Disturbing thing I saw

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  • #611847

    WIY
    Member

    I was shopping in the supermarket and I saw a frum woman had her baby (maybe 3-5 month old) in the wagon it was the top part so she had him lying across the width. What bothered me is that she had a lot of stuff in the wagon it was really full so she put some lighter stuff ON THE BABY. I was shocked. Is this how you treat a human being?! I wanted to say something but controlled myself. I was just really pained by it. Am I oversensitive or do you agree this is wrong?

    #999967

    WIY
    Member

    Anyone?

    #999968

    TheGoq
    Participant

    What would you have said and in what tone?

    #999969

    apushatayid
    Participant

    that was an american girl doll, not a baby.

    #999970

    I don’t think there’s really a problem with putting a soft roll of tissues on top ob a baby.

    #999971

    WIY
    Member

    Goq

    Good point. I dont know it would have been snide probably.

    LF

    It was food items. Nosh also…

    #999972

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It is a problem when the baby is in a shopping cart. If I was the cashier, I would weigh the baby and buy it.

    #999973

    WIY
    Member

    Goq

    It didnt help that I saw that she was also being neglectful when the baby started crying. Looking at yogurt is more important than a crying baby.

    #999974

    I know. It’s just that sometimes things can get overwhelming, and Mommy needs to improvise a bit. Just sayin’ (Hey, I do those sort of things too, gonna arrest me? or worse, scream at me?)

    #999975

    WIY
    Member

    The baby shouldnt be in the cart in the first place.

    #999976

    SaysMe
    Member

    wiy- picking your yogurt when your baby starts crying is not neglectful. If the baby was in pain or had been screaming for 5 min yes, but an infant doesnt have to be picked up the minute he starts crying.

    If the baby could have been hurt by what was put around/on him, then it would upset me. If the baby was in a big puffy snowsuit and she put a bag of lollies on him, nope doesnt bother me. Not that i would personally do it. But i have put light groceries next to a baby sitting in the stroller

    #999977

    WIY
    Member

    SaysMe

    Next to isn’t on. In a busy supermarket when the kid starts screaming I also think it is proper to attend to the baby right away.

    #999978

    apushatayid
    Participant

    so, thats what it’s about.. its about you not wanting to hear a screaming baby while shopping. well, get used to it if you are going to spend your times in frum neighborhoods and shop in those stores.

    #999979

    SaysMe
    Member

    wiy- to let the baby scream in a busy supermarket: improper up to debate for parenting experts, neglectful not though

    #999980

    WIY
    Member

    apushatayid

    Its about the baby and how some people treat theirs.

    #999981

    golfer
    Participant

    Letting a baby cry at the supermarket?-

    Could happen, depends on the circumstances, not the end of the world.

    Some babies hate to shop even more than my husband and are not shy about (loudly) expressing their disapproval.

    Leaving a baby laying in the top part of the shopping cart?-

    Very very bad idea.

    Not safe.

    With nosh on top of her?-

    Worse idea.

    Neglectful, is the kindest thing I can think of saying.

    What would I say?-

    Maybe something like, “Excuse me, do you think that’s safe?”

    And I would probably get a shrug or a dirty look in return.

    Unless the mother was in middle of texting, in which case I’d just be ignored.

    #999982

    Nechomah
    Participant

    When you say that she had a 3-5 month old baby in the top of the cart, I assume that it was in the car seat. Then you say that the baby shouldn’t be in the cart in the first place. Where do you propose that she put the baby? Leave the baby at home (which includes paying for a baby sitter during the time she’s shopping)? In the stroller that has the car seat attachment? Have you ever tried pushing two shopping carts through the store? You could be in the store for an extra half hour, during which time I’m sure that baby would be at the end of his/her patience and needing a diaper change/feeding/etc, and would let you know his/her displeasure very loudly. A woman with a small baby has limited energy (since she’s probably been up half the previous night dealing with said baby), limited time (since said baby is going to need to be fed/changed probably in an hour or so, and has limited monetary resources so they want to get the best deals they can in the shortest amount of time possible.

