Divorce Crisis

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  • #697341
    Yanky55
    Member

    bh18-

    Thank you for your sentiments. I am so sorry that you had to endure that type of abuse. I hear YOUR pain as well.

    I know I did the right thing; I had no choice. The children have told me they know I was being verbally abused. (My oldest asked me what took me so long to get out?)

    I know you are 100% right on all the points you make. And yet….

    Let us hope that the coming year will bring only smachot for you, me and all of Klal Yisrael.

    #697342
    dylon
    Member

    did anyone ever notice that there are more divorces in atwerp than in any other jewish community?

    #697343
    eclipse
    Member

    ARIES…i like what you wrote,in particular that a person deserves to be respected”in the way they need to be respected”.The Torah tells us to give tzedakah to a rich man who lost his money even to the point of a horse and runners(or something like that).I also want to explain that a t’mimusdige girl who turns to her husband’s rebbeim/roshei yeshiva/SOME rabbonim)is often not taken seriously.Here are just 3 of countless examples:

    1.”HE RAISED HIS FIST,BUT DID HE ACTUALLY HIT YOU?NO?…ALL MEN GET ANGRY LIKE THAT”

    2.”HOTLINES?….ARE YOU THIN?”(over phone obviously)

    3.”HE’S TRYING HIS BEST!””HE LAUGHS AT YOU CAUSE IT’S A NERVOUS HABIT””YOUR HUSBAND IS A TZADIK”v’choolay,v’choolay

    #697344
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    SJSinNYC-

    Like I said- some may not apply to you.

    The instance I had in mind (I posted this on another thread once) was after a horrible date I just drove all the way down the belt until I had enough, turned around and came home. I felt the need to be by myself for a long time without telling anyone where I was going. My parents thought the date went great since I was out so long until my father notice the mileage on his car the next morning and I told him what happened.

    I hope you’ll agree with me that a married person can’t just disappear for a few hours- without telling anyone- when they feel they need it. (You mentioned that you tell your husband and he understands.)

    #697345
    so right
    Member

    Why is it that mother’s almost always are granted custody of children (regardless of age)? Is it an offshoot of goyishe society where they do that? And maybe since even some frum people resort to the goyishe courts the mothers end up with custody?

    #697346
    eclipse
    Member

    SO RIGHT:if you would only know what many women are put through in court these days.Angry, expensive-lawyered husbands are advised to say the wife is crazy,abusive,unfaithful(you name it).Husbands that were never home and wouldn’t babysit for 5 minutes so the wife could get out are suddenly demanding full custody of an entire family…JUST TO HURT THE WOMAN.While the burden of proof should be on the accuser,the woman is instead busy trying to prove that all the stories are made up,or gross distortions of kernel events…

    #697347
    so right
    Member

    eclipse, my point really was that I don’t think from a secular point of view one gender should have automatic or assumed preference for custody. and for religious reasons, custody should be adjudicated based on jewish law, not goyish.

    #697348
    eclipse
    Member

    right,so you should know that the courts are all into equal rights for dads,even when it’s NOT so good for the kids to be bouncing back and forth like ping pong balls,coming home late on school nights,being left alone,watching scary war videos…the men DO have more of a chance in court –worthy or not.

    #697349
    so right
    Member

    eclipse, since you are talking abt the goyishe courts, you are definitly wrong. as a general rule (meaning all things being equal), the BEST dads can hope for is 50/50. the mom can often get full custody, and perhaps usually does. even if all things are equal. (meaning, for example, two parents equally capable to bring up the kids.) as a rule the courts will give preference to the mom. otherwise, IF the dad’s lucky he’ll get 50.

    and if we’re talking about frum ppl, anyways it should be based on the Torah rules not the goyishe court.

    #697351
    eclipse
    Member

    hey,i never asked to be dragged to the secular courts…my significant other refused to go to bais din and served papers.he wanted to hurt me BIG TIME.BUT:since it’s right before yom kippur,i will word this carefully…bais din will listen to a seemingly”choshuve”husband over the wife.with catasrophic results,i might add.so if you have a full beard,payos,and walk around with a sefer in your hand,you will have a great time in bais din.not every bais din falls for the facade…but definitely the majority…who even sanction court if they are told enough baloney stories…

    #697352
    so right
    Member

    eclipse, i am speaking generally, not a/t regarding your situation. the goyishe courts are much more corrupt. whoever has the biggest lawyer got a leg up, nothing to do with truth or justice. plus its assur to go to them. beis din needs to decide halachicly.

