the facts that were virtually proven at the trial,(Yes they were not able to be totally proven since Kastner was suspiciously killed) that Kastner was basically a collaberator for 90% of the time with the Nazis YM”s and he did his work with the implicit knowledge and actual instructions of many of the lading lights of the secular Zionist movement at the time.
And it is quite well known to any objective historian that aside from Jabotinsky and his group the vast majority of real efforts to save Yidden during the Holocaust was made by Frum Yidden led by the Gedolim.
The secular Zionist leadership was at the best complacent and at the worst activley worked to thwart many Hatzolah plans.
This is proven in the transcripts of the trial as recorded by the secular jewish zionist Ben Hecht and there is no real ansewer to it other then to ban his book.May 16, 2012 1:45 am at 1:45 am #874434
Actually the Gedolim that reestablished Torah after the War fought both in isrealand in CHUl.
The abuse Rabi Aron Kotler, the Satmer Rebbe and other Gedolei Yisroel underwent in Chutz L’aretz is qiuite well documented.
As for what was done in Eretz Yisroel only being possible because it was done under “JEwish” rule.
You are 100% correct Post WW2 the only “democracy” to carry out an intentinal campaign to purposely force Yidden to shmad was the ISreali Government with the despicable Maaborot.
Peyilim was started to fight the ISreali Government because in Isreal because no such campaign was needed outside of Isreal.
As for the ISreali Government funding Kollelim at a level that is not done outside of Isreal.
That happens to be patently unture US Kollel students recieve a comparable level of funding to Isreali Kollel students because of all the programs as well as the addition of a degree since Talmudical Studies is recognized as a legitimate form of study in the US (I Know since I lived in both places).
In Europe social services are actually provided to all.
Regardless of whether or not Iagree with these policies the facts are the funding the ISreali Government provides Kolleim in Isreal is in real dollars not that much different the in the US.May 16, 2012 2:22 am at 2:22 am #874435mddMember
Beh Levi! If 10% of the population in the US were Chareidim in kollel on the government money, the funding would have been stopped very quickly.May 16, 2012 3:06 am at 3:06 am #874436
“never in the history of golus was there an army to defend ourselves”
A very untrue statement maybe you should go check but their were many places were Jews had armies post exile.
lets get down to the real problem here its that the chariedim feel that they cant serve in a army that is part of the “illegitimate” state.
Although can you make sense of this, the Chashminoim were a illegitimate Jewish state. yet we look back on Jewish history and still remember them for doing much good(albeit without a Davidic leader) the problem is to much superstition has filled the air over many generations yes at the moment we don’t have a Davidic dynasty in rule it doesn’t mean that you can throw away the obligation to defend Jews.
But then you will say we have a obligation to learn. i say why cant you do both. And maybe have a few people who can be exempt from military duty to learn but only a very few. In Jewish history not every one was fully learned as in todays society only a few were well knowledgeable the only people who should be exempt from military service are those who are exceptional at learning and who live what they learn, not an everyday joe schmoe who sits and goes i”m learning therefore im exempt. Thats irresponsibleMay 16, 2012 3:30 am at 3:30 am #874437derszogerMember
mdd: Far far less than 10% of Israelis are in Kollel. Even far less than 1% of Israelis are in Kollel. There should be much much more Israelis learning in Kollel than currently are.
If the Israeli government doesnt want to fund Kollel education, let them stop funding students attending Bar Ilan and other Israeli universities as well. And let them stop taxing Chareidim.May 16, 2012 3:33 am at 3:33 am #874438
Ben levi-your posting is totally incoherent. On top of this, you ignore all my points and go off on a tangent of “benefits’ in other countries that are available to poor people. these benefits are available to poor Israelies and poor Americnas and poor British…etc. We are talking very specifically here about direct payments to kollel jungeleit . THAT is not avalaible to anyone else in the world.
You must be very young because you have no idea what Peylim is. I was there at its onset. It was never an organization against the government,as you claim, but against the missionaries. You totally misrepresent Peyilim.
And please give me a real example of how the Israeli government set out to “bring the Yidden to shmad”. An absurd assertion!May 16, 2012 9:26 am at 9:26 am #874439
rob(interesting roshei teivos): A couple of things: I have no desire-nor will I- re-open the debate about kastner and “the train”. Neither of us were there so we have no idea what Kastner did or did not do. The only fact we know is that 1700 jews were saved (amongst them many chareidim). As far Eichmann is concerned, he is burning in hell for all eternity but even ‘reshoim’receive ‘sechar’ for their good deeds and so maybe this is why he lived for another 17 years.
there are so many points so lets go one by one.if he saved(!) SO MANY yidden,Then why did israel kill him???
they should have given him honorary righteous of the gentiles title,given him a medal etc.???please answer me this point and only this point.May 16, 2012 10:07 am at 10:07 am #874440May 16, 2012 11:58 am at 11:58 am #874441
“never in the history of golus was there an army to defend ourselves”
A very untrue statement maybe you should go check but their were many places were Jews had armies post exile.
name me one please.