    WIY, I’m surprised at you. It’s obvious that you’re not married since you express yourself this way. Yes, it is very commendable that you are worrying about the way this woman is treating her baby, but have you considered the other factors involved in shopping with a little one? I assume that the baby is strapped into the car seat, but unfortunately the tops of shopping carts rarely fit a car seat in a way that is very secure or maybe she hadn’t learned how to hook it on properly. If she had put the baby in the bottom of the shopping cart, then she for sure would not have had space to put the rest of the groceries in the cart, if you’ve already said that there was stuff on top of the baby but you didn’t say that the rest of the cart was empty. If she’s buying nosh, which this baby obviously can’t enjoy yet, she probably has a few other kids at home, at least one, and you should be grateful that she did not bring the whole load with her so that you would have enjoyed hearing them all screaming “Buy me this mommy”, you get the point.

    I think being married and having children requires people to be able to see situations from the other person’s point of view. What bothered you about this situation has plenty of room to be dan le’kav zechus for the mother, but I don’t hear you doing that. I hope you won’t be like this when you get married.

    #999983

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Putting some light items on the baby’s lap gives the baby something to look at or play with. Since there seems to be no danger and no discomfort to the child, and since there seems to be a plus for the baby, too, I see no problem with this.

    #999984

    RR44
    Participant

    Once jokingly a cashier to weigh one of my kids, but we agreed that he was priceless.

    #999985

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WIY,

    I was shopping in the supermarket and I saw a frum woman

    Would your reaction had been the same if she weren’t Jewish?

    had her baby (maybe 3-5 month old) in the wagon it was the top part so she had him lying across the width.

    In a carrier?

    What bothered me is that she had a lot of stuff in the wagon it was really full so she put some lighter stuff ON THE BABY. I was shocked.

    There’s not enough information for me to share your shock. Was the food directly on top of baby, or by his/her feet? What was the baby’s reaction? Was s/he distressed? Played with the food? Asleep?

    Is this how you treat a human being?!

    I put things on my lap all of the time. If the baby wasn’t bothered, was it such a big deal? Were you concerned about safety, or the baby’s dignity?

    Am I oversensitive or do you agree this is wrong?

    Not enough information to answer.

    #999986

    interjection
    Participant

    I took my baby shopping yesterday. I put her car seat in the big part of the cart and placed all the things around her car seat. She was 100% safe. I made sure nothing could have fallen on her but I’m sure people thought like you did.

    #999987

    WIY
    Member

    TO CLARIFY

    The baby was not in any seat just lying across the width of the top small section of the shopping cart (now that I think of it its probably not so safe either.)

    She put stuff on the baby (directly on the baby not next to) who happened to be awake because she had no room in the overflowing cart that she had already filled up. I dont think the baby was distressed by the weight of it I really have no way of knowing that but I think its degrading to a human and specifically your own child to treat them this way. I expect more from any mother but definitely a Jewish mother should respect the dignity of her child. Maybe some people don’t look at babies as humans and therefore don’t take their dignity into consideration.

    #999988

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WIY,

    The baby was not in any seat just lying across the width of the top small section of the shopping cart

    That does sound strange to me. Was the baby lying on a blanket or something at least?

    #999989

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    WIY, if you were really so concerned did you offer to help the mother with all her groceries?

    One time I was in the local frum grocery and there was a small baby in a wagon sitting alone. Nobody was with the baby and it was soon after the unfortunate Leiby incident. So I waited with the baby until the mother came back. I told her it was not safe what she did and pointed out that she took her pocketbook with her but did not take her baby. She agreed with me.

    #999990

    miritchka
    Member

    WIY: First thought that came to mind as i read your original post was ignoring abuse is abuse. Not that this is abuse, but it should definitely be brought to her attention. I would probably say something along the lines of “it might look safe to keep a baby there, but the holes for the legs are too wide to protect the baby from falling out. Can i push your wagon while you hold your baby?” She’d either take you up on your offer or get the hint..

