Divorce – a different view

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  • #595566

    Feif Un
    Participant

    On the thread about the Gila story, someone wrote “Divorce is a dirty word.” I have to disagree.

    Divorce exists in Judaism for a reason. It can be a mitzvah. An entire masechta is dedicated to it. In many cases, a divorce is necessary. Here’s an example:

    Unfortunately, there are people who are abusive towards their spouses. Let’s say there’s a woman whose husband beats her. Would you say her getting divorced is a terrible thing? Of course not! For her, it’s a fantastic thing!

    Divorce on its own is not bad. Divorce for the right reasons is a great thing. Only divorce for the wrong reasons is bad.

    #763012

    Grandmaster
    Member

    Not to directly compare, but it can also be a mitzvah to execute someone. Being a mitzvah doesn’t necessarily entail it being something fantastic.

    #763014

    Correct. Divorce for the right reason is permitted, and a Parsha in the Torah, meant to be used, not abused.

    The reality is though, that the vast majority of divorces are unnecessary, especially when children are involved.

    It has to be important enough for the Mizbeach to cry (for the husband).

    It has to be worthwhile that even if she remarries, it can never ever have the depth and satisfaction that a first marriage can have (for the wife, since she’s not “koreth brith” to a second husband)

    Kids suffer terribly

    It’s serious business.

    #763015

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    Feif Un…

    You are correct that “Only divorce for the wrong reasons is bad.”

    The problem IS that, more and more frequently, it IS done for the wrong reasons.

    #763016

    smartcookie
    Member

    Are we really gonna go through this again?

    #763017

    oomis
    Participant

    “It has to be worthwhile that even if she remarries, it can never ever have the depth and satisfaction that a first marriage can have (for the wife, since she’s not “koreth brith” to a second husband) “

    Seriously? I think you exaggerate when you say, “never ever have the depth…” Clearly if the couple is divorcing, there is a basic LACK of depth or satisfaction at least on one spouse’s part.

    I have seen MANY people whose second marriages not only had greater depth and joy than the first one even remotely gave them, but even in the case of one who was widowed of a HAPPY marriage, that the second marriage brought them at least as much and sometimes more simcha.

    #763018

    goldenkint
    Member

    evryone has opinions but when people are suffering its best to be quiet . the Torah allows divorce for a reason. and while it is always sad sometimes it is very necessary. lets respect others and not discuss their personal business. whoever isn’t a party to their marriage shouldn’t have an opinion.

    #763019

    midwesterner
    Participant

    There is also a masechta in Shas called Temurah

    #763020

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t know how anyone would ever know that a specific divorce was done for the wrong reasons, or that any divorces ever are done for the wrong reasons.

    Just what reasons would be wrong anyway? Presumably, people only divorce when they are not happy together. I can’t think of any better reason.

    #763021

    Seriously? I think you exaggerate when you say, “never ever have the depth…” Clearly if the couple is divorcing, there is a basic LACK of depth or satisfaction at least on one spouse’s part.

    It’s not an exaggeration. I said can = potential. “Ain isha koreth brith ela l’baalah horishona”.

    #763022

    popa_bar_abba:

    We’re not judging those who’ve already divorced, or any specific divorce. We’re discussing those who are married. Everyone should be aware, that despite what Western culture teaches us, divorce aint so full of bliss.

    Do you disagree?

    I posted a link a couple of weeks ago on a relevant thread, that was deleted (I guess because of the link?) to an article that appeared in the JP. The writer claimed that fifty percent of those who go for marriage counseling get divorced.

    I would Assume that many married couples never go for counseling. Based upon this assumption, many people who get divorced never even bothered to try and save their marriage through counseling!

    What does that say, the divorces were absolutely necessary?

    #763023

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Just what reasons would be wrong anyway? Presumably, people only divorce when they are not happy together. I can’t think of any better reason.

    Not being happy together is NOT a valid reason to get divorced. It’s a reason to work on being happy together, including getting outside help. Not being able to be happy together even after putting in the fullest effort to might be a good reason, but for many, unfortunately, the reason is not inability, rather, unwillingness. And even if we can’t always judge whether or not a couple put in their fullest effort, sometimes we can.