thank youMay 16, 2012 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #874443mddMember
Derszoger, I know I won’t prove anything to you, but to dispel the confusion: Chareidim including memebers of their families(who all need to be supported constitute 10% of the (Jewish) population.May 16, 2012 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #874444NaftushMember
Ben Levi, the leap of faith is captured in the title Hecht chose. It tells you his conclusion before you even open the book: that Hungarian Jewry was done in neither by the Nazis nor by the community’s own indifference but by our own traitors. This kind of literature is produced after every national disaster, including (lehavdil, of course), Germany’s defeat in WWI. Hecht admits that he’s not a historian, which is to his credit because real historians understand that once the Allies decided on Germany’s total defeat as their only goal, they (especially Britain) wouldn’t allow any unilateral initiative to negotiate with the Nazis over the rescue of Jews. The Nazis knew this and toyed with Kasztner, Brand, Rabbi Weissmandel, etc., currying favor only with the thought that it might help them in their postwar trials. And as for the information that Kasztner “withheld” from the Jews, again, escapees from Poland had been reporting it for years.May 16, 2012 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #874445
One place to start the search would be the time period of Muhammads conquests.May 16, 2012 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #874446
Peyilim was started by Rabbi Chaim Exzra Barzel and Rav Sholom Shwadron a”h to spearhead the efforts to save Yemenite Jews from the Maaborot.
No I was not there however several family memeber were part of the original members.
As for specific examoples?
How about not allowing Parents jobs if they did not agree to send their children to secular schools?
How about forcibly cutting off peyos from children and explaining to them “torah only has to be kept in Chutz Laaretz?
These were commonplace in the Mabbarot.May 16, 2012 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #874447NaftushMember
Further on Hungarian Jewry: for some of the frum, maybe the frummest, it went beyond indifference. Rabbi Teichthal (or an associate of his, writing about him-I don’t have the source in front of me) remarked about the leading rabbis in Hungary before the Shoah: to carry on Shabbat, they put up an eruv. To charge interest, they issued a hetter iska. To carry debts over on Shmitta, they put out a pruzbul. To enjoy hot food on Shabbat, they allowed the blech and a little help from the Shabbes Goy. But for one thing they couldn’t find a hetter: to save their souls by moving to our holy Land. That they ruled out, because of … all those whom Ben Hecht blamed for the destruction of Hungarian Jewry.May 16, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #874448
ymb- you ask why the Israelis abducted Eichmann YM.S and ultimately executed him , rather than giving him the Honor of a rigteous gentile. You are kidding, aren’t you? Again, I don’t know your age, where you live, how much you know about past history but your claim is preposterous. Eichmann was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of jews- he deserved to be hanged, quartered and put to a painful death- his death was too easy-this is why the Israelis- in the name of hundreds of thousands of Holocaust survivors- brought him to trial and hanged him.
I said that, by allowing 1700 Jews to escape death, he might have bought himself a few more years by HKBH. This is quite different than what you said.
As far as Kastner, the evidence is very divided and neither you nor I were there. SO, I prefer to say “jofeh shetika lachcachomim”.May 16, 2012 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #874449
rabbiofberlin: “and to respond to zichmich- you implicitly agreed with me concerning the chassidische world- they want to live a normal life and would clearly come to an accomodation with the government concerning the army. The nachal chareidi is the beginning of such reality and it is perfectly good for tens of thousands of people. It is absoloutely realistic-especially if you include “national service’ which is clearly possible for everyone.”
You have not read my previous post where I wrote clearly that the Chassidicher Rebbes support working for a living, not regarding going to the army. There is no reason that working legally should be linked to serving in the army. What shaychus??? It’s about time they abolished that law and THATS what the [most] Chassidicher Rebbes agree about.May 16, 2012 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #874450
ok.and look what happened to them….May 16, 2012 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #874451
thats right,its not because 1700 yidden got on that train,that he was innocent,because on the flip side he caused hundred of thousand of them to die…
so why are you glorifying kastner??
not enough proof???
are you kidding????May 16, 2012 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #874452
do you know why frum jews eat cholent on shabbes?May 16, 2012 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #874453
zichmich- see item on the YWN news about Eichler introducing a bill to solve these issues. It mirros what people have been saying for a long time. And the chassidische rebbes did indeed tell their chassidim to go the army- I know personally many chassidim who were part of it. BTW- Rav Chaim Schmulewitz zt’l blessed all his talmidim and otherrs who went off to war in 1967.
As far as Peylim goes (ben levi) Rav Schwadron zt’l was never involved in the actual founding of Peyilim. This organization had absolutely nothing to do with the yemenites or the maabarot. It had everything to do with the missionary activity in israel. (I was there).
As far as what went on in the maabarot- again, a lot of it is an urban legend and if there were some excesses , it was never government policy nor do I think it was done in any large number.
