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Divorce is worse than a difficult marriage. And I am not talking about for the children — who clearly benefit from their parents continued union — I speak of the couple themselves. Yes, I would estimate 95% of divorces are criminal and ought to have been avoided. We unfortunately live in a disposal society, when products are built for a short lifespan so the manufacturer can benefit from a new purchase rather than repair what the customer already owns. This cultural malady has extended to human relationships, with all the terrible consequences it has wrought upon society.
And to what end? Does one think by divorcing they will find a better mate? In general, a divorcee will be looking at marrying another divorcee — with all of the baggage from his/her broken marriage. Do you really have any reason to believe that divorcee you will end up marrying, with all his/her issues, will result in a better marriage than your current spouse? That is foolhardy.
Life is difficult. If you have a difficult spouse, make the best of your situation. Try your utmost to make it work. Even if that entails a one-sided effort on your part. But either way, hang in there. Stick it out. Why throw the dice? Would you discard a difficult parent or child if they gave you heartache? Of course not. Treat your spouse the same way, as hard as it may be.
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agreed. of course there are circumstances when divorce is necissary, so no one should judge. However, its important to stay married! r Pam said tht 95 percent of marriages can be salvaged if ppl dont come for help wen theyve reached a breaking point. so if its hard, reach out, and get help. but dont just start talking divorce. r avigdor miller said the word divorce shld never be mentioned in a marriage and is poisen
end of story.
Yes, I would estimate 95% of divorces are criminal
Since divorce is not illegal in any state in the US, I would estimate that 0% of divorces in the US are criminal.
I would also estimate that 73.6% of statistics are completely made up.
On a serious note, there is no iron clad rule here. Sometimes a divorce is better and sometimes staying together is better. Every case is different and no general rules can really be applied.
It should be pointed out that I am frum today because of a divorce. Of course, some people would consider me not frum anyway, but that’s a separate issue.
The Wolf
Trust me, divorce is far better than a bad marriage. In my case there were no children involved (grown and married), but many studies have shown that children will thrive in a calm, single parent family, far more than in a constantly argumentative environment. Children are very intuitive and can sense constant tension in the home.
Not again.
Not again.
Not again.
We went through this topic in depth…
mg: And do you suppose the fighting after the divorce, which often directly involves the children as pawns, will be calmer or less tense for the kids? Studies I have seen (mostly in Europe but I don’t see why it would be much different elsewhere) indicate children of divorced parents generally are more troubled than their counterparts.
…children will thrive in a calm, single parent family, far more than in a constantly argumentative environment…
I agree with this.
but that’s a separate issue.
And this.
While this may true in many circumstances, in my parents’ case, everything you said is false. Me and my siblings are much better off with them having gotten a divorce. It would have been a thousand times worse if they had stayed married. Divorce was the best thing for them and for us. But for other, more “normal” divorce cases, I agree that they sometimes can be salvaged with a little help and guidance.
Shame on you to judge when you are not in the situation. Nebach on the divorce and nebach on the horrible marriage. Neither situation is pretty. Can’t we just end with that?!?
Englishman, just fyi but not all divorces have children.
an: My point was in response to mg’s point of how children are affected. I pointed out to her, that all too often the divorce exacerbates the tensions for the children, with the kids being forced to “take sides” or even worse being used as pawns in court or thereafter between the warring exes.
Englishman, It has alot to do with the mentchlichkeit of both sides. Are they more worried about themselves or the children? But I know some situations where the marriage didn’t work out but b”H the parents tried to take the high road and minimize the damage.
Just a point to ponder, but usually children of divorced are more sensitive. And they also have more clarity on good/bad relationships. (I’m just saying that it’s not “all bad”)
As Judge Judy often says “you must love your children more than you hate each other.”
mg, yeah but sometimes for the sake of the children the divorce is the better possibility. Let me know if you’d like examples.
The problem is that many people don’t go for counciling until they can’t stand to look at each other. That is the equivalent of waiting until a person is bleeding to death before putting on a band-aid. That said, two normal people who want to work it out usually can.
The problem is that many people today don’t qulify as that. These days you hear things such a infidelity and drugs as causes of divorce.
If the home is filled with tension and fighting or if one person is constantly putting the other down, the children are better with a divorce or else you run the risk of the children growing up like their parents and just continuing a bad cycle.
