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I just flew from New York to an out of town location. It was a pretty long flight, so I spent most of the time in the back talking to the flight attendants.
At one point of time, the conversation turned to different people they had flown with. Not realizing I was jewish, one of them told a story that happened when she was flying the JFK-TLV route. It involved someone mistakenly taking her personal sandwich. After telling over the story, her comments were: “but I wasn’t surprised. That’s how they all are” and “served him right that it wasn’t kosher, he shouldn’t have grabbed without asking.” and other comments like that.
The other flight attendant said, “oh you don’t have to tell me about “them”, I live in Queens.” They then went on to talk about how rude and pushy “they” are and how they act like everything is “theirs”.
Standing there, there was nothing that I could say because unfortunately I have seen it for myself on other flights. The frum yidden sometimes seem to think that they own the place and “bishvil li nivra haolam”.
It is true that we are “am hanivchar”, but isn’t also true that we are in galus? Does anyone else feel like we should maybe realize that we are not the ones in charge, or the most important ones?
Any thoughts?
Midos, midos, midos.
Not enough focus on them in school and at home. If we only checked our Midos as thoroughly as we check our vegetables.
Unfortunately this is so true and always happens. Especially with the people who make problems with their seat because it’s next to a lady!
I would say that those who have seen it would agree that it’s a massive chillul Hashem, and those who don’t or can’t see it, should look in the mirror… and not just on airplanes.
I think a lot of people, and as (from your story and our experiences) frum people too/especially do not really understand what it means to be a “Chosen” people. We need to act(myself included) like what we ‘chosen’ to act like and not feel like we are more important than everyone else, although our mission in life may be.Unfortunately it seems that too many Jews think that we can do whatever we want because we are “tight” with Hashem and it does not really matter what others (goyim or the non-frum )think, because ‘who are they?’
I am from a BT family(they became so before I was born)and I try to act in a proper(G-D fearing) manner when near non-Frum relatives because they are under the impression that all frum Jews act in the manner you described above. The best way to fight it is to disprove it.
One thing I may suggest to help the ‘fight’: say hello to goyim or the non religious when walking to shul or wherever. It makes a real difference.
Say,”It’s a pity…our Torah doesn’t promote that at all.”
And prove it- by being refined and courteous.
One person can change a prejudice.
have you ever tried buying a lulav and estrog? Or try to get to the food at Kiddush? These flight attendants have no idea what pushy really is. I once almost got trampled going for some scotch at a chosen’s tish….
Thank you for pointing this out – we all know that we are supposed to act appropriately, but we forget, and we have to be reminded that it is our obligation to act politely, discreetly, and admirably at all times.
similar thing happens upstate . the locals, mostly non jewish , but some jewish not religious talk about how rude the yidden are that come up for the summer and tho i have seen many polite yidden i have seen many that are impolite there as well.
Many thoughts, but I would only be repeating what I have said before.
a nony mus:
Don’t believe everything some antisemites say in private.
Ahhh,
4 month away from yom kippur and this post is up.
is there anything besides complaining, is there some way to be misaken our middos, besides LH on the frum community
BTW, I was on a flight to Minneapolis a few years ago and there were a few devout christians that told me that at first they got scared seeing me in my hat and jacket and then she saw my tzitzis and they knew they were safe
Gabboim, I think she is trying to say that she has seen it for herself as well and that the goyim see it too, and it is the impression that is left with them. She is not basing off just what she heard.
Whats the point of this thread?
Gabboim – you miss the point. It’s not what they said, it’s the fact that they feel the need to say it.
My point was those flight attendants were antisemites plain and simple who will blame Jews regardless of how faultless Jews are. And since in polite company you can’t say Jews, they use euphemisms.
The point is to take a good hard look in the mirror and remember who you represent when you walk out your door. Understand that WE ARE expected to hold ourselves to a higher standard and when we fall below that standard or behave like the lowest form of humans do, it is noticed, really, really noticed.
At one point of time, the conversation turned to different people they had flown with. Not realizing I was jewish, one of them told a story that happened when she was flying the JFK-TLV route. It involved someone mistakenly taking her personal sandwich. After telling over the story, her comments were: “but I wasn’t surprised. That’s how they all are” and “served him right that it wasn’t kosher, he shouldn’t have grabbed without asking.” and other comments like that.
what is her sandwich doing with all the other sandwiches, and secondly no-one would take “a sandwich” if they have glatt kosher and “regular” kosher, especially if it was a goyeshe airline where they might serve treif too
I wouldn’t be suprised that she’s not an anti-semite but a frei yid who has a construed approach to chareidim based on common chiloni synacism
mbachur, “I wouldn’t be suprised that she’s not an anti-semite but a frei yid who has a construed approach to chareidim based on common chiloni synacism”
Just look around at the Midos of people who are obviously frum. Some peoples Midos are truly impeccable. Some are terribly embarassing, and there’s way too many of the latter, and that should not be ignored, especially when people are “in uniform”.
