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Should a child who freid-out while young, and R”L never returned, be entirely disinherited or should a token be left for him?
The type of parent who causes an OTD kid, is the type of parent who would inherit same kid.
I would think this is a question for a rav.
Maybe the parents could stipulate in their will that a designated portion of the inheritance will be given to that child upon his/her making certain lifestyle changes that are in line with the parents wishes.
a) by leaving a substantial amount behind for him just like the rest of the children; you are showing him unconditional love. He may be touched by this and want to return. However a child over his teen years who has gone completely off, it is more than an 80% chance of him never returning.
b)a couple who does not observe taharat hamishpachah causes their kids to go off the derech.. once the kids have grown and chosen their path it inevitably becomes clear to the rest of the world how stringent the parents were when it came to this halacha…
Perhaps the parents could help the observant children financially while they are alive, but I think the inheritence should be divided equally bc they are all equally your children. Also, you’d be causing severe/irreversible animosity between the siblings, not to mention, eternal anger towards the parents..
More, a couple who does not observe taharat hamishpachah wasn’t on the derech to begin with…. As for how to treat such children, following Hashem’s example might be useful:
?? ??? ???? ???? ??
More, where do you get your statistics from? What is the 80% of otd children based on?
Side note: if c’v my child ate a bacon sandwich infront of me I would still never “disinherit” him. Why are we even discussing this? Your child is your child. You show them unconditional love. I would think one would never give up hope of them returning to the right path.
More,
Your taharas hamishpacha comment and thephilosophy behind it cause more people to go off the derech
Poppa bar abba:That comment really is not becoming of someone of your well read stature.There are many wonderful normal fine parents who try everything conventionally and unconventionally and still have a kid OTD.
More: “However a child over his teen years … an 80% chance of him never returning.”
I do not Know what the exact stats are in terms of percentage wise but let us just say your observation is correct. That will still leave a 20% chance of return.
People have defied far greater odds when coming back from life threatening illness.If there was a 20% chance of your child returning to the fold would you not want to risk anything that might work?
I am well aware Gemara and seforim talk about Taharas Hamishpacha and the influence it can have on our children’s upbringing.However, please think about what you wrote. There are many fine families,people in your neighborhood, (whichever one it is )even Rabbonim and I am sure even readers of this forum who are careful in the mentioned area that still have to deal in some form with a problematic child or someone going off the Derech.
Forgive me and I am sure you actually do know this, but judging Likaf zechus is always important especially this time of year.Unless something is really blatant,or unless you live in someones house it is really not possible to be
” clear” about any Tzaros an individual or a family has.We really cannot understand Cheshbonos for isurim.
Mommia22:a)You had a suggestion that has worked with some individuals
Vochindik- The whole entire situation has to be known to give an answer.
(what where when why)Unless it is an extreme situation someone going off in their teens or young adulthood still might return when older.A)The source of their angst might not have had anything to do with their going OTD but was the most convenient way of dealing with their confused feelings.B)Their ambivalence and/or ignorance of certain aspects of yiddishkiet at the time,were due to being young and thinking they knew everything but once more mature maybe the person in question will remember the positives and seek to deal with their Emunah and return.C)Their were outside influences friends, stressors etc.. that family might not have known about or the person could not escape that heavily influenced the change in lifestyle that are no longer present. D)A person might come back for the sake of their children.
Personally I would consult with someone like Rebbetzin Jungreis or Aish Hatorah.These are people that deal with these issues everyday and can listen and try to dissect the whole situation. They might even be the Shlichim to bring the person in question back to the fold. Hatzlacha!
Perhaps the child went OTD because of the parent and the child wants nothing to do with the parent.
I suppose every ba’al teshuva’s parents accidentally kept taharas hamishpacha, yes?
More- Could you please give your phone number. You seem to have a direct line with Hakodosh Boruch hu, and many people would like to speak with you.
Poppa bar abba:That comment really is not becoming of someone of your well read stature.There are many wonderful normal fine parents who try everything conventionally and unconventionally and still have a kid OTD.
It is precisely because of my well read stature that I say this. Kids go OTD because of bad parenting. Many wonderful fine people are bad parents, and it is quite impossible for you to know they are not bad parents by just being friends with their family and visiting their house.
Despite what you are told by your soothsayers, there are no mysterious OTD’s. Every one has a good explanation. Give me a couple hours with them, and I can usually figure it out too.