    Little Froggie: nothing should be placed on a baby. a roll of toilet paper isnt an exception. Thats like saying that leaving a baby in a bathtub with less than inch of water is ok. As a mommy of an under a year baby, I can agree that we all do things that could land us in hot water if DSS or CPS saw. But putting an infant in a situation that they cannot help themselves in is neglectful and selfish of the mom.

    SaysMe: it doesnt matter how thick the snowsuit is, plastic should NEVER EVER be put near or on a child/baby/infant!

    Nechomah: The OP wrote “top part so she hadhim lying across the width”, I would assume that means just what it says, that the infant was in the wagon itself. I’m not going to say that i dont do it, but car seats clicked onto the shopping cart arent as safe either, unless the mom is holding onto and facing the wagon the entire time. (“If she’s buying nosh, which this baby obviously can’t enjoy yet, she probably has a few other kids at home, at least one, and you should be grateful that she did not bring the whole load with her so that you would have enjoyed hearing them all screaming” Should be thought not said out loud..)I dont know how you could put someone else down, the way you are going on and on about if the child is in a car seat, where the car seat is, if there are other children, how loud the children would be, etc… According to your own words, it would make sense that you arent a parent either “I think being married and having children requires people to be able to see situations from the other person’s point of view.” The OP seems to be disturbed about how a mother may have put her baby in a dangerous situation and if (s)he was wrong feeling this way.

    HaKatan: The OP mentioned that the “baby” was 3-5 months old. I dont think thats old enough to enjoy playing with groceries and if the infant was laying down in the wagon, definitely not safe…

    interjection: lol! Actually many people woudlnt think that way if they saw you with your baby that way! I was in a store with a woman who also had her baby in the car seat in the back part of the wagon with groceries all around and asked to take a picture!! Its actually quite safe as the groceries stabilize the car seat from falling back and forth and the wagon prevents baby from falling out!

    #999991

    Trust 789
    Member

    WIY: I can understand you being concerned about the child’s safety. I don’t think it’s safe to put a baby into the wagon that way even without anything being place on top of him/her.

    But the child’s dignity? Oh please! It wouldn’t matter what age the child was. There is nothing degrading about a mother putting an item on top of him/her. I see nothing at all wrong with that. I’m an adult and if my mother did that to me, I would only be glad to help. And an infant who can’t even realize? Sorry, I can’t imagine how you think it’s degrading.

    #999992

    WIY
    Member

    Avram in MD

    Baby was wearing a coat or snowsuit type of thing. Probably not all that comfy hence the crying…

    Trust

    Your baby or older child is not your property. If the child is too young to be asked permission then don’t do it. A baby is a person! Your children don’t belong to you as a possession.

    #999993

    Trust 789
    Member

    WIY: My child does belong to me. That does not mean I can treat them improperly ch’v. But if I wanted my minor child to hold something and old enough to understand, I will tell him to hold it. I do not need his permission. If he will say no, I will punish him for not listening to me, unless he had a good reason to not want to hold it. I cannot imagine what this world would be like if we needed our children’s permission to want and make them do something. It would be chaos. And imagine that! Needing permission from an infant!

    I have seen a lot of your posts. They usually make sense. This does not.

    #999994

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WIY,

    I still don’t feel comfortable judging her because there’s no way for me to know all of the circumstances. What you describe though does sound unsafe and uncomfortable, and shouldn’t be done.

    If the child is too young to be asked permission then don’t do it.

    This reasoning is being used to attack bris milah all over the Western world.

    #999995

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Lets call a spade a spade. This is about nothing except WIYs ears and his/her desire not to hear the kid.

    #999996

    WIY
    Member

    trust

    Theres a difference between asking someone to hold something and using their body as a receptacle for your paper goods and nosh!

    Avram in MD

    The difference is that when Hashem tells you to do something to your child you don’t have to ask. But technically they are correct you cant do what you want to your child. Its not your possession.

    #999997

    Trust 789
    Member

    I don’t see a difference between getting my 5 year old son to use his body to hold something and placing something on his body (so long as it’s safe) while he’s sleeping because I need the space, even if I’m not getting his permission to do so. In my view, the notion that I need his permission is absurd.