Since there is no possible to’eles that can come out of this thread, don’t you think it would be better to discuss how to be dan l’kaf zchus yidden who do not seem to act as we do? Is it good middos to have threads discussing other people’s bad middos?
Maybe if we didn’t go around thinking ‘bishvil li nivra ha’olam’ we would recognize that it is important to think of yenem’s position and why it might be Ok for him to do what he did.
Perhaps if we recognized that we are the ‘am hanivchar’ we would realize how terrible it is to discuss something bad about another officer of Hashem’s court that was chosen personally by Hashem.
toeles one: we should take this to heart and remember always Who we represent, and that we are always being judged, above but also below.
toeles two: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/disturbing-story-on-plane?view=all#post-190811
I am in complete agreement that as frum Jews we must be extremely careful at all times as to what impression our actions are making. The point about upstate is unfortunately a very important example.
However, this story makes no sense to be involving a frum Jew. No frum Jew would randomly take a sandwich on an airplane without checking for double wrapping, a hechsher, etc., particularly if it was sitting somewhere and not actually handed out to him. The only explanation I can see (assuming the story is true altogether) is that the sandwich was taken by someone not frum — or even not Jewish — and because it was a flight to Tel Aviv the attendant just blamed it on “those people”. In general many goyim do not differentiate between frum and not frum Jews, and certainly most do not try to hard to be “dan lkaf zchus” on any Jews. . .
However, this story makes no sense to be involving a frum Jew. No frum Jew would randomly take a sandwich on an airplane without checking for double wrapping, a hechsher, etc., particularly if it was sitting somewhere and not actually handed out to him. The only explanation I can see (assuming the story is true altogether) is that the sandwich was taken by someone not frum — or even not Jewish — and because it was a flight to Tel Aviv the attendant just blamed it on “those people”. In general many goyim do not differentiate between frum and not frum Jews, and certainly most do not try to hard to be “dan lkaf zchus” on any Jews. . .
Exactly what I was trying to point out!
ofcourse – I agree with you – middos, middos – have to be
taught in the home and in school.
I have a different take than everyone else on this.
We are really on a much higher level than the nations in regard to middos, etc. Look at the divorce rate of the world and compare that with ours. The Germans were also very proper and mannerly. The difference here is that the goyim are more in tune with social graces and mannerisms than we are. But if you compre them with us in circumstances that really show the person, eg: someone in your family or office gets on your nerves or provokes your anger, they do not compare with us at all. (not to say we are perfect – we always have what to work on..) In todays society it is rare to find a goy who has real values and morals.
This is not to say that we should not be aware of this issue and be carefull how we act in public, but the way it is being portrayed here is wrong.
Once again, look at who is getting so upset by the very idea that frum Jews should have middos.
World saver:
1000% and very well said!
I used to work at a day camp in Brooklyn. I once played a joke on the camp director a month before camp started. I called him up and pretended to be from the Parks Department. I said that their permit for the local park would be denied this summer because neighbors complained that the kids made a huge mess, and dumped their garbage all over the street by the park. He didn’t deny it, he just said, “They’re kids, what do you expect?”
The yeshivos are not teaching kids to have respect for non-Jews. They just say “We’re better than them.” and nothing more. Yes, Jews are better, but that doesn’t mean you can treat them like dirt! Derech Eretz kodma l’Torah. It’s time to teach our kids to respect everyone, whether they’re like you or not.
MBachur- which calendar do you go by, Yom kippur in 4 months?
I’ve had situations like this before. What I usually respond with is; “true, there are some obnoxious, selfish, nasty people among us.
But can you honestly say, you’ve never encountered a polite, considerate, resepectful Jew? And would’nt you say, the nice ones far outnumber the nasty ones?
They rarely answer, but then again, I don’t expect one. I don’t need to convince them. I need to convince myself.
Can we stand some improvement? Sure.
Are we head and shoulders above the bulk of society? Absolutely!
but they will never remember the nice ones, the negative ones will always stick in their memory this is human nature
You are correct. Which brings to mind one of my favorite mishnas in Pirke Avos (I hope I’m quoting it verbatim):
“Da ma l’hashiv l’apikoros”; know what to answer the non-believer.