    #763024

    s2021
    Member

    divorce rox

    #763025

    Health
    Participant

    “whoever isn’t a party to their marriage shouldn’t have an opinion.”

    So true! In my case, a few people convinced my wife to divorce me. I’m almost 100% sure that it would have never happenned without them.

    #763026

    Shrek
    Member

    no one ever knows what exactly is going on in someone else’s marriage. just because you think a marriage could have been preserved does not make it so. even when you are IN the marriage, you may be clueless as to how your spouse really thinks or feels.

    #763027

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Truth,

    The Gemara mentions the Mizbe’ach crying for her.

    #763028

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Popa,

    I’m sure you know the Gemara’s example of the wrong reason.

    #763029

    HaLeiVi:

    Google tells me its in Gitten 90B. The loshon seems to suggest him. That would be the difference between “aishes neurov”. I may be wrong

    #763030

    Health
    Participant

    ” even when you are IN the marriage, you may be clueless as to how your spouse really thinks or feels.”

    This could be in the marriage, but once one decides to get divorced, believe you me, the spouse knows exactly how the other thinks and feels!

    #763031

    mdd
    Member

    This discussion is ridiculous — there are ofene Gemoros as to when a divorce is appropriate and when it is not. And the Gemora is not as machmir as some of the very frum fellows here wish it did.

    #763032

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Truth,

    Learn through the whole thing. You should notice that the Gemara finishes off with the Pasuk saying, “Why is this? Because of the bride of your youth that you betrayed.”

    When it says, it cries “on him”, it means about him, about his actions.

    #763033

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why do people assume it is the standards of divorce which changed? Maybe it is marriage which changed.

    #763034

    Rebyid40
    Member

    Not being happy together is NOT a valid reason to get divorced. It’s a reason to work on being happy together, including getting outside help. Not being able to be happy together even after putting in the fullest effort to might be a good reason, but for many, unfortunately, the reason is not inability, rather, unwillingness…

    I must strenuously disagree with the above statement. 1. There are many couples who are willing to work. On trying to get along but whose personalities are just so different that they cannot work out their differences.

    2. I cannot fathom why somone would think that its beneficial for children to grow up in an envronment of stress and discord.

    3. Why do both parties have to be miserable for 50-f0 years?? If they both remarry they can have many happy years together wih their new spouses…

    #763035

    s2021
    Member

    daas- I like what u said up untill the last part.. I dont think anyone can EVER judge. Nor should they.

    I think ppl should stop being so “concerned” about others. Its not genuine. Work on ur luv for neigbors by saying thank you. Stop judging and mind ur own business.

    #763036

    rebdoniel
    Member

    What differentiates Judaism from Catholicism is that things like divorce, and r”l, abortion, are viewed by Judaism as evils which are sometimes necessary. Now, divorce and abortion are nowhere near each other in terms of severity, as the latter involves the taking of a life, but our Torah is certainly not pro-divorce. It is written that the Mizbeach weeps when there is a divorce, but sometimes, when there are the utmost extentuating circumstances, divorce can be necessary, such as where there is abuse, fraud, psychological harm, etc. Likewise, while abortion is viewed as akin to murder, it is necessary under the most extentuating circumstances, i.e. when the mother will die from the pregnancy. This is the crucial difference between the two faiths- ours is a faith that is 100% committed to human life and the integrity of the family, but nonetheless releases that there can be cases where these become necessary evils.

    #763037

    HaLeiVi: it means about him, about his actions

    You are very sweet. What is it I said? Where is the disagreement?

    #763038

    Why do people assume it is the standards of divorce which changed? Maybe it is marriage which changed.

    Does it make sense for people to consider divorce without ever seeking to improve their marriage? Do you disagree with my assumption, or do you think all those who do remain married use marriage counselors?

    #763039

    Rebyid40:

    There are many couples who are willing to work. On trying to get along but whose personalities are just so different that they cannot work out their differences.

    So how did they ever get married in the first place? How did they ever have children?