    The difference is that when Hashem tells you to do something to your child you don’t have to ask. But technically they are correct you cant do what you want to your child. Its not your possession.

    I disagree. We do what is beneficial for the child because they are our responsibility. You take your infant for shots because it benefits the child. They must go to school (or home schooled) because it’s the parent’s responsibility to make sure they are educated. We don’t need the child’s permission. And yes, sometimes we use our children for our benefit, like getting a kid to hold something for us, or placing an item on them. So long as it’s safe.

    #999998

    Ken Zayn
    Member

    You are all correct.

    WIY is correct to be disturbed when he saw what he saw. It is a sign of a rachamon which is a siman of a yid to have pity on a strangers child. I’m sure he would have felt the same had it been a non jewish baby.

    The posters sympathetic to the mother are also correct. What could she have done? She has been blessed with a baby and had nowhere else to put it. Would she have done this to the baby of a relative she was looking after for the day? Of course not. It is only because she feels restricted and inhibited by the pressure of having to run a house while on low energy and deprived of sleep and on top of all to be unable to go anywhere without having to shlep the baby with that led her to act in this way.

    So who or what is at fault? Boy am I gonna open a can of worms now but this is truly what I feel and it makes me mad.

    It is one of several faults in our frum system that pressures us into having large families that only the most capable and geshikt people can cope yet the rest of us do it too with that allows senarios such as this.

    It is also a fault of the same system when very young children, probably of the same families as in WIY’s opening post, are seen walking several of their even younger siblings to school and back crossing busy roads etc.

    It is also a fault of the same system where many young men who are not cut out to sit in yeshiva and learn gemara all day long are not advised to go study to gain the qualifications that could help them with parnasah in later life but are kept in yeshiva and then kolel and then when their kids grow up and they cant afford school yeshiva and seminary fees for them and cannot put money away for their weddings they have nowhere to turn.

    Where are the next generation of frum professionals coming from?The local hachnosas kalahs worldwide are in crisis. Never before have there been such demands on their limited finances. More and more of us are turning to them for help with our ever growing families to ask for financial assistance. More and more of our local mosdos are fighting to keep afloat financially also, with less and less gevirim around for them to seek help from.

    When oh when is there going to be a serious kehillah wide approach to find solutions for these and other similar issues?

    #999999

    oomis
    Participant

    I don’t need to know the circumstances. Shopping carts are not meant for the safety of an infant. The part the baby was put into, is an especially not safe place for an infant of that age. A baby that cannot sit up more or less by him/herself should not ever be placed in a ahopping cart in that fashion. If the baby is put into the wagon part, he or she should be in a car seat. BUCKLED in.

    Please do not cry to me about the poor tired mommy who was up all night (really – at 3-5 months most babies are sleeping pretty well at night). But even if not – I WAS that poor, tired mommy, several times over, and I never did what was described here. Either one gets a sitter, or waits for another adult to either do the shopping or take one shopping and push a stroller, or carry the baby in a Bjorn or Snugli carrier, as I did with my infants. NEVER put even soft items on top of an infant who is in a small confined space. And if a baby is crying, for Heaven’s sake TAKE CARE OF THE BABY! This is not rocket science.

    #1000000

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It could be that you don’t view the mother as human.

    #1000001

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Ken Zayn – I am so sorry that that is what Judaism looks like to you. Maybe you should move! And to try to connect all that seriously depressing outlook into this lady in the store is so sad.

    WIY – I have placed my babies safely in the cart as you described, but only after making sure 100% that they were safe. Any scenario you would like to construct to argue that does not apply, as I would not have placed them there if they were not safe. I also would not have walked away from the cart, nor would I have placed things ON him, though I am certain I put things around their legs. While I feel you may or may not be wrong in your judgement, I consider it a tremendous maaleh that you are so caring for an infant.

    And yes, Haleivi, many here don’t consider the mother’s human. In the CR there are many who see mothers as mindless baby machines who obviously had too many children because it never occured to them to do otherwise, not because they wanted to contribute to klal Yisroel or build a bayis neeman. If you know individuals suffering otherwise, get them help, but stop calling it a hashkofik issue!

