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@shtatier than you- Not sure what I said, no problem!
@ GAW- “Part of being an Israeli Charaidi (which doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world) is the promotion of complete isolation from any outside influences, including other religious Jews who are not Charaidi.”
How can you teach your children about “Achdus”, about trying to please Hashem, when you PROMOTE isolation from other Jews, especially frum ones, who follow the same TORAH as YOU????
Just for some input- When I started becoming frummer, and started looking into the charedi community as a beautiful place, I noticed that while alot of people were welcoming of me and my new found appreciation of torah, so many people were like oh how will you find a Shidduch? You didn’t go to Bais Yaakov, you didn’t go to a Bais Yaakov Seminary, your in university etc. etc.
I’m sorry that not everyone fits the mold of the Charedim and their community, and while I think what you are doing is beautiful, people are being left out and marginzlized. Even if I wanted to be charedi, I would never be accepted as one. No mother would look at my resume because I don’t fit the box, it’s “mixing” with other Jews, when your trying to isolate yourself from us.
What kind of Jew are you then? Honestly, please introspect on yourself. I believe what you are doing has beauty and meaning, but how can you explain to your children that you are yearning for the Yeshua everyday, if you are cutting yourself out from the rest of the people who are also. I know me and everyone else are far from perfect, but in all sincerity, the Yeshua will only come when were united. I’m sure from all the Torah you learn, you know this.
(disclaimer- I’m not accusing you of making people feel marignzlied, I don’t know you, but I am saying the mentaility you attempt to foster in your community causes that)
I’ve heard strange things like bochurim in Lakewood told not to date anyone who has a college degree or who is going to college. I guess the girls’ future is supposed to be running playgroups for every conceivable age group, or to have their husbands go from shul to shul with their hands out. Not everyone is cut out to be a successful businessman, and the reality is that you need money for basic necessities, which include food, clothing and tuition. Of course, we have to have bitachon that Hashem will provide them, but we see that those who actually do make an effort and get trained in something and a job not only are able to provide for their families, but give tzedakah. So I am not sure what the original letter in this thread aims to do. It sounds like those who sit around doing nothing and believe thatthey will get the same parnassa as if they actually worked. We see it doesn’t work that way.
flatbusher: I take it you went to university so I’m a bit surprised at your reading comprehension.
You wrote: “So I am not sure what the original letter in this thread aims to do. It sounds like those who sit around doing nothing and believe thatthey will get the same parnassa as if they actually worked.”
Yet the RY wrote fakert: “The standard of living since I first came to Eretz Yisroel 44 years ago has changed entirely. When I first came, there was a drastic difference between the standard of living in America and in Eretz Yisrael. Here there was no intense pursuit of worldly pleasures and a life of luxury… There is no doubt that if the standard of living were lower, the nisyonos would be lower… The nisyonos that Hashem sends us are due to the fact that we should lower our standard of living.”
Lower standard of living? Have you any idea what basic necessities cost?
Chazal had an idea: pas b’melach tochal.
In Chazals time parnassah was obtained very differnt than now, It was an agricultural society and people were generally more self sufficient and did many things themselves (Like make their own clothes) . Today we do not farm for out own food on generally rely on other people for income (Even if you are you own boss you need customers and you rely on them)
Maran HaGaon HaRav Aaron Yehuda Leib Shteinman shlit”a too:
Rav Schneider added the Rosh Yeshiva was asked about a shidduch for a girl studying in a chareidi college. The rav said the boy should look for another shidduch, adding
The rav was asked if he is concerned the young lady will not find a shidduch, to which he explained he is not worried about her shidduch but if she will find the correct derech and her Yiras Shomayim.
Joseph, your ignorance of other opinions is astounding, you seem to believ that every word rav shteinman says is 100% halacha when you sit here, on thee internet, something rav shnteinman shlita would surely have tremendous issues, one cannot simply approach this topic with a one sided approach that since my gedolim say this therefore it is the halacha and every other rav (mind the numerous chashuv ones who say not like this) who doesn’t say like them is Krum and is going to gehenim, especially when you don’t hold yourself to the standards of your own rabbonim.
“Chazal had an idea: pas b’melach tochal.”
Nice idea. But chazal never said everyone has to do it. If you want to be moiser nefesh as much as humanly possible for Torah, that’s what you do. But a number of chazal were quite wealthy.
“The rav was asked if he is concerned the young lady will not find a shidduch, to which he explained he is not worried about her shidduch but if she will find the correct derech and her Yiras Shomayim.”
What about a shidduch with a guy in a chareidi college?
Rebbe Yid: Who ever said anything about everyone doing it? There are quite a few givirim in the diamond district (to take an example) who are quite wealthy too.
About your second question, that wasn’t the question asked of Rav Shteinman but there’s no reason to think he’d have said any differently. Indeed the guys have a chiyuv of limud Torah whereas the girls do not, so it is an even bigger issue for a guy to do it.
hock: huh?
“There is no doubt that if the standard of living were lower, the nisyonos would be lower…Chazal had an idea: pas b’melach tochal. ”
I agree that many, many people should lower their standard of living- there is no need to become a fancy lawyer or doctor in order to make 200k per year and work 24/7 when you have 2 kids.