Not necessarily answer them. Just know the answer, so you can re-affirm your own belief and faith in Yiddisheit
Feif Un your post reminded me of an incident last year that caused a tremendous chillul Hashem. I was in a park upstate with my kids and a huge group of girs around 4 or 5 busloads came by. They made a bbq for all the girls for lunch. I cant even begin to tell you what the park looked like when they left. Not only did they not clean ANYTHING up, they left burning grills all over the place. If you use the excuse that “they’re kids what do you expect”, what about the counselors? What about the head counselors? What kind of upbringing are we giving our children?? How can we expect them to be mentchen when they grow up if we dont teach them the correct way when they’re young?
Do you know whats even more disturbing?
In this Coffee Room, a member has written Loshen Hara about Yidden, above. He has written above a description of the evil report on Yidden, which he got from a WORD REMOVED working for an airline.
Yet the moderators deleted my message to the OP in which I gave him a heavy dose of mussar about his comment. It was bad that he came away from listening to WORD REMOVED speaking negatively about his own people and didn’t even have what to answer them, or defend us. Then, he rather comes to a ‘supposedly’ frum website to ask his fellow commentors what we think about our rude reputation amongst air line hosts.
There was no apology or editing done to censor the OP’s report, on the Moderators part.
The fact is that this is a public website on-line. This conversation/thread is not exclusively private for only the frum community or Jewish people to contend with. Non Jews can read these threads, and derive conclusions from our own speaking derogatorily on our own selves.
The public can form judgments and form futher convictions they may have already held against Jews.
As with any derogatory statments and anti semetic opinions, my fundamental question to the dedicated Moderators is why would they delete a thread titled “Jews and Racisim” which I created last week, and I asked a basic question. Why are we discriminatory against “ WORD REMOVED “? I brought up a fundamental point about the socio-economic barrier and class distinction in this question.
However, I am surprised that you let the above thread pass which is a bad rap on Yidden. It is not even a question posed in order to quench an innocent ignorance. This thread posted by the OP is obviously loshen hara without a constructive purpose.
If the Moderators saw it fit to remove a post regarding a question about why we jews are racist against blacks, why would they let alone a thread that deals with an evil report, from the mouth of a WORD REMOVED ? And a jew comes to post what they said on yidden in a yeshivish website? You support this?
I think you should remove the word Yeshivish from your website.
Secondly I think you might prefer living in a communist country, where censorship is your kind of thing. Very frequent and used heavily.
Lastly, I am sick of your website by the nature of the selective editing and deleting of topics and comments that do not deserve to be swept under the carpet.
I have no intention of returning.
We will help you leave.
BYE!
P.s- Even if you only read this and delete it, at least ….
“The fact is that this is a public website on-line. This conversation/thread is not exclusively private for only the frum community or Jewish people to contend with. Non Jews can read these threads, and derive conclusions from our own speaking derogatorily on our own selves.”
Exactly. So how did you submit all the words above which were removed by the moderators. Did you think they would make a kiddush hashem?
We must realize that talking about the situation does not make anything better but that we actually need to take steps ourselves to keep this from spreading further. And it is not only goyim that are left feeling this way. I myself am (as I assume are all if not most of you) a frum Jew and was left thinking about this 2 years ago when I was in Miami Beach over Shabbos. It was over NY winter break and everything was packed. A woman was coming out of the grocery store with her hands wrapped around her paper bags. Being a polite southern boy I held the door open for her. She said thank you (looking at me like I was a nut).She continued walking then turned around and asked “Where are you from?” I said “XYZ southern city”. She said “Ohhh…” and kept on walking. She obviously deals with yidden who dont even show they fellow Jew any derech eretz. Thank G-D where I live(it is getting a little larger here and things changing[unfortunately]), all if not most of the Shul, kollel, and dayschool rabbis and parents do a good job impressing upon children how a Jews should conduct themselves.
@real-brisker,derech hamelech, and frumladygit-
I don’t see any problem with saying there is a problem in our community and it needs to be corrected. That is the point of this post. We need to be more self-aware (myself included) that we are being watched at all times and we represent H”KBH. We all need to work on are middos. (Perhaps the next time we order food delivered, we will give a dollar for a tip 🙂
Additionally I don’t think there is any problem with being dan lkaf zchus, because she never said that this story was true, the point is this is what non-jews (or frei yidden who it is infinitely more important to make a kiddush hashem to), have such an impression of us. That is the situation. Now, what can we do about it. What she saw herself, she saw herself.
In fact, I think this post has quite possibly more of a toeles than any other thread.
Derech Hamelech must be a Calvinist. They believe that the world is under the sole rule of Satan. With his kind of twisted worldview, that’s the only “Melech” who I see this guy following.
Well said Derech HaMelech.
