Do women avoid seeking necessary medical care out of modesty?

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  • #1291113

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    For example, if a woman is having a heart attack, is she less likely to call Hatzolah because they are male?

    #1291236

    golfer
    Participant

    No.

    #1291229

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Not a heart attack per se.

    But related to “Women’s issues” some are.
    Though admittedly there are not many examples that fall into that category.

    I would ask though even if she is not “less likely” to call a male. if she feels more comfortable with a female, why shouldnt she have that option? Especially in a community that prides itself on tznius separate seating at weddings, buses., waiting rooms, all of a sudden when a women is at her most exposed we say no to sending a woman? (OF course if their is no woman available thats another story)

    #1291231

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do women only go to women doctors?

    #1291250

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    RebYidd23,

    For example, if a woman is having a heart attack, is she less likely to call Hatzolah because they are male?

    She is less likely to call Hatzola because she is having a heart attack. Hopefully whoever is with her will call whoever can get there fastest.

    #1291251

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Heart attack symptoms are different for women. A woman might be unsure whether she is having a heart attack, and she might be embarrassed of potentially being examined for nothing.

    #1291253

    Joseph
    Participant

    It isn’t tznius for a woman to be doing male activities, such as carrying a radio on their clothing, ruining around or speeding on the streets to get to someone.

    #1291262

    apushatayid
    Participant

    How many of the 1st 9 responses were written by a woman?

    #1291245

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Even within the Chareidi tzibur, it is accepted that pikuach nefesh trumps any concerns regarding tzinius. If one feels they are c’v suffering from a potentially life-threatening injury or illness, their first and only concern should be finding the best medical care, regardless of gender, as quickly as possible without debating matters of tzinius. As a practical matter, the majority of medical professionals in frum neighborhoods hospitals tend to be male so its not even an option to search for a woman physician in an emergency. Fortunately ,that is changing and more bnos yisroel are being encouraged to pursue medical degrees but for now, men are the norm. For lesser (non-urgent) medical needs, of course a woman can seek a woman medical care provider for such matters as OB/GYN, internal medicine, urology, etc. but otherwise if that makes her more comfortable. While there may be a de minimus number of cases where a misguided frum woman has delayed seeking care or goes to a less experienced medical provider in a life threatening health issue out of tzinius concerns, such cases are thankfully very rare and should remain so. It is incumbent on all rabbonim and askanim to make the point of seeking timely treatment from the best available professional with no concerns as to gender.

    #1291287

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Do women only go to women doctors?”
    a. Many do
    b. Even those who dont, often do for “sensitive” areas
    c. Even if not insistent many prefer women doctors especially for “sensitive areas”

    “It isn’t tznius for a woman to be doing male activities”

    nu nu so women should act as primarty breadwinners , that is a separate discussion though I am surprised you take that view. This discussion is about providing women more comfort or preserving tznius when they are most vulnerable/exposed.

    #1291302

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Do women only go to women doctors?”
    a. Many do
    b. Even those who dont, often do for “sensitive” areas
    c. Even if not insistent many prefer women doctors especially for “sensitive areas”

    a. Less than 1% of women will refuse all medical care by male medical professionals.
    b. And even those will accept, to take an example, a male surgeon that needs to cut into her body.
    c. If surgery a sensitive area?

    #1291303

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Do women only go to women doctors?”
    a. Many do
    b. Even those who dont, often do for “sensitive” areas
    c. Even if not insistent many prefer women doctors especially for “sensitive areas”

    a. Less than 1% of women will refuse all medical care by male medical professionals.
    b. And even those will accept, to take an example, a male surgeon that needs to cut into her body.
    c. Is surgery a sensitive area?

    #1291304

    bk613
    Participant

    “If one feels they are c’v suffering from a potentially life-threatening injury or illness, their first and only concern should be finding the best medical care, regardless of gender, as quickly as possible without debating matters of tzinius”

    That is true but I would think that it’s lchatchila if the best Medical care possible also avoids tzinius issues. Do you disagree with this?

