Divorcing Shiksa

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  • #604308

    ohr chodesh
    Member

    How is the best approach, when being mekarev someone, to encourage him to divorce the shiksa he “married”?

    #888064

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Ask a Gadol what to do.

    It will be what you would do anyway, so why bother?

    #888065

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Tell him he is contributing to the shidduch crisis.

    #888066

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ohr Chodesh: Nothing. He will come to it on his own. When someone is becoming Frum that will probably be the very last thing he gives up.

    #888067

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Actually, in such a case, it is one of the few times we encourage a conversion. If the spouse won’t convert, then we try to encourage a divorce. But we try conversion first!

    #888068

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Tell him he is contributing to the shidduch crisis.

    Sneaky! I wish I would have thought of that.

    #888069

    yichusdik
    Participant

    You might start by not calling the woman an abomination, even though he should be divorcing her. That’ll probably go a long way towards establishing your credibility with him, which will help your kiruv efforts.

    #888070

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You also have to make sure there arent any kids, he might be able to divorce a “Shiksa wife” but you cannot legally divorce kids under 18. There is child support that you have to pay and it would probably be a Chilul Hashem if someone who becomes a Baal tshuva refuses to see his non-jewish children because they are not jewish.

    #888071

    dd
    Member

    As yichusdik points out, using the term “shiksa” (or “sheigitz”) is the last thing that you want to do when you want to be mekarev someone – especially when talking about their wife/husband.

    It is disgraceful that members of our community still use that terminology when talking about human beings created btzelem Elokim. I understand why the terminology developed – in previous generations our non-Jewish neighbours were often our persecutors and we could only fight back with words. Nowadays it’s no longer true. Our non-Jewish neighbours are usually fine people who deserve to be referred to respectfully.

    #888072

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    it would probably be a Chilul Hashem if someone who becomes a Baal tshuva refuses to see his non-jewish children because they are not jewish.

    Actually, that would be a kiddush Hashem. Kiddush Hashem and chillul Hashem go by what is correct according to the Torah–not by what the shkutzim think.

    #888073

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    in previous generations our non-Jewish neighbours were often our persecutors and we could only fight back with words. Nowadays it’s no longer true. Our non-Jewish neighbours are usually fine people who deserve to be referred to respectfully.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/135585/Story-of-Anti-Semitic-Thugs-Who-Terrorized-Camp-Bonim-Makes-National-Headlines.html

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/135573/Hikind-%27Aghast%27-At-Bloomberg%27s-Metzitzah-B%27peh-Stance.html

    #888074

    phrum
    Member

    Poppa,

    What’s the makor that a Jew should refuse to see his non-jewish children because they are not jewish?

    #888075

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The passuk says about someone who has children with a non-jewish woman:

    ??’ ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? They have betrayed G-d, by siring alien children

    Meaning, that having shkutzim as children, is an entirely separate problem and betrayal of Hashem, from marrying a shiksa. I think it pretty pashut, that continuing to treat them as children is itself a continuation of the betrayal.

    #888076

    mosheemes2
    Member

    Your examples of bad behavior by non-jews consist of an elected, Frum member of government criticizing the statements of the Jewish mayor of New York, and article saying that it was national news when an anti-Semitic incident (and a fairly harmless one at that) occurred. In what way does that not prove the initial point?

    #888077

    Csar
    Member

    having shkutzim as children, is an entirely separate problem and betrayal of Hashem, from marrying a shiksa.

    I think it goes hand-in-hand. “Marrying” a sheigetz or shiksa (actually the “marriage” has no effect and they aren’t married – so essentially they are cohabiting) means they are doing the act that creates children. So the cohabitation and the having children, seem to me, are the same problem.

    #888078

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    and a fairly harmless one at that

    Do you have a brain? Fairly harmless?

    #888079

    phrum
    Member

    I know the pasuk.

    So your svara is that if you don’t recognize them then you are not continuing the betrayl, but don’t actually hav a makor of this pashut practice, or does anyone else actual hold by this and if so, who?

    Thanks.

    #888080

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’ve never researched it. I wouldn’t even know where to look.

    #888081

    mosheemes2
    Member

    In the context of what’s passed for anti-semitism of the last 2000 years, yeah, that’s fairly harmless. If it wasn’t for the fact that the attacks were anti-Semitic, and in this day and age such things are extremely unusual and shocking to non-Jewish audiences, there’s no chance it would it have been reported by CNN.

    #888082

    Csar
    Member

    Anti-Semitism is a daily occurrence, multiple times a day, in every part of the United States and the world. Even in areas of major Jewish populations, such as New York City.