    #1000002

    golfer
    Participant

    Thanks, oomis.

    I was also unhappy at the thought of putting a baby in such an unsafe position.

    I was not successful in getting the message across in my post.

    But your post makes it perfectly clear.

    No surprise there, as your subtitle is obviously not just a figment of someone’s imagination.

    You probably didn’t do a half bad job as a Mommy (Ima?) either.

    #1000003

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    golfer – I agree with you and Oomis but I am not understanding how this set up isn’t safe. It is much safer than perching a car seat on top of a bar on a cart facing 4 feet of nothingness. I must be visualizing something very different than you are.

    #1000004

    oomis
    Participant

    golfer – I agree with you and Oomis but I am not understanding how this set up isn’t safe. It is much safer than perching a car seat on top of a bar on a cart facing 4 feet of nothingness. I must be visualizing something very different than you are. “

    Golfer, thank you very much for your very kind words in the other post. And yes, I am Ema to my kids.

    SYAG: of COURSE you don’t put the car seat across the top! It can ONLY fit inside the wagon (which is what I did at times, with my child’s snowsuit unzipped,the hat and mittens off, and facing me, so the baby could see me, if he or she was awake. But they never went into the front raised seat part until they were old enough to sit upright without sliding sideways. I also brought along a safety harness when I went shopping, to strap them in securely, once they did sit up front. All it takes is ONE SECOND for a child to maneuver the body enough to fall out, while the mom is chatting with a friend, ro reading a food label.

    I tried very hard to avoid having to go shopping with my babies altogether. That is not avoidable for many parents, so it really is best if they either go together and one carries (or strolls with) or stays in the car with the baby, or stays home while the other parent shops. I didn’t drive for a long time, so my husband and I went together, and he took the baby in the stroller or I used the Snugli carrier.

    I understand how hard it is, but I see dumb things being done all the time by parents. I’ve seen babies in their strollers left alone outside a store, 18 month old infants walking alone blocks from their home, because no one was watching them, kids allowed to stand up in the backseat of the moving family car (this was before the car seat and seatbelt laws were in effect), parents feeding 2 year olds hot dogs and popcorn or whole grapes. You get the picture. Parents do a lot of foolish and sometimes potentially deadly things with their babies. And nebbich, sometimes the babies pay the price for their parents’ actions. I daven for Hashem to protect ALL children from the consequences of such careless and reckless behavior.

    #1000005

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Oomis – the car seat is actually made to clip onto the upper part of the shopping cart. I didn’t feel safe doing that though, I didn’t like the distance from the floor. I also don’t like seeing kids spend hours in their carseats, moving from place to place but never actually being moved. It is very unhealthy but because they keep changing environments the parents don’t always realize they have been stuck in one position for so long.

    P.S. nice to meet another Ema, most are Imas.

    #1000006

    SaysMe
    Member

    i think some posters are visualizing ‘the top part’ of the shopping cart as the place for toddlers to tosit with their feet hanging forward out, and some as the upper half level of the 2 levelled shopping carts…

    Miritchka- i didnt mean that. I meant that even if someone were worried abt the object on the baby poking the baby’s stomach or legs because of a corner, the puffy snowsuit would prevent that. You are right the lolly example was a bad one because of plastic.

    Trust789- +1!!!!

    And i think the permission/dignity thing is going too far. You dont ask your child whether he’d like a needle, or if he wants to brush his teeth. Or in this case, if the screaming child was 4 and you are of the opinion that such a child should be taken out of the store, do you ask him to follow you, or pick him up and walk out? You do not need your child’s permission to give him a chore (at least not under 8 for the liberal-minded), and yes as a parent, you can give appropriate punishment/consequences. It’s not dignifying to change a child’s dirty diaper or spilled on shirt either.

    Ken zayn- you are blaming the system for pushing mothers to have ‘too many’ children which you say causes them to act improperly from exhaustion etc as you see applicable in this scenario. One key point missing though: from what we knoe, this mother only has one child.