    #1291338

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    I’m not sure what you are getting at. Are you really saying that There arent a significant numebr of frum women that prefer female OB/gyn’s ?
    (Let’s leave aside poskim who say it is required for a woman ot see a female OB/Gyn is she is as competent as her colleagues)

    #1291466

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I don’t think it applies to heart attacks, but I know there are some communities where women’s health issues are neglected, probably for that reason. There are concerned medical professionals who try to address this thru education and by opening community clinics for women that address their sensitivities.

    #1291464

    torahlove1
    Participant

    i don’t think this thread is for YWN, especially as almost every comment has been made by men.

    #1291493

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To BK613:
    If a woman has existing arrangements with female specialist relevant to her pre-existing condition than obviously that would be best since she would be best served by a physician she knows and trusts. However in the case of a heart attack or serious injury requiring invasive surgery, clearly the gender of the attending physician is irrelevant. She wants to get to the best medical facility asap and would care less about tzinius if her life is at risk.
    Equally so, most men would probably feel more comfortable with a male physician for routine exams and non-emergency care but I cannot imagine a rational yid with a life threatening illness or accident telling the emergency room physician, cardio lab specialist or surgeon (who happens to be a woman) that he would prefer to delay treatment until a male physician can be called. Even the gadol hador would not delay a nanosecond to potentially save a life.

    #1291500

    Joseph
    Participant

    TL1: Men make halachic determinations for women, and there’s no reason their input is any less vital here.

    #1291518

    2scents
    Participant

    Winnie, you mean areas that neglect health in general, which is not the frum community.

    You obviously are not involved in the health care, the frum community in general is very aggressive and demanding when it comes to health care. You probably referring to some of the other communities that I am familiar with. that use the hospital as their primary health care providers.

    #1291524

    2scents
    Participant

    What Tznius issues? there is very little for EMS personal to do in the prehospital setting for gynecological emergencies other than take the patient quickly to the hospital, try to help the patient maintain decent vitals by administering advanced life support interventions. and most importantly if necessary having the hospital and the operating room on standby should there be a need for that, to save the patients life.

    If that poses a Tznius issue, please point it out.

    One would think that having a service that mainly responds to women related emergencies, with hard to miss stickering on their cars and vans parked in front of someones house, is a much greater Tznius issue.

    #1291546

    apushatayid
    Participant

    When a woman is in advanced stages labor she may not want the guy who eats chulent and kugel with her husband on thursday night rushing her to the hospital. she almost certainly doesnt want him delivering her baby if they wont make it to the hospital on time. A woman who has been through labor and delivery would be able to explain that to you way better than I can.

    #1291550

    Joseph
    Participant

    APY, Hatzalah has non-neighborhood members too.

    #1291563

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    What about if a woman spills hot water all over herself and needs emergency care for that?

    #1291564

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    2scents,

    What Tznius issues? there is very little for EMS personal to do in the prehospital setting for gynecological emergencies other than …

    My understanding is that the “bread and butter” situations that Ezras Nashim intends to handle are unplanned out-of-hospital births. The majority of these situations are not actual medical emergencies, and, if the birth occurs at home or en route to the hospital/birth center, there would certainly be quite a bit for the attendant “to do”. For rarer situations such as placenta previa, where an emergency C-section is required to save the mother and baby, you would be correct.

    One would think that having a service that mainly responds to women related emergencies, with hard to miss stickering on their cars and vans parked in front of someones house, is a much greater Tznius issue.

    This is a good point that I had not considered before. Any emergency vehicle pulling up in front of your house is going to cause a ruckus, however, and I’m guessing for those who use Ezras Nashim, the guarantee of being attended by a woman outweighs the embarrassment of the neighbors being able to discern more detail about what is going on.

    #1291567

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Men make halachic determinations for women, and there’s no reason their input is any less vital here.

    Vital?? XD

    #1291575

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    2scents- I was referring to certain tests and screenings routinely performed for healthy women, not health care in general. I have read articles (sorry don’t remember the sources) that certain religious neighborhoods in Israel lag behind other neighborhoods in performing such tests. It may be a tznius issue, but it may also be that their insulation and non-exposure to “regular” media means that they are not as educated on the latest health recommendations, or a combination of both, since such issues are not considered appropriate to be discussed in magazines/newspapers that the community does read.

    #1291607

    2scents
    Participant

    Winnie, I am not familiar with that, but wonder how the author determined the reason behind their findings.

