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of course a psychologist is gr8 for ppl with real problems but can someone with only small problems benefit from them too?
Why not? Just choose wisely
In theory, anyone can help anyone else by listening to and speaking with them. The reverse is also true. Of course, one must truly want to be helped otherwise they are wasting everyones time.
They only help people when they have the humilty and saychel to COMBINE THEIR BOOK SMARTS WITH TORAH CONCEPTS AND COMMON SENSE.
mine helped me greatly but my problems were not small
There is nothing wrong with being concerned about your issue even if you feel its minor.If you had a persistent stomachache even if minor you would see your doctor. Emotional health is just as important, if you feel you need it don’t hesitate to get in touch with a psychologist or social worker. Most qualified and menshlech counselors will let you know in an initial phone conversation if your problem should be addressed in the psychological setting, and if they are the right counselor that could handle your issue. You do not have to be mentally unstable to have something emotionally bothering you or something in your life that you just cant handle without outside input. Davka it is to be commended and shows you have your head on straight, that you realize that you have some issue that needs addressing whether emotional or otherwise. Hatzlacha with whatever you are dealing with,Frielichen Purim
If you go to the right person they can really help you. If you go to the wrong person they can mess you upp. I know someome who was going through a hard time and went to a psychologist and became not frum and still isn’t frum. I am going to one (depression) and she’s really good. Some people also work better with frum people where as some don’t care to have someone from the same background. It’s all a matter of the “shidduch”.
I’d say you should try solving your problem on your own first. If you see you need outside help, then do so.
BTW if a psychologist charges an arm and a leg, s/he’s very likely not too good a psychologist. Also, if you see the slightest sign that s/he’s is going against the Torah – run!
to mind over chatter: Many therapists charge what a doctors visit would cost if you did not have insurance between 100-200 dollars with most charging 125-175 an hour. I do not understand your statement about “charging an arm and a leg.” If you want reduced rate and insurance acceptance you can obviously see someone more cheaply. In Brooklyn The Jewish board has some good therapists that will accept insurance.
A psychologist can help you, but its not magic. You need to do the hard work, pretty much all he can do is give you good directions. Of course if there is something physical wrong they might be able to point you in useful directions.
BTW if a psychologist charges an arm and a leg, s/he’s very likely not too good a psychologist.
And the same with restaurants.
mytake,i’ve been saying that for years!
People say…abusive people are “nebach not well”.
I say they are suffering from BADMIDOSITIS!!
Cucumber- you sound like an intelligent individual so yes i suppose if you can use a Phycoligist go ahead!!! Much hatzlocha
Hey cucumber,misplaced rachmonus is what caused the story of Purim…the abusers are suffering??
Do you also feel sorry for Hitler and Saddam Hussein?
psychologists dont solve ur problems, they just let u talk about it and come up with a solution on your own…or draw pictures about ur feelings?!?!? lol and idk if u have medical insurance but most psychologists usually take insurance.
before i started working for an accounting firm, i worked for a medical billing company that worked with psychologist and psychytrists……and let me tell u, most of them were NUTS!!! imagine listening to everyone problems all day everyday….it can drive a person insane lol :))
I hear you cucumber.
But an abuser who suffered MUST STOP THE PERPETUATION of that which made him suffer…because he is NOW GUILTY TOO.
And the people who ENABLE the abuser to abuse while showering him with support are NO LESS GUILTY.
Calculated destruction of another human being with Nazi-like precision earns you a deluxe suite in you-know-where.
You are also responsible for any children who are turned off of frumkeit because you are a monster underneath your facade.
Do I sound upset? I’m sorry.It’s a touchy subject for me.
Um..ahem…sooo,how’s the weather?:)
eclipse, get back to cleaning my room…my shoes need sorting…thanks 🙂
cucumber:
“Its only unhappy, insecure people with no self-confidence who become abusive to make themselves feel good and powerful. No normal person feels good when they hurt other people.”
I disagree. Just as every person can make themselves into a good, even great person, every person can make themselves into bad person, or even a monster. We all have the ability to become a Godly saint, and we all have it within ourselves to become a monster. It’s just a question of who we choose to become.
mw13:
I disagree. Just as every person can make themselves into a good, even great person, every person can make themselves into bad person, or even a monster. We all have the ability to become a Godly saint, and we all have it within ourselves to become a monster. It’s just a question of who we choose to become.
