July 19, 2011 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #598084elikParticipant
another day and I hear of another divorce of a young married couple with two kids that I know..
is it me or this is out of control?? I have heard of at least ten cases in the last few months! whats going on??
is it money issues?/ getting married to young?? not getting outside help??July 19, 2011 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1200025shlishiMember
Because they’ve become desensitized to divorce when the entire secular culture is throwing marriage away and has a greater than 50% divorce rate.
Also, from what I’ve seen the couples that get married in their teens (18, 19) tend to have the longest lasting marriages. Perhaps they’re not coming into the marriage with the preconceived secular corrupting notions.July 19, 2011 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #1200026
I agree that the ones that get married older have a harder adjustment- I think they come in to a marriage hoping that a wife will “fit in” with their already “made” lives and they are less willing to change their little world that they built for themselves.
Just heard about a girl my age- young girl married for 2-3 months who’s pregnant and got divorced. she married her next door neighbor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!July 19, 2011 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1200027gavra_at_workParticipant
I agree with Shlishi, but will add that the “preconceived secular corrupting notions” are in many cases learned from seminary.
If we would all follow Rav Miller ZTL and have the husband be the king and breadwinner, we would Bezras Hashem see the divorce rate drop. Its when the wife is the main earner, and tells/nags the husband “But I learned in sem….” that the relationship fails.July 19, 2011 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1200028haifagirlParticipant
It’s because they’re inviting other couples for a meal. 🙂July 19, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1200029ToiParticipant
AgreedJuly 19, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1200030
There is a bigger mitzva to remarry ur divorcee then to get married in the first place.
RS”A Please help them get back together again!!!July 19, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1200031gavra_at_workParticipant
It’s because they’re inviting other couples for a meal. 🙂
I wish I had thought of that!July 19, 2011 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1200032YatzmichMember
People need to be more patient. Patience is what kept my marriage together during a very rough & tumble period. And now we’re both happier than when we first met. Sometimes you need to take a deep breath and relax.July 19, 2011 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1200034apushatayidParticipant
And wearing bumblebee costumes.
Seriously though, many guys and gals who I know that are on the cusp of dating really have no concept of what marriage is. Many of the guys seem to believe it is simply continuing learning in yeshiva with the same chavrusa and same chevra, only now instead of his father paying tuition is is covered by his shver and meals comes from the wife instead of the yeshiva dining room. Many of the gals seem to believe that nothing significantly will change either. They will still go to class at the local degree mill or touro or still go to work and instead of going home to their parents they will go home to a new roomate called “my husband”.July 19, 2011 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1200035ToiParticipant
You mean thats not marriage?July 19, 2011 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1200036
Based solely on my own personal experience and anecdotal evidence that I come across, it seems that the first year of marriage is often the hardest. It certainly was for me.
Keeping in mind that Eeees and I weren’t strangers when we got married (we dated/were engaged for a total of three years), I can tell you that we fought more in the first year of our marriage than we did in the next nineteen combined.
Fortunately, even though we were young when we got married, we were both mature enough to understand that despite the fights that we were having, we both wanted to be married to each other and therefore, we worked at our marriage. B”H by the time the first anniversary rolled around, we managed to “break each other in” and have been very happy ever since.
Can some of the couples who divorce make a go at it if they were more concerned toward each other? Certainly. But on the other hand, there are certainly cases where one party puts on a good face during dating and then reveals themselves to be a monster only after the wedding is completed.
The WolfJuly 19, 2011 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1200037yentingyentaParticipant
adorable: i think i know the girl you mentioned-a class mate of mine. you think you are shocked? when i found out, i was almost crying! i danced at her chassunah and 5 months later, THIS? and dont think she got divorced cuz its unfortunately the “in” thing to do these days. she was not one to follow the crowd. IY”H, everything will work out for her, and all the other young divorcees. H’ yaazorJuly 19, 2011 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1200038aries2756Participant
I believe couples are more interested about getting married than being married. The emphasis is on the wedding and NOT on the marriage. And that is both for the girl and the boy. They are not looking for the right qualities in their future spouse. Basically they are not really looking for anything but surface concepts. Just because a boy is a good learner that does not mean he is a mentch or will make a good husband. Just because a girl is a size 2 or has wealthy parents that doesn’t mean she will be a good wife or a good mother. She will probably expect her husband to treat her the way her father did.