Years ago – my husband and I traveled to E”Y right before Rosh Chodesh Ellul. As you can imagine the flight was packed with frum people. When it was time to daven shacharis – there was a line by the bathroom for people to wash negel vaaser – and I guess it was too long for some people to wait – so they just started taking water from the galley and washing their hands right onto the floor. It was such a Chillul Hashem. I was mortified. Then sitting next to us was a man making Aliya with his wife and 9 kids. The kids were running up and down the aisles. When we were approaching the airport – the sterwardess asked the man to please make sure his kids were sitting down and strapped in. He told them ‘At home they are my responsibility but on the plane they are your responsibility – you get them to sit down if you can!’ In my entire life I was never so embarresed to be frum. The stewardesses were talking very negatively about the people on the flight – and you know – they were right about what they said.
We are constantly taught that we are Am Hanivchar – but that doesn’t mean that we should walk around feeling that we are better than everybody else and act like we expect them to recognize it. Yes Hashem chose us – but we are supposed to be a light unto the world – in Middos and in Torah. We have an extra responsibility to make a Kiddush Hashem wherever we go and B”H a lot of us do – but many of us fall short.
I think that when people are from a small town and have more exposure to non-frum people they tend to understand that they are just like us – people whom we have to respect and act nicely to.
When people are from a large frum community and very insolated – they tend to demonize the non-frum and non jews – and this breeds negative behaviour towards them.
We have to be careful to teach our children that just because a person is not frum or not jewish – does not mean that they are trash. I am not talking about just talking nice to them – I am talking about teaching our children to recognize and respect their good qualities. There is good to be learned from most people – we just have to look for it and recognize it.
I feel that a lot of people today don’t have empathy for people who are not like themselves – and I understand that this might be a holocaust mentality – which is understandable – but it’s time to change that.
insolated
I hope you mean isolated
def insolation-exposure to the suns rays
he probably meant insulated.
maidel u are right on the money
aposhitermaidel -It was before R”H, they hadn’t done any aveiros yet the whole year, so they had to Chap Araiyn to have something to do teshuva on. As bad as it was to open a mouth to the stewardess about his 9 kids, he definitely is a Sharfer Yid!
“koshe lohem oilim lejisroel , kesapachas”
Lets do Kiddish HaShem by being a light to the nations by our interactions with them. There is no greater Mitvah than this and the opposite has no greater sin!
Every parent should have a Mussar or Chasidos sefer on the Shabbos table and learn something from it each meal with the family.
Teaching midos and honesty is our prime responsibity as parents.
This also applies towards non Jews because of Hilu HaShem and so that we don’t train our souls to sin. Hilu HaShem is one of the worst sins and there is no atonement for it.
We are role models to our family and they learn by our actions, the way we talk and interact with other people, Jews as well as non Jews.
We must realize that DISHONESTY will not bring any blessing to ourselves, our children and family.
Thanks Poppa – I did mean insulated – typing fast and did not proofread!
Tzvi…while it is a good idea to have a musar sefer on the table – I believe the second part of your statement is even more important – to show our children from our actions how to treat others.
When you talk about your cleaning lady as the ‘shiksa’ or the ‘goyta’ instead of referring to her by her name – you imply disrespect – that she is not worthy of being called by her name due to her ‘lower status’. Treat others as you would like to be treated.
Whenever we took vacation – we paid our babysitter/cleaning lady for the week we were not there.
Friends were always so shocked – and I said – hey I am getting paid on my vacation – why shouldn’t she be paid.
My mother once worked with a lovely non jewish lady who was down on her luck – lost her job – lost her home. My parents welcomed her into the home for a few weeks until she could get back on her feet. It made my father a bit uncomfortable – but that did not stop them from doing chessed.
We had an open home to many frum people – and this was just an extension of what we constantly saw. We were taught to always treat others as we would want to be treated.
Now that I have my own home I see the pressures of keeping it open to others and respect my parents even more.
When our children are told stories about the evil Poretz – it makes them think that all the Goyim are evil.
Let’s face facts – of course I know that there is anti semitism around but B”H we don’t live in Europe – either pre-war or even now. There is no Poretz oppressing us and stealing from us in the U.S. – or E”Y.
We live in a wonderful country that has opened its borders and hearts to us – let us pay them back with Hakoras Hatov to all – and with Kiddush Hashem – not only because treating others is a Mitzvah – but because it should be natural to us to act nicely – that is what we should aspire to.
As has been said previously in this thread – we should be a light unto the nations!
We are the chosen nation of Hashem – let us strive to be the chosen nation of the world as well through our actions.
I still think the story of the OP was contrived. Too many holes. Reminds me the joke said by the Yarmer Rav, Rav Yankel Miller, about making up stories. Better left for the joke thread.
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