    (I think Rabbi Salamon’s parenting book discusses this idea at legnth)

    I cannot fathom why somone would think that its beneficial for children to grow up in an envronment of stress and discord.

    And what exactly is divorced life for the kids, stress-free and harmonious? Think again. Especially based upon so many divorces in our community with ugly custody battles. The kids are used as pawns.

    (Whenever I see undeniably disgusting behaviors during the divorce process, I do become judgmental. I will automatically assume that the party playing the silly games was at fault for the dissolution of the marriage. And when both sides do it, I judge them both for being at fault. If we would all do it, maybe divorces would be more civil.)

    Why do both parties have to be miserable for 50-f0 years?? If they both remarry they can have many happy years together wih their new spouses…

    “Can” and reality don’t match on this one. The exact numbers have been cited here several times. Second marriages have huge increase in divorce rate from first marriages.

    So unless there is truly a compelling reason, its more probable for that second time to fail. The grass aint greener on the other side.

    #763040

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    When you say you are crying for A, are you really saying that you feel bad for B that suffered under A? Not in English. The Mizbe’ach is crying for her, because of him.

    I’m not trying to be picky, but I am trying to rectify a misconception that it cries no matter what. When you see the Pasuk and realize that it says for what he did to her, it’s obvious that when it is to her benefit, it could only rejoice.

    #763041

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    Ainodmilvado says:

    ‘The problem IS that, more and more frequently, it IS done for the wrong reasons. ‘

    Who died and left YOU to decide whats considered right or wrong?

    Its a mitzvah for a man to divorce his wife if thats what she really wants. I know an unfortunate case where a man dragged his wife for 5 yrs just to torment her.

    Whatever the case, I heard a shiur from a famed speaker who thought that infidelity is not a reason to break up a family! Acoording to her, anything else less than physical abuse was not grounds for divorce when you have kids.

    Then there are ‘shono rishono’ cases where Rabonim unfortunately write very quickly.

    Every Bais Din has there own way of handling a situation like this, but there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong reasons.

    #763042

    Grandmaster
    Member

    Its a mitzvah for a man to divorce his wife if thats what she really wants.

    That is not necessarily so. The Torah has guidelines when she can demand one and when she cannot demand one. She cannot simply demand one “if thats what she really wants”, but it is not one of the Torah’s guidelines to so demand.

    #763043

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    When a divorce is finalized, we say “Mazal tov!”

    Why is divorce more common nowadays? I believe that women used to be more likely trapped in bad marriages. They were limited in career options and being a single mom had HUGE stigma attached if they could even pay the bills. Abuse was not really discussed. Many women (and less often men) were trapped in their marriage.

    Most of the divorces I know were for good, valid reasons.

    Many 2nd marriages fail because the person remarrying didn’t address the issues with the first marriage. Those issues don’t go away overnight.

    #763044

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    Grandmaster,

    I am alluding in cases where the guidlines are met.

    #763045

    Grandmaster
    Member

    Whatever the case, I heard a shiur from a famed speaker who thought that infidelity is not a reason to break up a family!

    The Rebbetzin is 100% correct. It may be considered in pop culture and in the gentile world the utmost reason for her to demand a divorce, and that idea unfortunately may have seeped in to some quarters, but that doesn’t make it the case.

    #763046

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Well, I guess it depends on which one. It might actually be a Chiyuv.

    #763047

    Grandmaster
    Member

    I did specify which one in my comment. I’m sure the Rebbetzin was referring to same. Obviously the other direction is a chiyuv, like you said.

    #763048

    HaLeiVi: Please translate the Gemora here. The Gemora does not say that the Mizbeach is crying for her. Not at all.

    My point was, this consideration is one that a man must take into account. A woman should take really contemplate the other Gemora, about her being unable to be “koreth brith”.

    #763049

    SJSinNYC:

    Most of the divorces I know were for good, valid reasons.

    Many 2nd marriages fail because the person remarrying didn’t address the issues with the first marriage. Those issues don’t go away overnight.