    #697353
    eclipse
    Member

    yes, a person who takes someone to court/police unnecessarily is a “moiser”.and corruption in courts is an understatement.the lawyers,law guardians,and yes…the well-bribed and politically connected judges…all corrupt.i will never forget a gentile man who hadn’t seen his baby for an entire year…and the man who was arrested on the spot in court for something really trivial…but a good father should want his kids to be primarily by the mother…for heaven’s sake!

    #697354
    so right
    Member

    “but a good father should want his kids to be primarily by the mother…for heaven’s sake!”

    IF they’re nursing. otherwise, if he can and wishes to care for them he should have at least an equal right for custody in court (goyish). for a yid, it should be based on what halacha says.

    #697355
    eclipse
    Member

    oy…you wore me out.”may the best man win”…

    #697356
    aries2756
    Participant

    Yanky, may I give you a brocha this Yom Tov season?

    May Hashem heal your broken spirit and may this year be a year of brocha, simcha, mazal and hatzlocha for you and your children. May you only “hear” pleasantries and good news, may you only “see” beauty and the hand of Hashem and may you only “speak” words of happiness, good news and contentment. May you smell the “roses” on the road ahead, and may you “touch” the softness and the gentleness of the heart that is waiting to be found and discovered by you. May the joy and simcha that awaits you inspire all those around you to the goodness and graciousness that is Hashem and his creations. May you be zoche to health, arichas yomim, parnasah, nachas from your children and success in all you do.

    #697357
    Yanky55
    Member

    aries-

    You certainly don’t need to ask if you can give me a bracha 🙂

    Your words are beautiful. Amein v’Amein! May HKB”H grant you all the same good wishes!!!!

    Thank you so much and G’mar chasima to you and your family. (And may YWN always be filled with these type of positive postings)

    #697358
    eclipse
    Member

    ok did i make all the men mad…it’s right before yom kippur…got lots to do…hope i’m not on anyone’s hitlist(mee bacherev…)

    #697359
    Yanky55
    Member

    Eclipse-

    You did not get ME mad. My only concern is what is in the best interest of my children. Therefore, they live primarily with their mother and are with me every other Shabbos and twice per week for supper. I live nearby and I am very involved in all aspects of their lives, which I am told by psychologists is the most important factor in ensuring that they will turn out well adjusted. (I am grateful that my ex is on the same page as far as that is concerned).

    B”H this seems to be the case so far….they have very active social lives and are doing well in school….but as Yogi once said “it aint over till it’s over”…..(1/2 lol).

    #697360
    eclipse
    Member

    i’m no mekubal but i was told that being a mensch always pays off somewhere along the road.as far as what people told you about “moving on”…you are a grown-up…and you will sense the right time on your own.okay,this is my last day ..i am giving my computer to a friend tomorrow iy”h…i’ve wasted too much time since I found this cool coffee room.

    #697361
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    eclipse-

    It was nice meeting you.

    Stop by every so often to let us know how you are doing.

    You’re going to be in my prayers over Yom Kippur.

    I hope you’re successful in all your endeavours.

    #697362
    eclipse
    Member

    THANKS!i would daven 4 u but i don’t know if you’re a man,a lady,a doctor,…or a pepper.

    #697363
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    eclipse-

    #697364
    eclipse
    Member

    aha…so you’re a kohen.thanks.i’ll be trying to say the whole ribono shel olam t’fila for dreams fast enough…

    #697365
    emoticon613
    Member

    dr pepper – have me in mind too?

    boy do i need it.

    i guess we all do (to quote yanky – 1/2 lol).

    #697366
    lesschumras
    Participant

    So right,

    So, you’ve never run into a corrupt Beis Din? The daughter of a woman I worked with was going thru a divorce. She was the daughter of a Ger ( not chassid, a convert ) and the husband was from a chasuva Boro Park family. He wasted to pay no child support, have full authority of the son’s education. The beis Din ruled in his favor and allowed him to give a get, and remarry without granting a civil divorce. The husband was then shocked when the wife went to civil cort.

    #697367
    so right
    Member

    lesschumras, that story has too many missing pieces. beis din doesn’t grant or deny civil divorces. so essentially she lost in beis din so she ran to civil court?? that’s the problem so many times. and btw, halachicly the father has the right (and obligation) to decide about his sons education. sounds like the bd did everything correctly. im even surprised they authorized him to give the get before she dropped and undid going against halacha by using the goyishe court.