We need Moshiach badly.
Droid – are you married? Have you ever been married? Perhaps your certainty is bred of not knowing how complicated real life can be. True, in real life you don’t have the option of “Game over – play again.” On the other hand, sometimes giving up is the only sensible option. Life is complicated, life can be difficult, life has no easy answers.
droid, it is not as minute as you think. You can’t judge another’s person situation!
“Studies I have seen (mostly in Europe but I don’t see why it would be much different elsewhere) indicate children of divorced parents generally are more troubled than their counterparts.”
Without getting into whether or not the OP is right, do those studies control for children of non-divorced parents, who stayed together amidst constant fighting and tension?
So I guess the Torah mentions divorce as a Lav then.
So I guess the Torah mentions divorce as a Lav then.NO, you get a divorce if there is no lav.
No one said divorce is never viable, just that in most cases it is unnecessarily obtained.
So I guess the Torah mentions divorce as a Lav then.
It doesn’t mention bad marriages as a lav either.
this topic again…
OK here we go.
I have one question for which I would like an answer. For all those who have such definitive and specific information about what could and should be in “the vast majority of cases”, how did you come to this information? Was it from years of experience in the field dealing with dozens or maybe even hundreds of couples and families? If so, please say so, so that what you say can be given the proper credibility. If, however, your statements are merely based on your own thoughts and/or observations of a handful of cases please write with more humility and less definitiveness (read arrogance). (e.g. “In my opinion…, It seems to me…, From the three friends that I’ve watched…, etc.) It can be very off-putting to see someone’s differing opinion stated as fact.
As far as your actual point, I think that many people have a mistaken notion of the effectiveness of therapy. Therapy will not help a person who refuses to see that he/she has a problem and is unwilling to change. From my limited experience, I beleive this to be a great deal of those who lead dysfunctional families. Therefore, to say “they should just go for therapy” is often equivalent to saying “they should just stop being self absorbed, self centered, inconsiderate, animalistic creeps who neglect and abuse their families.
Finally, I will say that I’m pretty sure that if you would spend a couple of days in the shoes of someone who grew up in such a home you might sing a different tune.
“It doesn’t mention bad marriages as a lav either.”
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?? ????? ?? ?? ??? (for parents who don’t take their children away from abusive situations)
Just to list a few that come to mind.
I’ve heard from several gedolei yisroel that most divorces are preventable and should not have happened.
And, yes, the children are the greatest korbonos of divorce. Especially the fighting between the parents after the divorce.
Joe, I see you are very busy and don’t let up.
Droid, I would suggest that when you choose to make such a powerful statement you preface it with “in my opinion”, as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However making such a powerful statement as if you are speaking from personal knowledge when you do NOT have experience or personal knowledge in this situation can be very offensive to those who do. It is impossible to even comprehend what it is like to be in a truly abusive or hateful marriage. Do you even know what its like to be hurt or ignored? Humiliated or degraded in private or in front of your kids? What about treated like a child and have money withheld or so controlled that you have to ask for funds like a child? Or never have anyone to go anywhere with or have a silent home and never have anyone to talk to? What if your friends and/or relatives are not welcome in your home or if you are cut off from them?
No one knows what goes on behind someone else’s closed doors. So no one should make such a strong statement without considering all the issues involved. I am a big believer in realizing your obligations to your children before taking care of your own needs so I do recommend making your marriage “work” for the sake of your kids and if you truly can’t then make your divorce work for the sake of your kids. But I would never tell anyone to stay in a horrible marriage because thats best for the kids. It usually is NOT best for the kids.
Unless you have lived through a divorce, you should not comment. An onlooker has absolutely no idea what goes on behind when the doors of a house are closed. As he child of a divorce(B”H my parents got divorced) I am truly insulted by the pure ignorance and insensitivity of some of these comments.