But why would anyone choose to become a destructive monster? Besides, wicked people are full of regrets (chazal). Not being content and always regretting, yet repeating the same exact deal in the same again and again, is certainly the makeup of an unhappy etc person.
mw13–exactly!
cshapiro–I charge for overtime!:)
I am a psychologist and I often use ideas from Pirkei Avot with both Jewish and Non Jewish patients. I also use ideas from Zen Buddhism and other religions to help people. I have worked with Muslims, Frum Jews, Christians of various sorts, and no one has ever left their religion because of therapy. I fact, no matter what religion a patient is, I harness their own faith to help them grow. That comment made by the woman in this thread who did medical billing about psychologists being crazy is silly and foolish and is it’s own form of ???? ??? The fact is that listening to people’s ???? tzoros all day long has made me more tolerant, understanding and accepting of people. It has taught me greatest patience. To address what the original poster said, Yes, psychology helps and yes, Psychologists can help you. If you would like to discuss this further or want help in finding a psychologist who is respectful of religion and Judaism, we can talk further, perhaps start a new thread.
I am a psychologist and I often use ideas from Pirkei Avot with both Jewish and Non Jewish patients. I also use ideas from Zen Buddhism and other religions to help people. I have worked with Muslims, Frum Jews, Christians of various sorts, and no one has ever left their religion because of therapy. I fact, no matter what religion a patient is, I harness their own faith to help them grow. That comment made by the woman in this thread who did medical billing about psychologists being crazy is silly and foolish and is it’s own form of ???? ??? The fact is that listening to people’s ???? tzoros all day long has made me more tolerant, understanding and accepting of people. It has taught me greatest patience. To address what the original poster said, Yes, psychology helps and yes, Psychologists can help you. If you would like to discuss this further or want help in finding a psychologist who is respectful of religion and Judaism, we can talk further, perhaps start a new thread.
EBA: “ain odom roeh nigai atzmo” 😉
TBT:
“But why would anyone choose to become a destructive monster?”
Because people have free-will, and can do whatever they please. Have you never done something just to spite, or even hurt somebody? I certainly have, and I believe we all have that monster within us. We can choose to fight it, or we can choose to strengthen it.
“Besides, wicked people are full of regrets (chazal). Not being content and always regretting, yet repeating the same exact deal in the same again and again, is certainly the makeup of an unhappy etc person.”
Certainly, being wicked will result in a regret-filled, unhappy life. But that doesn’t mean somebody starting down the path of wickedness has physiological problems. They are just normal people who have chosen to follow and strengthen their inner monster. Only later does the path that they have chosen ruin their lives.
mw13:
I’m not sure what we disagree about.
But that doesn’t mean somebody starting down the path of wickedness has physiological problems. They are just normal people who have chosen to follow and strengthen their inner monster.
I’ve heard the GR”A says that every aveira ever committed is due to bad middoss. I don’t know how to define normal, but they are suffering emotionally, since bad midddos = emotional imbalances.
“Uletaaveh yevakesh, nifrad” a person seeking their desires, becomes lonely. A good Frum psychologist may be able to help a person out of just chasing their taavos etc.
of course a psychologist is gr8 for ppl with real problems but can someone with only small problems benefit from them too?
You’re going to need to define your terms.
I suspect the small problems are real problems.
truth be told:
“mw13: I’m not sure what we disagree about.”
This what we disagree about:
“bad midddos = emotional imbalances.”
I am saying that bad middos do not result from emotional/physiological problems, rather from the conscience decision to strengthen one’s bad middos. This may result in emotional problems, but it is not caused by emotional problems.
psychologists should be avoided like the plague.
mw13: I think you may be oversimplifying things. Its a very broad discussion, which can be had. But first, we would have to clearly outline what we’re debating and what conclusion we are trying to arrive at.
Iuv (????) tried to exempt all the reshoim from being punished. What was he thinking?
Do you believe that seeing a psychologist, not a psychiatrist (who prescribes medications), is ever warranted?
cucumber-
From my personal experience I think you should speak in general terms with a qualified teacher, rebbe, rabbi, etc. and ask them if they think you should see a psychologist. Therapy can be very effective, but not everyone gains from it, and going to the wrong shrink can sometimes do more damage than good. You just need to find him/her, but there’s someone in every community, usually someone who keeps a low profile but does a lot behind the scenes, who is well qualified to give you advice as to whether or not you should see a professional, and what kind, and sometimes even give you a specific name. Just please don’t use trial and error, because it can hurt badly.
mytake:
You made a great list on your link. One bone though. Aren’t some of the practices you discourage considered successful therapeuticall practices? I understand that some disagree, but Icounseling success is very difficult to prove, and I think some of those practices may be considered “good” by some psychotherapists and social workers
cucumber:
“Someone who was brought up with abuse or who had his/her confidence destroyed by someone else could not control that. Sure he can choose what to do next and how to respond but his choice is not on the same level as someone brought up well and he is still not a happy person. Passing on the chain of abuse is wrong. But all that can’t change the fact the abuser is still an unhappy person who is suffering too.”
Yes people who are abused often become abusive. However, people also become abusive by themselves (or else how did the chain begin?) so I don’t think we can say an abuser has necessarily been abused.
