March 13, 2012 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #602473AZOI.ISParticipant
Are any Brooklyn Rabbonim taking a different stand than those who say to go to a Rov first?
If yes, who?March 13, 2012 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #860078gabieMember
Why are you rabbi shopping? You ask the same rabbi all your shailos. Not look for a rabbi whose answer you’ll like.March 13, 2012 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #860079zahavasdadParticipant
Someone once asked Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach a Shailah and Rav Shlomo personally felt it should be forbidden.
However in this case he felt the person needed it to be permitted so he asked another Rav that he knew was Makil in this case and had that Rav Poskin and not himselfMarch 13, 2012 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #860080MorahRachMember
Go to the police. Now.March 13, 2012 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #860081AZOI.ISParticipant
Im sure youre aware that not all Rabbonim have taken a stand on this issue. Mine, I believe, is one who hasnt. If he did, Im not aware and dont have to ask because I dont have any molesters to report, luckily.
Sorry, I rattled you, gabi.March 13, 2012 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #860082MorahRachMember
Why did Rav Shlomo forbid it?March 13, 2012 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #860083nitpickerParticipant
everyone is so sure of themselves on this issue.
but cases are different.
I suppose it may be better to have a general rule, so that people will not hesitate to report when they should. but really, sometimes it just doesn’t make sense.
said my piece.March 13, 2012 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #860084i am hereMember
A rav who you trust and ask all kinds of things to should be the same for this also. thats what i would think why ask around.March 13, 2012 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #860085kfbParticipant
Of course you should go to the police! What’s wrong with you?? There are so many child molesters out there who are walking the streets Bc people are scared to go to the police! Just imagine if it were your kid, I’m sure you’d go! Fyi; my uncle is a psychiatrist in Brooklyn and he deals with a lot of these cases, so don’t tell me it doesn’t happen that often.March 14, 2012 2:07 am at 2:07 am #860086longarekelMember
In most cases you should kill the person first and then report the dead body to the police. Don’t get caught of course. In most cases the person has a din of a rodef since arayos is equated with retzicha. I am dead serious. This is not theoretical. If you are able to, kill the person and do us all a favor. Thank you.March 14, 2012 2:57 am at 2:57 am #860087yitzchokmParticipant
op didn’t say he witnessed S/A. (s)he’s asking a trollish question.
regarding going to the police before asking a ruv,
why wouldn’t you ask? do you not believe your ruv knows the halocha??
and if you don’t believe him, it may be time to pick a new oneMarch 14, 2012 3:07 am at 3:07 am #860088LogicianParticipant
Agree with nitpicker.
longarekel – while the issue at hand is truly terrible etc etc, from a halachic standpoint many cases are not “arayos”. Though I personally like your suggestion 🙂March 14, 2012 4:17 am at 4:17 am #860089yitzchokmParticipant
maybe learning some daf yomi will will clear your head.
your suggestion is stupid, idiotic, and very immature.
deciding someone’s guilty enough to be killed because you think he’s deservent, shows what kind of shallow mind you really have. perhaps ask your ruv, the same when you asked about daf yomi, what he thinks about this matter. tell him your brilliant ideaMarch 14, 2012 5:28 am at 5:28 am #860090Sam2Participant
Longarekel: While you are right that a habitual molester probably has the Din of a Rodeph, you cannot kill a Rodeph unless it is during a time when he is physically chasing after the person. Not just in general, even if you know he’s very inclined to kill (or molest) again.March 14, 2012 6:26 am at 6:26 am #860091Avi KParticipant
In Nishmat Avraham vol. 4 pg. 207 Rav Avraham Steinberg quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Eliashiv and the Tzitz Eliezer as saying htat a molester is a rodef and it is permissible (and presumably a mitzva) to report him.Rav Menashe Klein (Mishna Halacha 16:8) says that if the person will leave education (in the case of a teacher) such that that he will no longer commit these acts it is sufficient. If not, his name should be publicized. He also requires “proper witnesses”, which is very difficult to understand (see Choshen Mishpat 2:1 with Rema).
