Divorce: Whose Fault Was It?

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  • #932179
    avhaben
    Participant

    moi aussi: Most divorces are indeed initiated by women. The reason is that they are finicky and cannot handle marriage. Not with their ex and not with a future guy. As was mentioned earlier, Rabbonim have said the vast majority of divorces should never have happened and they could have and should have stayed married.

    I personally heard from several dayanim (seperately and unaffiliated with each other) that handle divorce cases say that in the vast majority of the cases the wife was at fault for the divorce.

    #932180
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    in my previous post, I acknowledged that I know numerous women and girls

    So do you know only one, or do you know many? I’m getting all confused.

    #932181
    Health
    Participant

    moi aussi -“If a man isn’t married, it’s not because the women are too picky, it’s because the man is bad news.”

    Who decided this, you? My opinion is there may be lots of women, but lots don’t really want to get married!

    “A man who calls his ex-wife’s friends “Reshayim” shouldn’t wonder why he’s not remarried.”

    Your real name must be Chulda, the Neiviah, because how else would you know what you just posted!

    First of all, who said I’m wondering why I’m not remarried – I’m not at all. Who said I even started looking yet?

    Second of all, how do you know that her friends aren’t Reshayim?

    “Most divorces are initiated by women, as a result of abusive husbands. Abuse can be physical or/and mental.”

    How about giving us an example of “mental” abuse?

    #932182
    moi aussi
    Member

    Health, why do you need examples of mental abuse? Are you quizzing me or do you want to deny the existence of mental abuse?

    I recommend the book “The Shame Borne in Silence – Spouse Abuse in The Jewish Community” by Rabbi Dr Abraham Twerski

    Twerski discusses both physical and emotional (=mental) abuse.

    {Borne is the past participle of the verb to bear. The illiterates think the title refers to shame born in silence}

    #932183
    moi aussi
    Member

    avhaben, there’s a difference between being at fault for the divorce, or being at fault for initiating a divorce for the wrong reasons.

    I agree that there are women who give up too quickly, but there are more cases of abusive husbands than of impatient wives.

    Ask your Dayanim if they would take a divorced guy for their daughter or their sister???

    #932184
    sushee
    Member

    I know of several cases where single, never-married, girls married divorced guys. I dont know of any cases the other way. I def agree that a large portion of divorces are the girls fault.

    #932185
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Let me try to explain the math. Rabbi Miller said that 99 percent are the fault of the male and 99% the fault of the female. That means one percent extreme on each end, and 98% overlap where both parties are responsible.

    98 + 1 + 1 = 100.

    Q.E.D.

    #932187
    Health
    Participant

    moi aussi -“Health, why do you need examples of mental abuse? Are you quizzing me or do you want to deny the existence of mental abuse?”

    I’m quizzing you because you are Not Rabbi Twerski. I’m sure his examples are true abuse. A lot of women think that certain situations are abuse when they are Not. Actually crying abuse by women in Court is one of the most common lies found in divorce court. It does exist, but not to the extent these women claim!

    Esp. when it comes to mental abuse, a woman in a marriage (or the man) should first seek psychological counselling before deciding and esp. before telling the world, that they are abused!

    Enough with all these women crying Wolf. Maybe you can score some brownie points – sometimes with friends and/or in court, but they are doing a big Disservice to both women & men who were actually abused!

    #932188
    adams
    Participant

    everyone has a different threshold to crazy behavior.

    I knew someone in my extended family who was abusive to her mother publicly, non stop. If this were my wife I would demand that she stop this but the husband seemed to take it in stride. And who knows how she treated him but maybe his character was such that he wants to stay non divorced no matter what.

    so how does this be a partnership, isn’t this evil partnership yet they are not divorced.

    #932189
    Health
    Participant

    Cont.:

    moi aussi – “Most divorces are initiated by women, as a result of abusive husbands. Abuse can be physical or/and mental.”

    And I posted:

    “How about giving us an example of “mental” abuse?”

    So my whole post that I just posted is to prove your whole premise is wrong. Many posters have written, eg. avhaben, that women are at fault. In other words, they might be initiating divorce because they think that they are being abused, but in Reality they are NOT!

    #932190

    There was recently a study done in which they concluded that it takes on average 10 years for a woman to leave a bad marriage.