everyone is right there are cases where divorce is better and cases where staying together is best. from my experience in my marriage so far i am convinced divorce would not have brought us anywhere surely not with the kids. I must say my wife is the driving force behind going to therapy and taking help in general and although we have come nearly to a zero point the only way is up and will be up. therapy is a very good and effective way to solve problems. But first u have to want to seek help and accept it. i wish no couple in this world should come to the stage that divorce will be an option. and i agree(not that he needs my agreement)with rav avigdor miller: the word alone is poisen!! may hashem give us shulem bais and koiach to deal with todays problems
So, Droid, are you saying one should stay with a spouse that abuses them so that the children can stay in an intact marriage. What about those couples who either have done a lot of therapy or have a partner who refuses, we should just allow for it? How would you suggest one implement a one sided change in this case? The kids are far better off with two functional parents where they do not observe fighting or abuse than to learn this as the way to treat their future partners! I would urge people not to judge, especially without seeing what goes on in such homes. With that, an easy and meaningful fast to all, and may Hashem send Masiach quickly!
sometimes divorce is the only solution for the parents but the worst decision for the kids. it is a heartrending decision to know whether to think of ones own wellbeing and life and sacrifice the children for that or to put on an act and suffer in silence for the wellbeing of the kids… and then the question arises what happnens when the kids are grown?
Hashem should help us that those marriages in need of help should be saved!
Droid…until you walk a mile in someone else’s shoes….
One needn’t rachmana litzlan get divorced to know its horrors.
is this thread about which is worse? doesnt make sense to me- each situation is so different how can you judge? none are good- its between bad and worse
Thanks another name, and the rest, you beat me to it.
Droid, you’re just gonna have to establish your bona fides. I haven’t been through it myself but have seen enough people who have that I can’t make such statements.
And last time I checked – and please correct me if I’m wrong, folks – we’re not Catholic. Yes, the mizbeach weeps, yes it’s absolutely painful, but B”H it’s there as a halachically valid option.
Gedolei Yisroel have been crying against divorces for many many years now.
Gedolei Yisroel cry against many things. Unfortunately we’re in galus, there are many many challenges that we face (divorce being one of the more common ones). That doesn’t make divorce a BAD thing. What’s bad is that a spouse causes the marriage to be such a horrible gehinom that the only option is divorce. You should feel bad for people experiencing these tzaros- not make them feel worse like some of the comments in this thread might manage to do.
The point here is that divorce is NOT the only option, even though all too many times it is the only option pursued.
Shlishi, when all you see is the end result, the divorce, how can you assume that you know all the options that were pursued prior to that?
Steadily married men — those who remained in long-term marriages — were likely to live to age 70 and beyond; fewer than one-third of divorced men were likely to live to 70; and men who never married outlived those who remarried and significantly outlived those who divorced — but they did not live as long as married men.
“The Longevity Project: Surprising Discoveries for Health and Long Life from the Landmark Eight-Decade Study” (Hudson Street Press, March 2011), University of California
Steadily married men — those who remained in long-term marriages — were likely to live to age 70 and beyond; fewer than one-third of divorced men were likely to live to 70; and men who never married outlived those who remarried and significantly outlived those who divorced — but they did not live as long as married men.
People married for at least 100 years lived the longest.
What sort of idiotic study is this?
C’mon, that was paraphrasing a tiny snippet. You can’t make that comment without perusing the actual study which backs up its conclusion in much greater detail and proofs.
You read it?
I skimmed through it. Though, note, I didn’t critique it based on my reading, I noted one of its conclusions. It’s a serious study by well qualified PhDs in their field so criticizing it based on a very short web forum summary isn’t fair.
Another point the study found, that I hadn’t mentioned, was that parental divorce while the kids were still children statistically has also been shown to lead to a shorter lifespan for the children of the divorcees.
Another point the study found, that I hadn’t mentioned, was that parental divorce while the kids were still children statistically has also been shown to lead to a shorter lifespan for the children of the divorcees.
You mean statistically correlated with. Statistics can’t show which caused the other, or what other factors caused either.
Because perhaps children dying at 65 instead of 70 is what caused the parents to get divorced when the kids were 3.
It’s a serious study by well qualified PhDs in their field so criticizing it based on a very short web forum summary isn’t fair.
huh?
you don’t even give validity to the words of a “not adequately informed” shomer shabbos poster but a study by well qualified PhDs who are possibly frie, athiests or apikorsim should be taken seriously? that’s a new one.
Because perhaps children dying at 65 instead of 70 is what caused the parents to get divorced when the kids were 3.
Very creative. Creative thinking is a very good skill in statistical analysis.
I’m not as creative. I was thinking perhaps poor folks get divorced and die young. Or getting divorced is a risk factor for growing up poor.
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