Of course, one must be certain that there are “raglayim ladavar” and it is not an attempt to “get” somebody or the result of an overly active imagination. This is also the position of the Agudath Israel of America (in its clarification of its postition).March 14, 2012 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #860092BTGuyParticipant
Any delay in reporting any chas veshalom suspected molestation is an injustice to the victim, so you may as well have your finger on that trigger, too. Go to your Rabbi or go to the cops. But do something for the sake of the person, no different than chas veshalom someone caught in a burning building.March 14, 2012 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #860093
It’s a good policy for most types of major decisions, including this one, to first go to your Rav who will guide you.March 14, 2012 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #860094TheGoqParticipant
For those who think reporting it will cause a chillul hashem trust me not reporting it is a much worse chillul hashem if you dont report it more children WILL be harmed.March 14, 2012 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #860095
Rav Oelbaum shlita spoke in Queens last year. He quoted the Tzitz Eliezer (and said other contemporary poskim agree) who paskened when asked by someone named “Dr. Abraham” that in a case of clear danger to the person being abused not only may one report it to the authorities, one is “mechuyav” to go straight to the police (it is not relevant that the person will be arrested etc…). If I am not mistaken, this is true even if the ongoing abuse is not life threatening. You can find this talk of Rav Oelbaum Shlita online at torahanytime.com
If I am not mistaken, he quoted R’ Elyashiv Shlita, he should have a refua shlaima bikarov, that in a case of sakana to the abused one must go to the authorities even if it means the child will be put into foster care that is not a frum environment.March 14, 2012 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #860096besalelParticipant
it doesnt sound like you have a case at hand and you are just asking theoretically but if you have suspicions of a serious crime you should report it to the police or to the person responsible for the victim (like a parent or teacher).March 14, 2012 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #860097postalMember
Rav Elyashev said the only time it is permitted is if “raglayim ldavar” exists.March 14, 2012 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #860098
But you must go to your Rav first.March 14, 2012 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #860099yitayningwutParticipant
Longarekel – That is a very interesting take on the Mishna (Sanhedrin 73a) of ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ???… ???? ????. I have never heard anyone cite that. Interesting.March 14, 2012 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #860100kfbParticipant
If someone murders a person, should I go to my rav first or the police? What about stealing? I just don’t see how anyone can cover up child molestation! The reason rabbonim don’t say anything is because the crazies in the community threaten to kill them. You must go to the police or you could prob get in trouble for aiding and abbeting.March 15, 2012 12:00 am at 12:00 am #860101
Cherrybim. I’m not sure what situation you are referring to, but if you listen to Rav Oelbaums talk, you will hear that in almost every situation, the poskim he cites disagree with your statement.March 15, 2012 12:13 am at 12:13 am #860102
“Why are you rabbi shopping”
On this particular point. May I suggest listening to the talk of Rav Oelbaum. Specifically, the last 10 minutes.March 15, 2012 12:24 am at 12:24 am #860103EnderParticipant
I’m pretty sure R’ David CohenMarch 15, 2012 12:44 am at 12:44 am #860104postalMember
apushutayid: cherrybim is correct. Rav Elyashev shlit”a, may the RBS’O return him to the best of health, paskened that “raglayim ldavar” must first be established to permit reporting. Without that, says the posek hador, it is against the Torah to report. And being raglayim ldavar is a halachic determination, it needs to be first so determined by a posek, on a case-by-case basis, something I believe is specifically stated in Rav Elyashev shlita’s psak.March 15, 2012 12:52 am at 12:52 am #860105Sam2Participant
Yitay: Really? I’ve been saying that since I was around 12. It’s a Mefurash Mishnah. I’m surprised you haven’t thought of that yourself/heard of it before.March 15, 2012 2:16 am at 2:16 am #860106
Postal.the way rav oelbaum explains it, rav elyashiv does not say a Rav is required to determine if there is a situation of raglayim lidavar.March 15, 2012 11:56 am at 11:56 am #860108hershiMember
Rav Elyashev wrote you must first ask a shaila.March 15, 2012 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #860109
Apushatayid – Anyone who has the good fortune to have a personal Rav will seek out the Rav’s advice and guidance no matter what; because he is doing that already and it becomes automatic; that is what a Rav is there for…to guide and do chesed. People without a personal Rav cannot understand this relationship. I cannot imagine being in this situation and not speaking to my Rav immediately.March 15, 2012 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #860110yitayningwutParticipant
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