Today’s shidduch scene focuses on superficial nonsense. And yes we live in a disposable world and maybe it is too easy to get a divorce and go back to Mommy. Especially because Mommy and Daddy are paying for everything anyway. And when they do pay, they also in many cases have an opinion and interfere between the couple. Many divorces happen because of parental interference. Many divorces happen because the shidduch wasn’t a shidduch to begin with. Many divorces happen because the couple aren’t mature enough to say sorry and try to work out their differences or try to compromise. Many divorces happen because friends and neighbors interfere and instead of saying “yes I hear your point of view but you also have to try to listen and understand your spouse’s point of view. You may both be right in this situation and neither of you are wrong. So where do you go from here? Could you compromise or take turns on having your way?” Instead of egging a person on and telling them they are right and their spouse should respect that.
Many times Rabbonim who are not really involved in Shalom Bayis also give the wrong advise and just quote Halacha without applying it to the situation and also lead a couple to fight more or down the path to divorce.July 20, 2011 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1200039oomisParticipant
Aries nailed it. Totally.July 20, 2011 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1200040welldressed007Participant
Today’s generation is getting married with one foot already out the door. The going gets a little tough and off we go. What happened to old fashioned hard core values, why is there a disconnect. Very simple, Pirkai Avos: Al tihiyu ke’avodim hameshamshim etc. This is called the conditional generation. How about doing just for the sake of, you get something back, fine, gravy :). Give yourself a chance, give your marriage a real chance, you will be happier and the kids ultimately as well. Show some respect for each other, no matter who does what. If you need help to work on/out your marriage, this is as important and saying a brocho, or any other mitzva, get the help before you on that path of self destruct, look how many people you are going to drag through the mud with you.July 20, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1200041tikvuchkaMember
I have a bit of a different view.
I recently got married. I have a baby and one on the way, and my husband is in school. No one is supporting us, its just us. Things are hard. I was not told that life after marriage is hard. I was never told that even if you have a good marriage partner and things are going well with your relationship, that its still hard. I dont think the typical B”Y girl is taught this and then she may blame her husband. I learned that its not his fault. I learned that he grew up in a different family then I did and learned to speak to him in a way he can handle
But most of all I learned that its hard because its hard and thats it. IM”H one day it will get easier but this being hard, its not his fault. and if I fight with him, it wont get easier.July 20, 2011 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1200043
I would also add that people are more in love with the idea of being married, then actually being in love with the one they are marrying… I also think that people are afraid to be the last one if their friends to get married and thus force things along, when perhaps they shouldn’t have…
although i knew after the first date I was going to marry my wife, I waited just under a full year before asking her to marry me… While a long courtship may not be right for some, it allowed me to make sure it was 100% right…and now after 2 kids, mortgage, and a dog, things are better than ever…July 20, 2011 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1200044love a yidMember
yeah !AriesJuly 20, 2011 4:37 am at 4:37 am #1200045HealthParticipant
adorable -“I agree that the ones that get married older have a harder adjustment- I think they come in to a marriage hoping that a wife will “fit in” with their already “made” lives and they are less willing to change their little world that they built for themselves.”
You are so mistaken, but it’s really not your fault because this is what people say. People are two -faced. They tell you one thing and do another. For a successful marriage each one has to give 95% to end up 50 – 50, no matter how old either one is. There are some marriages were one controls the other totally. Some people are fine with this, some (male or female) are too weak to make any changes. But this isn’t the way marriage was meant to be.July 20, 2011 5:00 am at 5:00 am #1200047
You should ask a snails if a marriage begun in such a wrong way should be allowed to continue.
I should ask snails? Or did you mean a sha’aila?
I’m not asking a sha’aila if I’m permitted to remain married to my wife.
The WolfJuly 20, 2011 5:29 am at 5:29 am #1200048OyVeyzmerMember
maybe divorce is rampant because people who shouldnt be getting married in the first place, are getting married.
The first step in a solution is to be completely honest when people are asking around for information with shidduchim. Don’t hold back, be honest and tell them what you know.July 20, 2011 5:46 am at 5:46 am #1200049shlishiMember
Everyone’s mechuyiv to get married. As far as information, you must always ask a shaila before giving any negative information.July 20, 2011 6:01 am at 6:01 am #1200050mamashtakahMember
Who told you that you’re allowed to date for three years?
Who told you you’re allowed to use the internet?July 20, 2011 7:24 am at 7:24 am #1200051kapustaParticipant
aries: very well said.
mikahall: also well said. Welcome back.
mosherose: Thanks for the laughJuly 20, 2011 8:30 am at 8:30 am #1200052RavKahaneTzadakMember
Chassanim and Kallos must be told that there is no way out of a marriage. Men go into a marriage thinking “if this one doesnt work out I’ll just find another”.
I know too many people with this mindset and it destroyed their marriages.