    #1291614

    2scents
    Participant

    Its ones own choice to chose whichever available services they prefer. Yet its frustrating to see how random people just decide on whats an issue and what not.
    In the presence of an emergency setting, most people will not care what gender the provider is, the greater the acuity the lesser ones focus or consideration on who the provider is, its the level of experience, expertise and scope of practice that matters to the patient.

    With regards to out of hospital births, there is the risk of complications to mother and baby that would require rapid lifesaving interventions. Its a statistical fact that some newborns will require aggressive resuscitation and some mothers will have life threatening complications.

    It sounds nice when someone posts some nonsensical arguments of the responder being their husbands friend. for starters one would think that a friend or acquaintance of the patient or their family would let other personnel respond to this address, Hatzalah is a pretty large organization with lot of members there will always be someone else available for this call. Besides, an argument can easily be made that the patient would be uncomfortable with the same gender provider who is their acquaintance, not their husbands shull buddy, being involved in ANY of their emergencies.

    #1291642

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Re. Non neighborhood members. Wouldnt that run counter to “members on every block” comment you made earlier regarding response times? Have you ever tried to legitimately consider someone else’s concerns or feelings (that was a rhetorical question).

    #1291677

    Joseph
    Participant

    APY, Hatzalah sending out a non-neighborhood member due to the expressed concern you enumerated about a neighbor responding beats establishing a redundant second organization with far less experience.

    #1291678

    2scents
    Participant

    apushatayi – I do not think that I made this comment, I did a quick scan over my comments yet was not able to find any such comment.

    Not sure what you are trying to score with your question, what difference does it make if I am considerate or not with regards to someone else’s concerns, this discussion is not about myself. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and so am I, If you have anything reasonable to say, please do so.

    #1291670

    Re: Non-neighborhood members. Wouldn’t that run counter to the “members
    on every block” comment you made earlier regarding response times?

    Rapid response isn’t quite as important for a woman giving birth as
    it is for someone choking or suffering a heart attack or stroke, is it?

    #1291823

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Besides, an argument can easily be made that the patient would be uncomfortable with the same gender provider who is their acquaintance, not their husbands shull buddy, being involved in ANY of their emergencies.”

    Ok, so those people can cal hatzalah. Nobody is arguing that hatzalah should be disbanded.

    It boils down to the following simple question:

    should Women have the option of calling a women only group in some situations?
    Period. yes or no?

    Most other points are distracting from the above simple question
    Are there cases that most (all?) women woudlnt care? sure
    If there are no woman available would most (all?) women settle for a male even one who eats cholent with their husbands? sure
    Should we keep the much more advanced and established well networked hatzalah for most (all?) life threatening emergencies? Again, of course

    but none of these facts change the simple fact that their are some situations that some women feel more comfortable having a female attend to them.

    #1291811

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    2-cents, I don’t know if the authors did give a reason behind their findings- they just presented the data showing extent of testing/screening done in different neighborhoods, and urged that things be done to correct the sub-optimal use of important screenings in certain neighborhoods. The possible reasons that I wrote in my post were my speculations, based on the topic of this thread.

    #1292016

    2scents
    Participant

    umiquitin – Your asking a question that has an opinionized response to it, It’s to each and their own to answer this.

    But keep in mind, there are some that speculate and some that actually know, it’s those that deal with situations like these on a regular basis that have first hand regarding this matter.

    #1292024

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    2scents,

    With regards to out of hospital births, there is the risk of complications to mother and baby that would require rapid lifesaving interventions. Its a statistical fact that some newborns will require aggressive resuscitation and some mothers will have life threatening complications.

    Ezras Nashim volunteers are reportedly trained to deal with those types of emergencies (e.g., they are certified in neonatal resuscitation). Is it your argument that they are not? Or is it something else?

    #1292043

    2scents
    Participant

    Avram,

    They do not offer Advanced Life Support, so how can they offer NR?

    Did they just have some lectures on this topic, or are they certified?

    They do not offer the complete standard of care that other patients get when calling and activating traditional EMS or Hatzalah. They only offer Basic Life Support with transport depending on them calling 911 as a 3rd party caller.

    It is up to the patient to decide which services to contact or if to even call at all, yet it is important that the patient understands the options and limitations of any of the available services and make an informed decision.