    #1000007

    reba
    Member

    I think we should stop judging others and look at ourselves ONLY. If we see something we don’t like either offer to help or GO AWAY. We are very comfortable drawing conclusions without knowing the facts. We don’t need to know the facts we need to MIND OUR OWN BUSINESSES and concentrate on doing mitzvos and helping others. Criticism of others is wrong, counter productive and drags our middos down.

    #1000008

    Ash
    Participant

    The only correct response is offer to help the poor overloaded woman, who has to manage a baby and cartful of groceries somehow single-handedly.

    This has nothing to do with family size, I don’t think WIY said there was 10 babies in the cart.

    Next time, just offer to push her stuff to the checkout so she can hold the baby.

    #1000009

    notasheep
    Member

    I’m a bit confused. Do the supermarkets in America not have infant seats on them already? Or an attachment to fix a car seat securely onto it?

    However, lying a baby across the child seat in the trolley is not safe.

    On the other hand, it is not a realistic expectation for the mother to go shopping without the baby. I have a toddler and an infant, and there is no way I can go shopping without them, since my husband works. I do local grocery shops with them, and do my big supermarket shopping online instead. So as Ash said, maybe just offer to help out instead of criticising.

    #1000010

    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis – the car seat is actually made to clip onto the upper part of the shopping cart. I didn’t feel safe doing that though, I didn’t like the distance from the floor. I also don’t like seeing kids spend hours in their carseats, moving from place to place but never actually being moved. It is very unhealthy but because they keep changing environments the parents don’t always realize they have been stuck in one position for so long.

    P.S. nice to meet another Ema, most are Imas. “

    I agree, it’s not safe, or a particularly good idea altogether.

    And ditto on the “Ema” part. My five year old greanddaughter started to refer to me as Ema when she was two, because that’s what she heard her mother calling me. I kept correcting her and saying, “Bubby,” but she was insistent on saying Ema. After a gazillion times of my saying Bubby to her her, she looked at me with a mischievous twinkle in her eye and said, “BubbyEMA!” We both broke out laughing, and she only called me Bubby after that. She KNEW exactly what she was doing!

    As to this whole issue of helping the mother: to be fair, shoppers are there to shop. It is not always practical or even possible to stop what you are doing to help another shopper who should have used better sense to begin with. If help CAN be offered, it absolutely should be, but it is not always something that can be done (maybe you have your own children or grandchildren with you). And what if there are more than the one overloaded shopper with babies in tow? Are we supposed to drop everything and do their shopping or cart-pushing for ALL of them? That is neither practical nor reasonable. And what’s worse, I would end up feeling GUILTY for not helping (when I couldn’t), even though that too, would be unfair and unreasonable, because it is not in our control.

    In this one specific instance perhaps help could have been offered, but in the final analysis, some women need a better plan for shopping excursions, that do not include putting their infants in this type of situation. There is ALWAYS another way to handle the shopping issue, unless the woman is a single mom with no friends or family members to help. If she has an able-bodied husband, then it is his responsibility to either do the shopping when he has a break, or watch the baby while the wife shops.

    #1000011

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    I was actually just reading an article that recommended this position, with a blanket underneath him/her. This position lets the mother keep an eye on the baby better than inside the wagon, and doesn’t have the safety issues of the car seat clicked on top. Yes, babywearing is ideal for shopping. I don’t know why though, but for some reason it’s looked at as strange in some communities. You might have found it weird to see the baby in a sling as well.

    #1000012

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Because of the association with backpacks and pockets.

    #1000013

    oomis
    Participant

    I was actually just reading an article that recommended this position”

    Not with a three to five month old infant. Sorry. Anyone who recommended that is misguided, IMO.

    #1000014

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    oomis, not to argue the point, but I am still not sure what you are visualizing. A 3-5 month old baby wrapped in a blanket can lay down snuggly in this space with walls on ALL sides coming up a good 6 inches around him and space on all sides. Whether you would place him there or not, I am not sure what about it seems so misguided.

    #1000015

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Baby-wearing is allowed for all babies that mothers should be bringing with them to the store.

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