    She could have left by year 3 or 5 but us women keep on trying to hold down the fort and “make things work”. That is sometimes a fault of ours. We have much to gain by keeping it going if we can “get that dream off the ground”, for the kids’ sake, for the financial sake, and for the sake of the dream of a loving and mutually satisfactory relationship.

    Unfortunatley we women may exercise poor judgment sometimes.

    #932191
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Welcome back ARWSF!!!!

    #932192
    computer777
    Member

    Many posters have written, eg. avhaben, that women are at fault. In other words, they might be initiating divorce because they think that they are being abused, but in Reality they are NOT!

    Did you see avhaben’s creditials that you can decide that he is an expert?

    avhaben thinks it’s perfectly fine for a husband to dominate his wife. In my view that is called abuse. You can agree with him and think it’s not, but doesn’t make either you or him correct.

    R’ Moshe Meir Weiss says a story that a couple came to him to resolve an issue. The wife said her husband told her she can’t visit her parents. The husband told R’ MM Weiss, to tell his wife that it’s within his right and she must obey. R’ MM Weiss answered him, you are correct, but if you want your wife to stick around…….

    Most women will not walk away from a good marriage. Those that do likely have big issues. Big deal! There are men with big issues and women with big issues. It’s not a womens’ thing to have big issues. It’s a human thing. There are a great many men who have big issues too.

    #932193
    Csar
    Member

    Most women will not walk away from a good marriage.

    A woman can’t walk away from a good marriage, since her husband can deny her a divorce as he is under no halachic obligation to divorce her considering it is a good marriage.

    #932194
    computer777
    Member

    Csar: if a woman separates from her husband, she has walked away from her marriage. And even if he’s a great guy and a good marriage, chances are he will divorce her.

    #932195
    Csar
    Member

    Comp777: Not necessarily correct. I’ll start a new thread about this later, since it is OT here.

    #932196
    Think first
    Member

    Case- what woman walks away from a good marriage ? Obviously there are problemos.

    #932197
    computer777
    Member

    Think first: tell that to the clowns over here who think that most women leave for no good reason.

    #932198
    Health
    Participant

    ARWSF – “Unfortunatley we women may exercise poor judgment sometimes.”

    Poor judgment occurs to both men and women. And women exercise poor judgment in getting divorced also.

    To avoid bad judgment it’s best to seek counsel. The best is to speak with Rabbonim experienced with Sholom Bayis AND, not or, go to therapists who deal with marital issues.

    #932199
    Health
    Participant

    computer777 -“Did you see avhaben’s creditials that you can decide that he is an expert?

    avhaben thinks it’s perfectly fine for a husband to dominate his wife. In my view that is called abuse. You can agree with him and think it’s not, but doesn’t make either you or him correct.”

    You totally missed my point. I was using him as one of many. The posters have quoted experts saying that they feel most of the time the woman is at fault. I was giving the reason for this occurance. – That there is way too many women calling their situation abuse when in reality it is Not! There are mental health professionals who can decide if your case is abuse or not.

    I’m not an expert in abuse, neither is avhaben and neither are YOU!

    Arguing about a word is ridiculous. E/o has their own opinion on the definition of domination.

    The abuse has to be concrete and each case has to be judged up individually by a counsellor!

    #932200
    truthsharer
    Member

    First, What type of stupid question is who’s fault is divorce?

    In most cases, two people came to a conclusion that they can’t live together, and ZE HU. Why is there a need in society to assign blame?

    Secondly, my advice for couples who are thinking about divorce is to go to a therapist, not a rav. Speak to most divorced couples and they will most likely tell you that speaking to a rav just made it worse.

    #932201
    sushee
    Member

    Therapists can be dangerous. All too many push for divorce. Sometimes they may be needed, but tread carefully, do research, and only use one a trusted Rov knows well enough to recommend. And always discuss all aspects with a trusted Rov.

    #932202

    As far as I know, Sometimes it’s the fault of the Involved ones.

    Regardless to feminists, the brain wash from the messages which they are sometimes getting from psychologists or psychiatrists on blaming one of the spouses, are having the power to destroy families.

    Even-though the spouse is completely needless for help, is sometime that there is not to whom to talk to. Rather -Talk to the wall. Just because the huge and -powerful theory’s from the powerful…(remotely) on one of the spouses is being giving out to A so-called P’sak din!!!

    #932203
    Song of Blessing
    Participant

    ARWSF: There was recently a study done in which they concluded that it takes on average 10 years for a woman to leave a bad marriage.