Another problem is that young couples are too embarrased or scared to go for help, or they think that what they are going through is fine, until it blows up in their faces. The chosson and kalla teachers must explain to them that its the right thing to do and you’ll be happier.July 20, 2011 11:24 am at 11:24 am #1200053jmj613Participant
i agree with tikvuchka. noone has told me how hard itll be and bichlal i believe many boys and also girls have no clue how to handle a spouse. There is no perfect. Theres only hard work 24/7. That i can say from my own experience and were 11years on the way and went thru alot. if something goes wrong take help. nothing to be ashamed of.July 20, 2011 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1200054GetzelParticipant
What about nasty in laws mixing in to their children’s marriages? unfortunately i have heard to many such cases that in laws killed marriages.July 20, 2011 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1200055anon for thisParticipant
mosherose, were you posting from an iphone?July 20, 2011 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1200056
I’m telling u , If we tried we can get some back together!July 20, 2011 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1200057July 20, 2011 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1200058harosParticipant
oyveyzmer said it best: there is a lack of honest info being given-especially in the charedi world where the length of dating is 3-10 dates. theres no chance to get to learn about the person, rather just to gather info. if something “seems” wrong, its easy to shrug off and say ” i dont know the person yet so ill give the benefit of the doubt”. then, once you do see how the person has issues, and already engaged or married, you do your best to make it work. when it doesnt work, result is divorce. ive seen this happen time after time.July 20, 2011 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1200059bombmaniacParticipant
lol first of all, from what i can tell by talking to divorced people, the younger you get married the more likely it is youll divorce. you have two immature little kids (pardon me for saying that about 18 year olds, but until recently i was 18 :D) playing marriage…just doesnt work. maybe in the olden days…but not today. niskatnu hadoros…we take longer to mature.
also…half the time the man and woman arent marrying each other, their marrying their in-laws’ wallet.
also it really doesnt help that girls get married as juniors or seniors…seriously?! when i was in high school i was an idiot! still am 😛 but thats beside the point! high school kids cant marry…thats just ridiculous.July 20, 2011 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1200060mosheroseMember
Wolf if your afraid to ask a shaila then it’s only because your afraid of what the answer will be. A true Ben Torah is never afraid to ask a shaila.July 20, 2011 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1200061newsreaderParticipant
I beleive that it is partly the parents fault, since they should know if their child is mature enough to get married. Nowadays boys could be 19 and girls 17 and they get married and they have no idea what marriage is. It’s very hard to keep a marriage alive when you have no idea that there will be arguments and it gets hard but you sit and work things out. Someone once told me after I got married, that if there is no arguments between me and my wife our marriage is in crisis. It’s part of marriage, to work things out, and a child doesn’t understand that. May the Rbs”o help us and the newlyweds in keeping marriages together and building a bn”by.July 20, 2011 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1200062
Rabbosai,It’s nobodys fault!!!
We all gotta work to get everyone back together!!!!!July 20, 2011 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1200063
Health- I wasn’t saying that its the way it should be but i think people come in hoping to get something out of marriage but then the minute they dont get it they are out. I think they have to realize that marriage is going to mean being flexible and making changes in the life that you built for yourself.July 20, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1200064ShvartzberryMember
We need to educate our children before they get married.A child raised in a broken home or a home were mom and dad fight will most likely end up in the same mess as there parents.Before my wife and i got married we went to a marriage counselor to discuss some issues that were getting us both concerned. BH the counselor had taught us how to deal with them. The majority of young couples are stubborn and quite frankly stupid. I know of 3 couples that are going through a divorce with children involved. **ATTENTION YOUNG MARRIED COUPLES** DON’T BE AFRAID TO GO TO A COUNSELOR OR A RAV FOR GUIDANCE YOU CANNOT MAKE THESE RELATIONSHIP DECISIONS ON YOUR OWN. Marriage is not about winning or being smarter then your spouse its a team for life.July 20, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1200065HealthParticipant
adorable -“I wasn’t saying that its the way it should be but i think people come in hoping to get something out of marriage but then the minute they dont get it they are out.”