    #697368
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    eclipse-

    Silly Goose! There’s no singing when yom tov comes out on Shabbos.

    I had you (and emoticon613 and Yanky55) in mind as well. Let me know if you felt anything around 10:30 yesterday morning, and if the bracha comes true this year.

    I wish all of you the best.

    #697369
    myfriend
    Member

    You were finished mussaf and were dichining already 10:30 am Yom Kippur morning?? How’d you mange that feat…

    #697370
    artchill
    Participant

    Rabbi Ginsburg from Minneapolis’s article about Bais Din in the Yom Kippur edition of the American Yated, is a MUST READ.

    #697371
    Yanky55
    Member

    Dr. Pepper-

    Thank you kindly for having me in mind. Unfortunately, all I felt at 10:30 was a headache coming on 🙂

    myfriend-

    Maybe he davened at a vasikin minyan……

    #697372
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    Yanky55-

    You’re correct, I went to the naitz minyan.

    Sorry to hear about your headache, I hope the rest of the day was tolerable.

    #697373
    Moq
    Member

    So much pain. Ouch.

    The road of divorce is terrible. But yes, death by marriage is worse. I have met men who have had their entire souls destroy piece by piece by an evil wife. And alas, have seen destructive husbands tear a good bas yisrael apart.

    Beards, Payos, Hats, Jackets…

    From my little experience – we need to get our heads screwed on straight before marriage. If that means therapy, so be it. Problem is, is that at shidduch age we are all so sensitive about what gets out – and being in therapy would be a certain deal breaker. But often that’s when it’s most necessary.

    Healthy people don’t abuse. Healthy people don’t marry abusers. Yes, there are acception. But that’s the rule. As was said – the red flags are there.

    And it’s on both sides. Broken people abuse. And broken people are charmed by abusers. Heck, abused children will seek out abusers.

    Treat your spouse like a king/queen and your kids will know what to look for – and what to run away from.

    And let us never take our spouses for granted and realize that shalom bayis is not a given, but an avodah. I once was by a wedding of a dear friend. As his Rosh Yeshivah left he leaned over to him and I listened in. “Chaim, Chazal teach us a wife is a ‘grindstone on his neck’ – know two things. One must work! What you feel now will only continue if you work! And secondly – though it is a grindstone – it is made of gold,silver, and the most precious of jewels. Remember that, when it feels like a grindstone”

    He kissed him, and left.

    #697374
    Helpful
    Member

    Moq, therein lies the catch-22. A young bochur or girl who needs therapy prior to marriage is between a rock and a hard place. They can either get the needed therapy – and hence ruin their shidduch prospects (as at that point they cant lie about him/her not getting therapy). OR they can forgo the therapy, and cross their fingers and hope the marriage works out for the best. Many if not most choose the latter, rather than ruin their shidduch prospects.

    #697375
    Moq
    Member

    Yes, and of two things happen –

    if one is a monster, the other gets tortured – either until they kill a part of themselves so they can live with it, or get divorced.

    if both are well meaning good messed up people – THEN they get therapy. much more expensive, complicated and sometimes they still get divorced. especially if they get an idiotic therapist.

    sometimes you get a second chance. sometimes you don’t.

    and a second successful marriage? happens. sometimes. not too often, though.

    #697376
    Helpful
    Member

    Moq, I agree with you. But that doesn’t resolve the catch-22 I described. How will you convince frum society to utilize psychologists and therapists when required for a young single, when they know one result will be greatly reduced shidduch prospects as a result of such therapy?

    The only solution to the above catch-22 I can think of is to have these singles go for therapy but not tell a future shidduch potential (or anyone for that matter) that they had therapy. Effectively to deny it. And rely on doctor-client privilege to keep it under wraps. And then get married when the therapist feels s/he is okay to.

    The alternative to that idea is that the single will skip all therapy, then be able to honestly say they never had therapy, and get married untreated with their mental-health problem unresolved.

    If people will insist they must tell their shidduch they had therapy, the net result will be they wont go for therapy and get married without the needed therapy.

    #697378
    aries2756
    Participant

    Helpful, when someone goes to a Rav for counseling and advice, even if they go for months, do they divulge that a potential mate? Why on earth does someone have to divulge that they went to therapy to help them through a difficult period or a bad time in their lives? Who’s business is that? No one’s business at all.

    Now if the young person choose to speak about the rough patch itself, that is another ballgame and that all depends if that part of their life will have an effect on the couple and their future.