And it is exactly that type of parent, who would also disinherit same kid. Thus reinforcing the problem they started.
Yitay: R’ Moshe says that we assume that.
More: All the Gemara says is that a Ben/Bas Niddah will be rude. Nothing about not keeping Halachah.
Yitay: R’ Moshe says that we assume that.
This reminds me of another shaila with my dumb friend http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/my-dumb-friend. So this friend thinks that he needs a girl who has some azus; because it fits his personality well. (He says this, again though, he is dumb.)
So the problem is that he can’t marry a BT, because if she has azus, then the assumption is she is a ben nidda. I told him that he is too dumb to know if she has azus anyway.
PBA: There’s no Issur on marrying a Bas Niddah anyway. And we still believe in B’chirah Chofshis. Just because someone has more of a tendency towards Azus does not mean that they can’t overcome it or use it for good.
Sam –
I’m not going to debate that. But if there is one parent in the world with one kid who is frum and one who isn’t, then more is upgeshlugged, even if R’ Moshe is right.
PBA:
You are so wrong it is pathetic. Do you work with OTD kids? Or their parents? Do you know these situations well enough to blast such insane and untrue generalizations? Your comment is shameful, and you owe some requests for mechila to many people.
Here are some facts you might consider:
* The environment to which our children are exposed is highly toxic – worse than any other generation. For examples, think about technology, the exposure of information virtually everywhere, and the norms of the society in which we live.
* Despite the proliferation of apparatus to simplify life and save us time, there is no one who really saves anything. We’re all busier than ever, more preoccupied with countless things, and distracted successfully away from the home.
* Our entire chinuch system is based on larger and larger groups, with the supreme focus being compliance, not education. Read through some yeshivos and school entrance packets with the “rules” and the consequences of varying levels of rejection (detention, suspension, expulsion). Now tell me how a talmid is supposed to develop the motivation to excel in Torah and mitzvos.
* A child grows up in many different environments with many layers of complexity of influences. It is stupid and unfair to lay blame at the feet of anyone for all or most cases of OTD kids. As many cases of those who have backgrounds of “dysfunctional families”, there are at least as many who are victims of the chinuch system, or have other experiences that pushed them into the realms of struggle.
* There are many like you, PBA, who blame parents for everything. So did Freud, and he has been shelved by most members of the mental health professions – and for a good reason. Most people who point fingers at the families are actually looking to divert any attention to the failures and shortcomings of communities and chinuch. It is a simple, but ineffective defense.
* As for the opening question, each instance has its own unique features, and would require a specific eitzah from someone broad minded enough to grasp the entire situation. These generalities about all OTD kids or 80% of them, etc. are foolish and frankly primitive thinking.
I’m quite sure there is nothing I could say to convince you, so I’ll not try.
But, just to make fun of you, I’ll note that your second bullet point is about bad parenting…
Also, your third bullet point is precisely the point (with a bit more explanation). But, the real problem is when the parents have that attitude. When the parents are good, then it is almost impossible for anything else to matter. But, when the parents are bad, then everything the school does just reinforces it.
Chazal were not happy with people who disinherited OTD children as Hashem wanted children to inherit as He set forth and the child might have a BT child (Baba Batra 133b and Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 282:1).Rav Moshe says ( Igrot Moshe C.M. 2:50)that if the son has completely left Judaism it is unlikely that he will have observant descendants but this may no longer be true.On the other hand, disinheriting the child might make the situation worse.
b)once the kids have grown and chosen their path it inevitably becomes clear to the rest of the world how stringent the parents were when it came to this halacha…
Please quote a source which says that you can definitively state that a couple was not careful regarding taharas Hamishpacha by seeing that a child has gone off the derech.
The Wolf
“Kids go OTD because of bad parenting.”
Hmm, did our Avos, Avrohom and Yitchok have split personalities; bad parenting for Yishmael and Eisav and good parenting for Yitzchok and Yaakov? I think not.
Cherrybim,
Take a look at the medrash rabbah(very beginning of brashis or shemos(or one of the other 3 chumashim)) where the parenting mistakes of the aforementioned avos are laid out. It doesn’t mention that they had split personalities, but as PBA mentioned, some children need special treatment without which they will end up in trouble. But, not every child of a parent who is unsuccessful at parenting will necessarily end up in trouble.