Perhaps there are some like this, but not many. Most are like me and work and work until it ends. I tried for 18 years and I would still have kept trying, but her “friends” and family pushed her to leave.July 20, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1200066
Health- someone that I know told me that he worked and worked and tried everything to make it work but eventually it was time to get out. she was becoming more and more frei while he was having heartache trying to save himself and his 3 daughters. Eventually he left but doesnt want to get remarried because he built a life for himself already and just cant imagine starting all over and having to accommodate to a wife’s schedule….yes he misses the good of marriage but hes happy now. I know another single guy who doesnt either want to get married- same reasonJuly 20, 2011 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1200067Another nameParticipant
Each situation is different. There is no reason to blame any specific party. Just respect and be supportive to anyone who had to go through such a difficult nisayon!July 21, 2011 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1200068aries2756Participant
I guess one of the true problems is that people ARE waiting to get something OUT of the marriage when they are really supposed to be PUTTING into the marriage!!!! If both partners are giving 100% then both partners are getting 100% and no one loses. It becomes a problem when one gives more than the other or either or both are expecting to get and stop concentrating on giving.July 21, 2011 5:16 am at 5:16 am #1200069chanasaraMember
shalom task force now offers an engaged couples workshop to deal with this issue of people getting married without really knowing what they are getting into. they cover issues such as finances, inlaws, communication etc. they offer the sessions in groups or privately (one couple). they have haskamos from rabbonim across the spectrum. if you know anyone engaged or even recently married…pass on this info!July 21, 2011 6:10 am at 6:10 am #1200071Another nameParticipant
aries, that is definitely a big problem, but on its own it usually doesn’t lead to a divorce…It most probably will exacerbate the situation!July 21, 2011 6:16 am at 6:16 am #1200072☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I guess one of the true problems is that people ARE waiting to get something OUT of the marriage when they are really supposed to be PUTTING into the marriage!!!!
That’s probably the biggest issue.
All suggestions that the unfortunately high divorce rate is due to issues unique in the frum world (parental support for kollel, not meeting enough times, pressure to marry by a certain age, etc.) would have to demonstrate that the divorce rate is higher in the circles which practice these ideas than in the circles which don’t, for these theories to hold any water. I don’t believe, though, that the divorce rate for kollel couples, for example, is any higher than for non-kollel couples.July 21, 2011 6:22 am at 6:22 am #1200073Ragachovers AssistantMember
Regarding what IUsebrains wrote: There is a bigger mitzva to remarry your divorcee then to get married in the first place.
There is the following story. A man comes to the Rabbi to get divorced. He hands the “Get” to his wife, and immediately thereafter calls out “Harei At Mekudeshes Li”. The Rabbi turns around to him and says, “Are you crazy?” The man says, no “absolutely not”, it’s just that for a “Zivug Sheini” she is OK.July 21, 2011 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1200074Working on itParticipant
Aries – Both of your points are excellent. I still recall how my wife (we were just dating then) would tell me about so and so and how they were engaged and what kind of ring/stone they got and how so many of her friends were getting engaged. There is certainly something of a herd mentality involved. People approach marriage as something “everyone else is doing”, even if they don’t admit it. It looked to me (I know I may be wrong) that people get excited with the idea of having an engagement party and then an ofruf and a wedding and sheva brachos and to see all of their friends show up and be happy for THEM, not to mention the presents – who doesn’t like presents. The problem is that once the lights go out at the last sheva brachos, and sometimes even before that, the excitement wears off and you now have to deal with reality. Suddenly you have to start doing your own dishes and laundry and you have all kinds of bills, and maybe you don’t have all that much money to spare… That is when the bond of marriage is forged. It is a time when couples need to learn to lean on each other for support and get through it together. The problem is that many times each person turns to their mommy or daddy instead. Unfortunately, the parents often do more harm than good. Instead of encouraging the couple to work through the problem, many lay blame on the son/daughter in law and plant seeds of discontent in the mind of their child.
The other problem I see is that there is too much pressure on young people to get married. These days I hear all the time something like “…and she is already almost 20 and not even engaged yet…” This constant pressure by the community to hurry up and marry is simply ridiculous. As if a girl is worthless/hopeless or worse, something is wrong with her, if she is not engaged right out of HS or Sem. How often have I heard “Nu, they went out on 3 dates already, what is taking so long? They need to decide yes or no”. Well, maybe 3 dates is no longer enough to decide. Maybe people need to back off and allow the couple more more time to see if they’re compatible. We live in complicated times. We have a role reversal in the home that is changing the dynamics of marriage – but we are not changing with it nor educating people how to deal with it.
I believe that the divorce crisis is in large part due to a combination of these factors. Coupled with the “disposable” mentality we now live with, it is easy to see why people are so quick to let go when the going gets tough.July 21, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1200075
Wolf if your afraid to ask a shaila then it’s only because your afraid of what the answer will be. A true Ben Torah is never afraid to ask a shaila.
Why don’t you ask your Rav if you’re allowed to sneeze on Tuesdays between 4:17 and 6:32? What? You’re afraid to ask your Rav a sha’aila? A *true* Ben Torah would NEVER be afraid to ask a sha’aila.
Yeah, right. As I thought. That’s why I’m not asking my Rav if I’m allowed to remain married to my wife.
The WolfJuly 21, 2011 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1200076
We all gotta work to get everyone back together!!!!!
Everyone? Surely you don’t mean that.
The WolfJuly 21, 2011 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1200077☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Working on it,
For your theory to be correct, you would have to demonstrate that people who live in a culture with pressure to marry young have a higher divorce rate than those who don’t. I don’t think that’s the case.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.