Also, I think this whole abuser=abused thing is only by child abuse. Most other evil paths are self-chosen.
tbt:
“mw13: I think you may be oversimplifying things. Its a very broad discussion, which can be had. But first, we would have to clearly outline what we’re debating and what conclusion we are trying to arrive at.”
We are debating whether one is responsible for their own evilness, or whether it is caused by outside factors. What conclusion you are trying to arrive at will depend on which side of the debate you take.
“Iuv (????) tried to exempt all the reshoim from being punished. What was he thinking?”
I do not know. But what bearing does this have on our discussion?
“Do you believe that seeing a psychologist, not a psychiatrist (who prescribes medications), is ever warranted?”
Absolutely.
cucumber-
You’re welcome, though I think there’s been a bit of a misunderstanding. The issue I am talking about is not a hashkafic one; regarding that I agree with you. It is just that from my experience there are complications with just looking up a shrink in the phonebook, and I’ll explain.
First of all, when someone sees a psychologist for therapy, the therapy will only happen if there is a rapport betweeen the therpist and the patient. It is like a shidduch, the person can be the best psychologist but if it’s not a match it won’t work. What happens when someone is set up with the wrong person, especially if it is more than once, is that they give up – and these are the people you hear ranting about how psychologists never work.
Second of all, just like every doctor goes to med school but one specializes in cardiology, one in podiatry, and the other in dermatology, the same is with psychologists, even though it isn’t officially on the degree. So while one might be really good for helping someone deal with abuse, if one’s main challenge is overcoming addiction a different psychologist might be the answer. This reason as well causes people to give up when they just look someone up in the phonebook, because it isn’t always obvious what the specific doctor’s specialty is, and when they go and it just doesn’t help them they think they have no hope with therapy.
I am not simply speculating, I am talking from experience.
Therefore my suggestion to someone who would like to see a psychologist is to first talk it over in general terms with someone who you feel ‘knows what he/she’s talking about’ and is ‘with the situation’ and have them direct you to someone they think is right for you.
“even if an abuser has not been abused there is something causing him to hurt another person.”
Every person was once mistreated in her/his life. What kind of excuse is this?? There are ppl out there who have BAD MIDDOS. Simple! We all have a million excuses to go OTD, abuse others, make fun of others etc. etc. But we have a Torah. We are Yidden. We cannot do whatever we FEEL like doing. Abusers WILL be held responsible for their actions! Unless of course they’re mentally ill. I’m not exactly sure HOW they’ll be punished, cuz I’m not sure whether they’re doing what they’re doing out of mishugaas or out of cruelty. In any case, I’m not here to say how one should be punished. My point is, we all have challenges. We all have trying times. THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO ABUSE OTHERS.
observanteen,well-said.
mw13
We are debating whether one is responsible for their own evilness, or whether it is caused by outside factors.
“Iuv (????) tried to exempt all the reshoim from being punished. What was he thinking?”
I do not know. But what bearing does this have on our discussion?
See below
We all have the ability to become a Godly saint, and we all have it within ourselves to become a monster. It’s just a question of who we choose to become.
Well here is the Gemora: ?”? ??
??? ???, ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????. ??? ?????
????? ?? ????, ???? ??? ??????? ??????, ???? ???? ??????? ??????. ???? ?? ???, ???? ?????.
???? ??????, ???? ?????. ?? ???? ?? ????
so yes, at the end of the day we all can become a tzadik, or a rosha, its not an equal choice.
Dovid was born with a red/killing mazal. He had a much harder battle, so he was treated differently.
Studies indicate that the people whose bad situations bring out abuse etc, may be genetic.
So yes, someone who sees they have a certain tendency for abusive (or other) behaviors, can seek the help of a psychologist to overcome their emotional challenges in order not to become that rosha.
TBT: Absolutely. Lefum tzara agra. They’ll get more schar. BUT this is STILL NOT an excuse to abuse others!! I really think that by defending the abuser, you somehow paint a picture that those who DON’T abuse others IN SPITE of their challenges and difficulties, don’t even deserve to be praised!! Because the poor abuser who went through sooo much is excused!
observanteen: I’m not defending abusers, not at all! I was responding to a previous poster who felt that those who abuse [etc] are doing it out of a choice to be evil. His claim was, shrinks wont help them.
They are responsible for their behavior, but they may not be doing it with what they view as “evil intent”. They need to be helped. But, there is no excuse at all to hurt other people.
Oooops. Sorry then. I do believe though that SOME abusers are doing it with an evil intent. A shrink may be of help, but it’s quite unlikely for an abuser to be willing to go for help.
BTW sorry if I sound so bitter, but this is a “touchy” issue to me.
Dont b sorry observan. Just hop on over to the Touchy Subject Support Group! Bitterness included!!(cmon, we needa get it started..)
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