    I’ve seen this so so many times unfortunately…

    One thing I don’t get is why the kallah/chosson teachers dont teach more PRACTICAL things during lessons. YES I know how important niddah is – but really… a frum kid that had bare contact with a guy/girl is suddenly going to live with one. How are they supposed to know how to do it or what to look for. Anyone who’s been divorced knows that the problems started from day one… (even during dating) they just didn’t know what to look for… or ignored signs b/c they didn’t realize they were important signals to future issues.

    As far as blame… OMG.. why? If you’re looking to blame someone you’re surely the one at fault. Look at YOURSELF. If you work one yourself then it doesn’t matter who what when where how? If you feel you can’t work on yourself in your marriage – then you have a problem. Seek HELP not BLAME!

    #932204
    Health
    Participant

    Song of Blessing -“As far as blame… OMG.. why? If you’re looking to blame someone you’re surely the one at fault. Look at YOURSELF. If you work one yourself then it doesn’t matter who what when where how? If you feel you can’t work on yourself in your marriage – then you have a problem. Seek HELP not BLAME!”

    Hypocrisy at its’ finest. You can’t blame the spouse, but you can blame a third party, like the teachers:

    “One thing I don’t get is why the kallah/chosson teachers dont teach more PRACTICAL things during lessons. YES I know how important niddah is – but really…”

    What happenned to “Seek HELP not BLAME”? Yes, it’s not these people’s job to teach you about marriage. If you didn’t get this from your parents or Mechanchim/Rabbeyim, there are mental health professionals that you can go to – even before marriage.

    So Song of Blessing – “Look at YOURSELF. If you work on yourself then it doesn’t matter who what when where how? If you feel you can’t work on yourself in your marriage – then you have a problem.”

    #932206
    i said so
    Member

    here is start first of all if s/o thinks divorce is one spouses fault over the other is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!

    it doesnt have to do with whos fault! no one perfect!

    its two ppl tht dont get along! and cnt live together!

    ovbiously if a couple decides to get divorced the have a reason!

    and its n/o bussiness to go find out whos fault it ws!

    #932207
    Song of Blessing
    Participant

    Health: Hypocrisy at its’ finest. You can’t blame the spouse, but you can blame a third party, like the teachers

    Who said I was blaming the teachers for failed marriages? It was a side point – and completely not meant to blame them for the issues. I was just wondering why they don’t. Sorry for not making that clear…

    And to say “If you didn’t get this from your parents or Mechanchim/Rabbeyim, there are mental health professionals that you can go to – even before marriage…” well are there alot of divorces these days or not??

    There are..

    And who do people rely on for the majority of pre-marital questions?

    Usually kallah and chosson teachers. At least thats what I was told when I had the classes that they’re there to help you prepare for whats ahead.

    Again I’m not BLAMING them just like you can’t BLAME the parents, or mechanchim bla bla for all the problems. Its golus – this is what the world is today whether we like it or not. I was just wondering how come its not a standard thing that they introduce marriage books and go over them thoroughly during those classes as opposed to just niddah books.

    #932208
    Health
    Participant

    Song of Blessing -“I was just wondering why they don’t.”

    BECAUSE THAT’S NOT THEIR JOB!

    “There are..

    And who do people rely on for the majority of pre-marital questions?

    Usually kallah and chosson teachers. At least thats what I was told when I had the classes that they’re there to help you prepare for whats ahead.”

    This is exactly my point. Either you misconstrued what s/o told you or they are wrong. They teach Halachos, not more. Some might add in advice, but it isn’t any professional advice. That’s the job of your mentors – parents or Mechanchim/Rabbeyim. And if this isn’t adequate – there are Mental Health counselors you can go to.

    And no, I’m not a Chosson teacher, nor ever was.

    #932209

    “A lot of women think that certain situations are abuse when they are Not.”

    So right said, Health!

    Also on what you said that sometime it’s the friends fault.

    It’s a big c’hurban that some of the work places are mixing into employees life v’dei lehuvin!!!

    Also, who says that always one are supposed to go to ‘Psychologists’ etc.? The psychologists are sometimes causing brain-wash to their clients, that they are getting Abused.

    There are times that one could get her own therapy from S’efarim/books on h’ashkafa, for example one of like “Getting to know your soul/self”, Or Books from “Rabbi Twerski” etc. It’s more Kosher and from the T’orah which isn’t superficial and more deeply.