So, therefore, it could be that avreham and yitzchak made mistakes (dkei dakos ones for those with slabodka leanings) and contributed to their childrens eventual sins, while NOT having split personalities.
A parent could have parented one child well while parenting another child bad. So the fact one sibling is good and one bad, doesn’t disprove that the bad one received bad parenting.
Ravhamachshir- I have heard that mehalech, but I’ve heard the other perspective as well. I think I remember hearing R’ Paysach Krohn say that the fact that Yitzchak Avinu had an OTD son in Eisav shows that even the best parents can have OTD children. It’s not always in the parent’s control and sometimes the best eitzah is tefilah.
Simcha613,
I agree that
It's not always in the parent's control and sometimes the best eitzah is tefilah.,but in the case of the avos it would seem that the medrash was saying that they reacted incorrectly to what their children were doing(or something like that, I dont recall the exact details).
Well, Eisev remained a rasha.
Parents who have OTD children often complain that they were not good parents. They are then brought back to reality when confronted with the successes of their other children. While there are dysfunctional homes and there are parents who are failures in the parenting department, most parents are adequate or better. (I learned this at MASK meetings.)
The fact is that children are not identical, and each one needs a parenting style that is molded to fit the individual. Yet, many parents try to mold the child to fit the parenting style, and this can become a problem. This problem is rampant in chinuch when all children are expected to respond identically to rules, teaching styles, curricula, and discipline styles. The good rebbe knows how to manage a classroom with inequality (as in ???? ???? ?? ?? ????).
When a parent misapplies a parenting strategy to a child where it backfires, we have the making of problems, including OTD. These errors are sometimes neglectful, rarely intentional. Focusing on the parent, as in laying blame, is futile. Past actions cannot be changed, and expecting that to be the only cause will divert attention from many other possible factors. There is much that parents can do to help the situation of an OTD child, but the blame stuff does not work.
As to the matter of the Avos being held responsible for the sins of their children, we must place this in the context of how HKB”H deals with tzaddikim ???? ?????, held up to a higher standard than anyone else.
I think I remember hearing R’ Paysach Krohn say that the fact that Yitzchak Avinu had an OTD son in Eisav shows that even the best parents can have OTD children.
Or it shows that even popular speakers can say dumb things every now and then.
Seriously, does he think this sort of soothsaying does anything for anyone? Has he so completely given up on influencing people that the only thing left to do is make them feel better about the way they are.
little I know: Your posts are contradictory.
PBA: Have a little more respect for a tremendous Talmid Chacham. Whether or not your sentiment is correct, that was not quite a proper way to say that you disagree.
Let’s not get carried away.
PBA: Okay, tremendous might be an overstatement. But he still is well-respected as a speaker and a Talmid Chacham and should be treated with a higher level of respect than I feel that you gave.
Ok, maybe my second paragraph could have been left out.
He is well-respected as a great and tremendous public speaker. His claim to fame isn’t his scholarly knowledge. (Though he may be a scholar, he isn’t known as being a greater scholar than the average scholar.)
if i may jump in here..
there are many different reasons why children go otd.
ultimately, the reason why any of us here is “on” the “d” is because his/her own choices. Parenting takes us only so far. There are many other influences a person faces and is exposed to besides the parents.
“ultimately, the reason why any of us here is “on” the “d” is because his/her own choices. Parenting takes us only so far”
Granted, every person is responsible for his/her life. Throughout the whole world over, it’s not merely the allure of the outside element that causes people to change their life from their childhood. It’s usually a reflection of how they were treated in someway or another.
cherrybim- look at what R shamshon r hirsch says in regard to why eisav went wrong. i’m not gonna come under fire for saying it outright.
Why leave money to a child who is otd and possibly encourage or entice him to even gretaer diregard for Hashem and His Torah, spirituality and his own individual tachlis? More taava, more hedonism, more sensory existence. why would a parent want to give that child even more nisyonos?
Toi and Cherrybim — RSRH says (I’m paraphrasing) that Eisav went wrong because his parents provided an education tailored to Yaakov’s middot but left no room for someone with Eisav’s middot to serve Hashem. RSRH believed that hinukh must be intensively individualized and that no mida is off-limits in serving Hashem if it’s educated correctly.
You can imagine how this was greeted in certain circles.
Fire away.
RABBAIM, so it is better to leave nothing for the child who is OTD but hurt,anger, pain, and bitterness? forever?