    #888083

    phrum
    Member

    Thanks. So when you said, “Actually, that would be a kiddush Hashem. Kiddush Hashem and chillul Hashem go by what is correct according to the Torah.” you were actually going by what you think without having done any research (and not even knowing where to look) or learned anything from your rav or rebbe or ever having read any meforshim on it and presented your freestanding interpretation as Torah without any knowledge of what Chazal’s stance or the halacha on actually is? Thanks for clearing that up. I hope you have a meaningful fast.

    #888084

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Let’s see. In America, I get anti-semitic catcalls all the time. In the civilized European countries, people are afraid to walk outside with a yarlmuke.

    #888085

    mosheemes2
    Member

    Let’s say that it’s true that you get anti-Semitic catcalls all the time. (I live in Manhattan, and can’t remember the last time anything like that happened to me. Last time it was an issue was a few months ago when a Hispanic man asked me if Jews would find it offensive if he started to wear a Yarmulke, because he liked the symbolism) In what way does that contradict the initial point here? Most of our non-Jewish neighbors are fine people. The things you linked to are actually evidence of that.

    #888086

    gregaaron
    Member

    What’s the makor that a Jew should refuse to see his non-jewish children because they are not jewish?

    There’s no such thing as “his non-jewish children”. They’re not halachically considered his.

    #888087

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, I suppose so. My main point was that kiddush Hashem does not go by what the shkutzim think, and, I think I am probably correct about this also.

    I’m glad you cleared it up.

    #888088

    Csar
    Member

    There’s no such thing as “his non-jewish children”. They’re not halachically considered his.

    That’s true. A ger’s natural parents, spouse and children from pre-geirus are also not halachically considered his parents, spouse or children.

    #888089

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There’s no such thing as “his non-jewish children”. They’re not halachically considered his.

    Tell that to the court when you are ordered to pay child support or when the kid calls up Daddy crying to see him and Daddy says no because the Torah says you are not my son (or daughter)

    #888090

    Csar
    Member

    With a shiksa there is always a chashash who the real father is anyways.

    #888091

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    With a shiksa there is always a chashash who the real father is anyways.

    I wonder about that. Is there a chazaka of rov beilos achar habaal by such a relationship? If there isn’t, then is there any chazaka that the kids are his? So then how does the opinion of havlaad mamzer make sense?

    #888092

    Csar
    Member

    He isn’t (and never was) her baal.

    #888093

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    With a shiksa there is always a chashash who the real father is anyways.

    DNA Testing, Maybe Halacha doesnt accept it, but the court who orders Child support payment and jail if you dont pay does.

    Besides when the child is older many times you can tell who the father (or mother is) especially when the kid is a spitting image of the parent

    #888094

    shlishi
    Member

    Feif: We do not encourage a shiksa married to a Jew to convert. We only encourage the Jew to divorce her.

    #888096

    yytz
    Participant

    Feif Un is correct. In fact, non-Jewish women “married” to Jewish men convert *all the time.* Much of the time the convert is the one who in effect mekarevs the Jewish husband, but it can happen the other way around too. If a man who is making teshuvah is married to a non-Jew, he should teach her about Judaism, include her in the kiruv and other Jewish activities he is involved in, have her read books, etc. Give her some time. There is no need to rush.

    If within a few months it is 100% clear that she is hostile to or completely uninterested in becoming a completely observant Jew, then divorce may be needed. But in many cases, the spouse ends up converting, along with the children — which is quite a simple matter if they are under bar/bas mitzvah age and can be enrolled in an Orthodox school. As long as she is committed to remaining an Orthodox Jew even if the marriage ends, then the conversion is kosher.

    If I knew someone involved making teshuvah whose kiruv rabbis were telling him to divorce her immediately and that conversion is not an option, I would tell him to run away from them and finish getting mekareved by someone else. Divorcing her immediately, especially if he loves her, is like playing G-d. How do we know Hashem does not want her and the children to convert? Rahab was a prostitute before she converted, but she merited to be the ancestor of prophets.

    If he does divorce her, Hashem forbid he should shun his children and never see them again! How disgusting. Popa, can you cite a single psak that a man in this situation should do this? Derech eretz kadmah l’Torah.

    #888097

    on the ball
    Participant

    “Let’s see. In America, I get anti-semitic catcalls all the time. In the civilized European countries, people are afraid to walk outside with a yarlmuke”

    Really? I’m European and that’s news to me? Which areas of Europe are you thinking of? It’s not 1933 anymore you know.

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