    #932210

    “Speak to most divorced couples and they will most likely tell you that speaking to a rav just made it worse.”

    Ch’v! R’abbanim are just getting influenced maybe from ‘Psychologists’ etc. It’s the truth, that it’s difficult to combine T’orah and Psychology. This is the m’atzav today’s days. Lot of confusions.

    #932211
    MeemaYehudis
    Member

    Health – I am a kallah teacher, & it’s part of my job to impart a LOT of hashkafa, and eitzas on behavior in marriage. This is not something I originated – it was taught to me by my kallah teacher trainers, & is widespread among Kallah (& I assume Chosson) teachers.

    #932212
    Health
    Participant

    MY – “Health – I am a kallah teacher, & it’s part of my job to impart a LOT of hashkafa, and eitzas on behavior in marriage. This is not something I originated – it was taught to me by my kallah teacher trainers, & is widespread among Kallah (& I assume Chosson) teachers.”

    Well unless these trainers have had psychology training specifically about marriage/interpersonal relationships -they should not impart their wisdom on marriage. Leave it to the professionals. Eg. therapists, Rabbeyim and Morahs. And believe you me not all that I just mentioned are all qualified either.

    Being taught something by s/o else -doesn’t make you qualified, unless they were qualified.

    #932213
    goldersgreener
    Participant

    I know an odom godoil whose child divorced. when he was asked by a close talmid about the story a long time after – his child was remarried – he said listen, her tzu, chulent iz a gutte zach, glace [ice cream] is a gutte zach, ober tzuzamm klappen zei nisht/

    [cholent and ice cream are both indivually good, but they do not go together.

    i personally know the people involved and it is a good hagdoro

    #932214
    interjection
    Participant

    All married couples should read Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus.

    #932215
    mrs. Katz
    Member

    Goldersgreener anyone who can rise above his personal family and accept that his child’s spouse is not to blame is truly an odom godoil.

    #932216
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Yes, interjection, I agree. But it is important for men to focus on the Venutian parts of the book, and for the women to try and understand what Martians are like. But if you read it to try and figure out how the other person should treat you, rather than vice versa, that can be a recipe for disaster.

    Also important to note that there are very few 100% Martians and very few 100% Venutians. Most people have a mixture of the various traits. I know that personally I come from Mars but occasionally feel like having a Venutian moment. My wife on the other hand does sometime offer very Martian like advice! (Especially if you ask some of her sisters!)

    #932217
    Toi
    Participant

    i find it ironic that health as a divorced man is recieving nothing but criticism for expressing his views on divorce, while i strongly assume that any woman on here in the same postion would recieve nothing but sympathy.

    #932218
    mommamia22
    Participant

    While I do agree that some men and women may give up on marriages prematurely (and others should never have married) I also agree with my mother’s opinion that women don’t leave good looking men who treat them well.

    #932219
    Englishman
    Member

    I’ve heard more than one godol relate that the vast majority of divorces were unnecessary and avoidable.

    mommamia: You can say that men don’t divorce good looking women who act appropriately.

    #932220
    mommamia22
    Participant

    Englishman

    Yes

    That’s probably true too.

    I think marriage is a real test of maturity.

    #932221
    Health
    Participant

    mommamia22 -“I also agree with my mother’s opinion that women don’t leave good looking men who treat them well.”

    With the advent in the 20th century of the JAP, some think well means anything they desire.

    There are a lot of unnecessary divorces because one spouse is more spoiled than the other.

    #932222
    welldressed007
    Participant

    No matter what my highly intelligent collegues are coming up with a few rules apply. Dirty laundry is not aired or discussed in public, it takes two to tango and ultimately if you have the need still to blame one and justify ones existance then perhaps be bold and say we were not compatible, why is it necessary to assign blame. Always remover the golden rule about divorce, there are three versions. His,her and now for a chidush the truth.

    #932223
    Naysberg
    Member

    It stands to reason that most gittin are the ex-wife’s fault, as it is the husband who chose to divorce her, since a wife cannot divorce her husband even if she wanted to and cannot demand her husband divorce her unless she has a legally justifiable grievance that she can prove in court (beis din.) Without that the husband is legally justified to remain married to her, if he so chooses, whether she likes it or not. On the other hand, a husband can legally divorce on much lesser grounds (and in Sephardic culture, which isn’t subject to R”G, even on no grounds at all.) So if a divorce occured, it must occur with the willing consent of the husband (otherwise it would be invalid) though not necessarily with the willing consent of the wife (especially in Sephardic culture which has no constraints from R”G.) Therefore it stands to reason that if a divorce occured, it is more likely the ex-wife is at fault since the husband has a far easier position to divorce an at-fault wife than a wife has to demand a divorce.