Perhaps the OTD child will not spend the money on bad things. Fakairt, maybe he or she will spend it on good things because that’s what the parents would have wanted. Or maybe do teshuvah one day! One can never close the door on a child.
We do avairos but Hashem continues to give us air and water and food.
In 1998 I did a non-scientific analysis of polls in Israel on major changes in people’s personal religious orientation. It turned out that about half the population made at least one major change at some point in their lives and many made more than one. The parenting lesson that I learned from this is not to do anything irreversible. But David Hamelekh pointed this out long before: ??? ??????? ????? ??? etc.
Imaof3-I agree with you. Like I said before, by disinheriting the OTD child,you’d be causing severe/irreversible animosity between the siblings, not to mention, eternal anger towards the parents, closing the door to them ever considering to do teshuvah.
RABBAIM, Hashem thru His Torah warn repeatedly against cutting the bond between generations. Many sins that damage the bonds between generations are raised to the status of misos beis din.
What about the idea of dividing the inheritance but putting the share of the one who is OTD in a trust with clear stipulations as to what type of lifestyle over how long a period of time would free the money to him? Or what about leaving it in a trust to be divided amngst HIS cghildren if they become Shomrei Torah Umitzvos?
RE: Cutting off- The one who is OTD did the cutting,not the parent who does not want to give a big yerusha. We can love the child or adult who has dumped our lifestyle, beliefs, tradition and history a deeep and real love, but we need not approve of their chosen lifestyle and if the de facto result of THEM cutting the string is a loss of inheritance, who did the cutting?
BTW, if one goes too far, are you aware that parents may be obligated to sit Shiva?? Obviously Halcha feels that at some point cutting ties is really pretty serious business.
Rabbaim: Halachah never states to sit Shiva for a not-Frum child. There was a Minhag for a long time to sit Shiva for a child who intermarried (R’ Schachter says that it was originally only for a son who intermarried and that the Shiva is for his children who won’t be Jewish). Some Yechidim sat Shivah in individual situations to show extreme sadness. From there, somehow, the custom has spread to where a lot of people sit Shivah for a lot of things. But it’s not Halachah.
And there is a Passuk against your attitude. The Torah says, “Lo Yuchal L’vaker Es Ben Ha’ahuva Al P’nei Ben Has’nuah Hab’chor.” The Gemara says that “Has’nuah” means even if he is “S’nuah Lifnei Hamakom”.
Rabbaim, when it comes to compelling behavior from the grave, including worthy behavior, Gentile courts (American ones, at least) operate under the principle of “You can’t take it with you” except under very odd circumstances. Out of ignorance, I do not know whether batei din behave differently. My hava amina is that we have our time in this world to make our efforts, and when it’s done, it’s done. But does anyone on this thread have a credible answer in halakha?
There are many OTD people who imho are better people than many on the derech…
Why do people make life decisions? There are a thousand reasons. Do you really know that because someone makes a decision that on the outside looks to be wrong that it truly is not for the better? I think taking them out of an inheritance is stupid, and I think blaming it on the parents is stupid as well. Do we actually perceive someone who decides not to wear tzitzis and a yarmulke as having failed himself and his family? Is that really the sum total of life and its challenges? If someone sees the world a little differently than we do, is that somehow a sign that somebody messed up somewhere? Isn’t one of Judaism’s “claim to fame” the fact that we don’t believe all goyim are going to hell? Is that because they’re just too stupid to know better, or perhaps because what they believe actually has merit too and deserves respect? Sometimes it amazes me how close-minded people can be.
If a frum person goes OTD he (or she) is a rasha.
Sam2- that is what I meant buy going too far. marrying a non Jewish woman or even moving in with a non Jewish woman with an agreement (even de facto) of being in a “permanent” live in relationship. It was just too hard to write it out so I said “going too far”. If one marries out then one is supposed to sit Shiva. I heard this psak from a few Gedolim who were issuing the ruling as Halacha Lmaaseh
Naftush- One can set up a trust in US law and stipulate whatever he wishes… he can say that the money can only be used to buy cars for people with blue eyes. He can stipulate that only college grads can benefit form this trust and he can stipulate that only Shomrei Torah Umitzvos can benefit. It is not regulating from the grave. It is a valid legal trust with specific structure and direction.
In halacha one can give a conditional gift and so one can say that they give child x 100G if he keeps Toarh and Mtzvos (req definition) for 3 years…….. or whatever.
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