    #697379
    mechel
    Member

    moq wow you so right!

    #697380
    Moq
    Member

    Helpful-

    That I had the answer. I am merely pointing out the reality. An answer? I wish.

    Aries –

    You’re right. Though I draw the line between mental illness and issues. A mental illness – even manageable must be revealed; worked out issues need not. But still, there is a real fear of being found out. Hopefully people will realize that 20% of us are seeing professionals at one or another and that not getting the help you need is far worse.

    I once was involved in pushing such a shidduch through (she found out he had been abused, therapy),- she spoke to his a therapist a number of times, and they agreed to see him together and separately afterwards – and they are happily married.

    #697381
    oomis
    Participant

    There is one solution to the therapy issue. Before ANY child may enter the shidduch parsha, it should be a gezaira that ALL children must be seen by a therapist/counselor/whatever you want to name it, while in high school, as part of their education process. Those who need more therapy can continue to get it, and those who don’t will only speak to the therapist a few times. Thus ALL kids will be in therapy to a certain extent, and the issue will take on less of an ominous status.

    #697382
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa is especially intrigued that in a discussion labeled “divorce crisis”, people are advocating keeping secrets from your proposed spouse.

    Particularly since the area being discussed is one which is highly relevant to who you are and how you behave.

    #697383
    Moq
    Member

    I could see a standardized evaluation for everyone who is shidduch age – entering lakewood/post sem. I see that. That’s not a bad idea. Make it more hemishe, let “evaluations” last a few sessions – I could see that happening.

    I would add higher salaries for masgichim and more psycological training. There are de facto shrinks, and there is no bizayon in seeing them. Same for the sems.

    Throw in divorce penups for everyone ($150/day or half you pro rated salary for every day you don’t show up or adhere to Beis Din), and we’d be on our way to a solution.

    #697384
    Helpful
    Member

    Moq, the prenup you describe has been innovated already by the MO, and rejected by the gedolim shlita.

    #697385
    Moq
    Member

    I know it never took hold, but it was rejected? As I recall, I was under the impression R’ Elyashiv approved (Halachically) the RCA’s prenup alast kfia b’get.

    Why was it rejected? By who? I could see various reasons why, though.

    #697386
    cherrybim
    Participant

    When Rabbi Auman’s daughter married into Chaim Berlin, he insisted on a pre-nup, as is his shita. Rav Aharon Shachter was maskim.

    #697387
    Ben Torah
    Participant

    Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv said the RCA prenup a solution is totally at variance with halachah, and has a similar, if not the same effect as a get me`useh, which will lead to instances of mamzerus.

    #697388
    Moq
    Member

    Hmmm…I didn’t know that. Oh well. Never mind.

    We’ll just to continue chainsawing their legs. But it’s so expensive! And yes, many Poskim don’t like that either.

    Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

    Poppa-

    If the issue is worked, why should a spouse be told? Do we need to tell a potential every piece of baggage, if it’s irrelevant?

    Mental Illness is pretty much always relevant.

    #697389
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Moq:

    If I understand correctly you are distinguishing between “issues” and “mental illness”

    Perhaps you can go through the diagnosis manual and tell us which ones are issues and which are mental illness.

    What is depression?

    Lets say it’s mild?

    What is OCD?

    What is anxiety?

    What is Anorexia? Or Bulimia?

    Besides, I thought you were only suggesting people not tell until after they’re married. You are really suggesting to not tell ever.

    EDITED

    #697390
    myfriend
    Member

    popa, if people are required to advise of therapy for OCD or anxiety to their dates prior to engagement, the net result will be that they will not utilize therapy for their OCD or anxiety, thus avoiding telling their dates anything. Either way they will be not saying anything. But in the latter case, you have the additional aspect that they will marry untreated for their OCD or anxiety issues.

    #697391
    so right
    Member

    This discussion is mute. Because if a person is being treated for these “mild” issues, if they don’t want people (including shidduch prospects) to know, they simply won’t say anything and no one will be the wiser (unless the person acts out his issue in public.)

    If someone sees a therapists for anxiety, and he doesn’t wear his anxiety on his sleeve in the street, no one will know he sees a therapist.

    #697392
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    My friend, who is “requiring” anything?

    There are no rules.

    I’m simply surprised at people who think that hiding one’s issues is a wise way to proceed in marriage.

    Mod: There was nothing wrong with my post. Why don’t you add the word “emotionally” so the meaning is clear.

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