    I don’t get it. If the divorces were for good valid reasons, that means that that woman (usually were trapped, as you put it- or man..) did not do any wrong in their marriage. It was the “other’ spouse. They had nothing to improve, other than finding Mr./Ms. Perfect.

    And if they need to address it in order to make the second marriage work, why not address it prior to the divorce and make the first marriage work?

    #763050

    Ralphie
    Member

    If people would work on their marriage, they wouldn’t have to worry about divorce.

    #763051

    I read in Rav Ezriel Taubers book on marriage that a spouse becomes like a limb. When you would cut it off if it was a limb, you should get divorced.

    #763052

    s2021
    Member

    Ralph- thats true as long as by people we mean both partners of the marriage.

    #763053

    oomis
    Participant

    Sometimes the ONLY answer is a divorce. No one should be made to feel stigmatized that they got out of a bad marriage. Nor should they be forced to remain in that marriage. Many quickie divorces would not happen, if the couple knew what they were realistically getting into when they became engaged. Too many girls today romanticize the idea of marriage, especially when their husbands will be learning fulltime for a time. Then they become very disillusioned and resent their men for not providing for them (as the Kesuvah mandates them to). Instead of feeling they can work on saving the marriage, they opt out. We live in a very disposable society, apparently.

    #763054

    s2021: Very true. Both have to work on the marriage. A woman placing a husband reading a bok for women, and showing his wife what she is doing wrong, won’t work. A woman placing a shalom bais article in their husbands sidur, won’t work.

    Each has to improve themselves. (Of course spouses should seek the spirtual best for thei spouse, but out of care and love of the spouse.

    #763055

    aries2756
    Participant

    Divorce is a sad commentary any way you look at it, but sometimes it is a necessary evil that heals rather than destroys. Sometimes it is the marriage that is destructive and the divorce that rebuilds.

    My philosophy is “Make you marriage work for the sake of the kids, if there is no way you can, then make your divorce work for the sake of the kids”.

    #763056

    oomis1105:

    You’ve said this many times, it’s the kolel people who are the cause of divorce. Time and again. So please, why do MO people get divorced (I heard a speech from a principal in a MO machmir school, he said about 20% of his student body were from divorced homes)? Are all these divorces truly the only answer?

    Why don’t kolel people have this divorce rate (though they do have a divorce rate that seems way too high)

    #763057

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    If couple spent as much time thinking about what their MARRIAGE will, realistically, be like, as they do thinking about what they want their WEDDING to be like…

    We would have many fewer divorces!

    #763058

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Truth be told,

    Some people aren’t compatible together. Some people bring out the best in each other, some people bring out the worst in each other. And yes, sometimes one spouse is totally at fault for the divorce.

    But marriages have baggage. Good marriages, bad marriages. If you don’t fix any problems, you may have more issues.

    I don’t know if I’m being clear at the moment.

    #763059

    SJSinNYC: No, don’t understand how what you wroteyesterday adds up. If people are meant to be married (as the creation of man and woman makes clear), then why is there a higher divorce rate for second marriages higher than for fist marriages, if the half or even the majority of divorcees are faultless? The divorce rate should drop in half, not become higher.

    #763060

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    I think one of the BIGGEST problems is, simply, that people are not really honest with each other before they get married.

    Possibly not honest about many issues, but most importantly about what their own true hashkafas ARE. What they really ARE, not what they are SUPPOSED to be, or SHOULD be, what they ARE.

    They “fake” their hashkafas (maybe even to themselves) to be what they think are what people want to hear.

    Why? Because they want to GET married.

    They don’t stop to think what the ramifications of this deception will be when they ARE married.

    BIG, BIG, BIG mistake.

    #763061

    Health
    Participant

    OOmis – “Then they become very disillusioned and resent their men for not providing for them (as the Kesuvah mandates them to).”

    This does sometimes make for bad marriages or divorce in the yeshiva world. A person should be mature enough to know what it means when they say “I want a learning guy”. Also, just because your hubby isn’t doing the right thing acc. to you because he isn’t supporting the family, who gave you the right not to work?

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. In America right now most couples are forced to work to provide for their families, why are Frum Jews different?

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