But what about the people who can only afford food to eat if nothing happens to their car, and if they have to fix their car, they dont eat, if they dont fix their car, they dont work, and hence they dont eat. what about the people who can barely afford rent? who dont eat every day or only eat pasta in order to pay rent. The people who sit in pain day after day because they cant afford to see a dentist. These are just the basics- cant lower it more than that.
newbee: HaRav Moshe Hillel Hirsch shlit”a answered your question in the first post of this thread.
Can you please copy and paste the answer you are referring to.
One thing I will never forget from my first year in college (in all honesty one of the few things I remember), in a seemingly innocent psych course- one young man came in the beginning wearing a keepa, at the end of the course he stopped wearing it. The professor kept going off on tangents having nothing related to the course material how silly and contentious religion is and about this woman who was suffering from being brought up orthodox.
You just answered your own question.
what do you mean? how does that answer the problem of people not being able to eat because they cant buy food or cant afford to see a dentist? because someone took a humanities course and went off the derech means someone else with a solid foundation should be somech on a nes or starve?
newbee:
One thing I will never forget from my first year in college (in all honesty one of the few things I remember), in a seemingly innocent psych course- one young man came in the beginning wearing a keepa, at the end of the course he stopped wearing it.
I’m curious – did you speak to the young man and ask him why he stopped wearing it, or are you assuming that it was because of the course?
I would like to add another thought into the mix. This might sound very controversial but what about a person not just getting a college degree to get a good job (though that is the main aim) but also for personal fulfillment. (I am talking about women as well)
Hashem gives people talents for a reason.
taka: He basically said college was all about trying new things and finding out who you really are, came from a MO background.
“but also for personal fulfillment” tell him to learn torah and do mitzvos- it will also be a lot cheaper.
I think a bigger problem is not that people mamish go off the derech from college- but they sacrifice all of their learning time for it and between that and davening 3 times a day they have no time to learn. The only learning they end up doing is the 5 min google search for a halachic issue that comes up or a brief glance at a daf yomi. Most talmudic skills are lost within 4 years after Israel.
Joseph brought up the news story above about Rav Shteinman being against even a frum college.
Why did Rav Shteinman say that?
The simple answer is that he feels that college, even a frum college, is no place for a nice frum lady. I think that he might have another end goal.
A friend of mine, when he was in kollel in Jerusalem, had a fellow Kollel Yungeliet that was close to Rav Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg. His friend told him that Gedolim, like Rav Sheinberg, did not like the present system of women working so much out of the home, BUT the Gedolim do not protest because their words would not be accepted (if not worse).
With that idea in mind, maybe Rav Shteinman is for a system where the women will stay as the Akeret Habayit, and the man will worry about parnasa.
But some women want to go to college because they enjoy learning and want to be a doctor or marine biologists because it’s what they like.
MDG, then why does he oppose men going to college?
Lost time from learning, both during college and working in the corporate world. Kefira also, I suppose. But as mentioned much earlier (on the first page of this thread) this is the standard charaidi Litvish shita.
Litvish shitta? I don’t think the Chasidish shitta is different.
I didn’t mean one to the exclusion of the other. I was paraphrasing from “old man” from the first page. I’m sorry for any confusion.
Profound101 commented on the matter of someone pursuing college education for personal fulfillment, in contrast to the motive to earn large income. I wish to add another element – something I believe is much more relevant and in the direction of fulfilling Ratzon Hashem. Maybe some people need to get that college education because Klal Yisroel needs them. These people possess the capabilities and skills that, if educated properly, can be the doctors, lawyers, and other professionals that Klal Yisroel needs. Maybe it is not about their personal fulfillment, but for the benefit of the Klal.
I personally know several very frum individuals, whose Yir’as Shomayim is not questioned, who have advanced college degrees, and serve the Klal – on whom the phrase ?????? ????? ????? ?????? is appropriate. Is there a reason why to keep these individuals away from college? Or are we just making pronouncements about this subject because they are politically popular? How many of these who which to make college education ossur know anything about the college experience firsthand?
Here’s the key point you are missing, college has little to do with parnassah. Mostly they just jam liberal arts down your throat.
The famous stat that grads make on average 1 million more than non is an average, therefore useless. It combines david rockefeller and the homeless guy.
the median figure is about 5,000 usd per year over your whole career, which is easily explainable by brains and work ethic.
Chassidim follow the dictates of their Rebbe, which is (for almost everyone) not Kollel full time as long as you can. They still understand what it means “Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penimah”.
owl – IF (and that is a big IF) you go to college, you need to go for something that is directly related to Parnassah. If you stam go for underwater basket weaving, it Takah is useless.
What is the median figure once you only take into account STEM (including the health fields)?
“the median figure is about 5,000 usd per year over your whole career”
I just googled it. The median income gap is much wider, more like $20,000.
See wikipedia for an example:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States
Here’s the federal government’s statistics, showing an income gap of over $400 plus weekly:
bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
From the article Joseph just quoted:
“A very short letter was sent by HaGaon HaRav Aryeh Yehuda Leib Shteinman Shlita expressing opposition to the teaching of secular subjects to girls in high school and to ‘educate the girls in the exclusive framework of Beis Yaakov’ “
That’s clearly for E”Y, as every BY school in America that I ever heard of teach some secular subjects.
The point we see from the Gedolim shlit”a is that even that is a b’dieved, either due to government mandates (that we try to minimize) or because a number of parents will only send their child to a frum school under those circumstances (especially in chutz l’aaretz). Where secular studies can be avoided altogether, all the better.
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