I never heard the story about schools but, to put this inot perspective, anyone voting for Herut (menachem begin) in those days was also discriminated from jobs. It was a deplorable way of using politics and, thank G-d, it did not quench the thirst for real yddishkeit or for menachem begin to become prime minister.May 16, 2012 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #874454
rabbiofberlin: “zichmich- you probably don’t know that but your solution is one of the proposed ones- namely to allow everyone to work LEGALLY but not spend any more money from the national treasury on the kollels. Do you know who opposes this? THE ROSHEI YESHIVA !! Because they know that, if given the opportunity, masses of so-called kollel jungeleit would leave the kollelim, thereby deprivig the roshei yesihva and their many hangers-on of jobs.”
If the secular really want that Chareidim to work for a living [legally]why is Rabbi Eichler [from Agudas Yisroel Party]the one introducing the bill to solve these issues??? Why has’nt anyone from the larger parties in power from Kadima, Likud, or Yisroel Beiteinu suggested this solution? Why did this proposal come from the chareidim themselves? Maybe, just Maybe, the Chareidim don’t have anything against working per se, just that they don’t want to join the army???May 16, 2012 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #874455
rabbiofberlin: “zichmich- you probably don’t know that but your solution is one of the proposed ones- namely to allow everyone to work LEGALLY but not spend any more money from the national treasury on the kollels. Do you know who opposes this? THE ROSHEI YESHIVA !! “
I”m still wating for you to respond which Major Roshei Yeshiva [Plural] forbids a person from working to support his family???May 16, 2012 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #874456
zichmich- I suggest you follow Israeli politics more carefully. This solution (allowing everyone to work and stopping subsidies) has been talked about in the Knesset a number of times by secular and religious politicians. Until now, there has been determined opposition to the status quo by the religious parties (mainly degel hatorah) and this is why it has not happened yet. That Eichler has introduced this bill is significant because it means that the Aguda wing of the chareidi parties is looking to a real solution .This brings me to your other question about “roshei yeshiva’. If you have followed israeli poltics over the past fifty years, you will have noticed that the agudah has tried to work with the government (vishnitzer rebbe, Itshe meir levin, Nachal chareidi) but has been thwarted mainly by the ‘degel hatorah” faction- the instrument of the roshei yeshiva and the litvishe yeshivos. If you don’t believe me, ‘pook mo amo diber’ go and look who signs the “cheruzim” on this. Concerning work ,all you have to do is listen to what roshei yeshiva say, whether in Ponevez, Chevron or Lakewood. And the fact is that any relaxation of the army rules would see droves of kollel jungeleit leave the yeshivos, with the result of a shrinkage in positions in yeshivas and the influx of state money.May 16, 2012 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #874457
rabbiofberlin: “zichmich- see item on the YWN news about Eichler introducing a bill to solve these issues. It mirros what people have been saying for a long time. And the chassidische rebbes did indeed tell their chassidim to go the army”
AYou keep saying and repeating the chassidim really want to join the army.
Where, please tell me, where exactly did you read into Eichler suggestion that he wants to come to an agreement with the goverment regarding joining the army???
He simply wants to help the chareidim WORK legally. That’s it. Where in the dictionary is work equated with serving in any millitary???
[If the chassidim are pro serving or not serving is a total subject unto itself. Don’t confuse the two.]
“BTW- Rav Chaim Schmulewitz zt’l blessed all his talmidim and otherrs who went off to war in 1967.”
Any sane erliche yid would bless every and any type of jew who is serving in the army that he should come home safely. That is no proof that Rav Chaim Schmulewitz zt’l supports them joining initially.May 17, 2012 12:00 am at 12:00 am #874458
zichmich= please read the news item properly. Eichler is proposing a professional army- for whomever chooses to serve- and a NATIONAL SERVICE for the rest of the population. Learning AND army would also be considered. Please read the news item again.Clearly, Eichler is proposing some kind of national service FOR EVERYONE. In the past (and also the present, as you read the comments of roshei yeshiva on the renewal of the tal law) the roshie yeshiva were virulently opposed to any compromise on the “torah umnoso’ aspect. So, Eichler is very flexible snd i am sure he has the approvla of his rebbes. (gerrer?)May 17, 2012 1:57 am at 1:57 am #874460
rabbiofberlin: The truth is, I don’t believe “the establishment” would go for Eichler’s suggestion. They would 100+ excuses why it can’t work.May 17, 2012 2:03 am at 2:03 am #874461
Ymb, you say
ok.and look what happened to them….
Sorry but that’s a weak argument, whether or not they were conquered is irrelevant. So are you telling me that the Davidic kingdom that was conquered happened, because you say Jews shouldn’t defend themselves. you can use the same logic for both, but it doesn’t mish.
Are you a prophet do you know what G-d is thinking when he lets things happen. actually you can say it happened because they didn’t go to the aid of another Jewish community that was under attack.
Of course i”m just guessing not stating fact whether that’s the reason they were conqueredMay 17, 2012 2:07 am at 2:07 am #874462
For those that say ther would’nt be enough volunteers:
Much has changed since ’73. The population of citizens is much much larger. There are thousands of Russians and Ethopions and others who who would eagerly serve in such a army. [I see how ethusiastic they serve in the “Yassam.” why should’nt they join the army for the right benefits???
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