    #932224
    Toi
    Participant

    i spelt receive wrong, twice.

    #932225
    mommamia22
    Participant

    I think any man who chooses to force his wife to remain married to him when she has reached the point of wanting out (after reasonably trying to resolve the differences) is truly pathetic.

    Health

    You really seem to have such a negative view of women. Granted there are some who walk into marriage with unreasonably high expectations. However, when I say “well” I mean common basic courtesy. If a man is wonderful to a woman, speaks lovingly, kindly, considerately, she won’t be so quick to leave knowing what’s out there may not be better. We’re not talking about extremes here of life with a kind man living in horrendous poverty or a so called JAP who expects the unreasonable. We’re talking about regular people with typical life hopes and expectations of basic commitment to frumkeit, overall kind behavior, and general responsible attitude towards life. Perhaps I don’t know common expectations, but the women I know would never leave a man who offers the above. They might lament not having more, but they would never leave.

    #932226
    Naysberg
    Member

    M22: No it isn’t if the “differences” are silly or do not justify a divorce. i.e. She wants to move to a different neighborhood or she isn’t materially satisfied with not being sufficiently monetarily wealthy or if she falls for another guy. Believe me, these and many other unjustifiable reasons (including many much worse and even dumber than these examples) occur all the time in divorce cases. And in such cases the husband should put his foot down and insist there be no divorce — and people should encourage and support him in continuing the marriage.

    #932227
    Health
    Participant

    mommamia22 -“Health -You really seem to have such a negative view of women.”

    Where in my words did you get such a conclusion?

    It seems Toi was right when he posted -“i find it ironic that health as a divorced man is recieving nothing but criticism for expressing his views on divorce, while i strongly assume that any woman on here in the same postion would recieve nothing but sympathy.”

    Stop making generalizations. Your views Do Not represent All Women!

    “Granted there are some who walk into marriage with unreasonably high expectations. However, when I say “well” I mean common basic courtesy. If a man is wonderful to a woman, speaks lovingly, kindly, considerately, she won’t be so quick to leave knowing what’s out there may not be better.”

    On this we can basically agree.

    “We’re not talking about extremes here of life with a kind man living in horrendous poverty”

    What does this mean? A woman can walk out if the husband is poor?

    Poor people shouldn’t get married and if they make the mistake of getting married -the woman should walk out?!?

    “or a so called JAP who expects the unreasonable. We’re talking about regular people with typical life hopes and expectations of basic commitment to frumkeit, overall kind behavior, and general responsible attitude towards life. Perhaps I don’t know common expectations, but the women I know would never leave a man who offers the above. They might lament not having more, but they would never leave.”

    Well obviously we walk in different circles. I admit I know plenty of women who would never leave their husband who treats her normally. OTOH, I know plenty of women who have divorced or made their husband miserable when they didn’t get what they want!

    #932228
    mommamia22
    Participant

    I don’t know such women who would walk out simply because they don’t get what they want, or because they are poor.

    Most couples I know are not wealthy. They live in rented apartments. Need tuition scholarships. Who have to choose between rent, tuition, clothing, and food bills.

    Some of them (not all) are in relationships with either very controlling or irresponsible men. Men who work for years on end in dead end jobs that don’t bring home sufficient income to cover basic needs despite the wife working also. Men who independently choose to stay in their beloved carreer because they’re convinced that despite a decade or more of struggle and tears that their next dollar is just around the corner. Men who withhold money to get what they want.

    No, idon’t mean a woman should walk out if they’re poor. What I do mean is that I know couples who don’t even have the chance to improve their lot because the husband remains in his reckless irresponsible lifestyle.

    The “death” of the relationship is then, not, because they are poor, but because of serious communication issues and a lack of team effort, deciding as a couple how to proceed. It’s like being married to a gambler who refuses to change his ways.

    #932229
    shlishi
    Member

    Not making enough money is no grounds for a Get. Regardless if the spouse feels he could or should do better.

    #932230
    mommamia22
    Participant

    We’re not talking about earning enough money.

    We’re talking about making unilateral decisions that affect everyone and then not caring how the other person feels.

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