    #1292060

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    2scents,

    They do not offer Advanced Life Support, so how can they offer NR?

    ALS and neonatal resuscitation (e.g., certification from the NRP) are not the same thing. Ezras Nashim volunteers (according to their Website) are certified by NRP for neonatal resuscitation and also as EMTs, which, assuming entry level, they would be capable of providing BLS, whereas paramedics could provide ALS.

    Are all Hatzola volunteers paramedics (that is, they have substantially more training than entry level EMTs)? If not, how do they handle emergencies where ALS might be required?

    #1292064

    bk613
    Participant

    “umiquitin – Your asking a question that has an opinionized response to it, It’s to each and their own to answer this.”

    And some women feel the answer is yes. So your opinion is irrelevant. If you don’t want to use their services (and u should never need EN or Hatzalah) don’t, but don’t slander an organization that is filling the needs of some people

    #1292065

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    2scents,

    with transport depending on them calling 911 as a 3rd party caller

    This is inconsistent with your statement above about the Ezras Nashim stickered ambulance in front of your house attracting attention. Does Ezras Nashim provide medical transport, or do they not?

    #1292080

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    2scents
    “Your asking a question that has an opinionized response to it, It’s to each and their own to answer this.”

    Yes obviously. That’s why I asked it.

    #1292102

    DWKL1
    Participant

    i don’t generally read or write into these forums but this question caught my eye
    i think the question is absurd to any intelligent person
    anyone who needs critical medical care should go to which ever doctor is able to heal them the best way possible. when a medical emergency is in progress you call the closest person able to help their are no gender issues when it comes to saving a life . that being said, when all things are equal as far as medical expertise, if a woman feels more comfortable with a woman physician thats her personal preference, go for it
    but your not obligated to give up your life if a woman isnt the closest available to do CPR
    c’mon how about a little common sense here

    #1292116

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To DWKL 1

    U’Mein v’ U”Mein……there have a been a lot of words expended to make the bottom line point you make so simply and elegant. When it comes to anything other than routine matters, gender and tzinius concerns are totally irrelevant for even the most frum yid when it comes to matters of medical care. Go for the best available physician without regard to gender, level of torah observance, or even whether or not the physician is a yid. Get the best available care as quickly as you can wherever you can. Period. Full stop.

    #1292120

    2scents
    Participant

    ubiquitin – This is what I meant, due to it being a personal preference I do not think that I can make a blanket statement, everyone has their own personal preference. Some people prefer not to go to the hospital at all, or to call a cab. Yet I think its reasonable to say that people that deal with these situations on a regular basis are in a better position to respond to this than random people that do not have first hand knowledge.

    Avram – Your missing basic facts, EN does not transport, they call 9-1-1 when they believe the patient would require transport or more advanced care, the vans that were mentioned are personal vehicles that are fully stickered in which they respond to the patients location.

    Avram – Regarding Neonatal Resuscitation, true anyone can get a certification, all you really need to do in order to get the certification, is answer some questions on a test, although a class is recommended its a test that is required. the same goes for ACLS and PALS which doctors, some nurses and paramedics must have and remain current. The certification on its own does not allow anyone to actually do anything above their scope of practice or license.
    On a Basic level, which is where EN operates, their scope of practice and license does not allow them to do any of the advanced procedures. The basic stuff, while life saving and important, is just basic.
    In short, ALS and NRP are not the same, yet it is the ALS degree (Doctor, RN or paramedic) that allows the provider to follow the NRP guidelines.

    I agree with DWKL1, this thread has gone off topic. Lets keep it on topic.

    #1292130

    2scents
    Participant

    To answer the OPs questions.

    You probably meant if the patient is experiencing symptoms of a heart attack, (as this can only be diagnosed either by paramedics or in a hospital).

    I would say no, people usually care about themselves. When they believe they are experiencing what might be a health related emergency they usually seek help from whoever is better equipped and trained.

    A patient experiencing signs or symptoms of what can possibly be a cardiac event really has three options to get diagnosis and treatment (in NYC), 911, Hatzalah or go by car. any other bridge service will help with measuring your blood pressure and even call 911 for you. Yet what this patient really requires is early diagnostics and transport.

    #1292154

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    2scents

    the question is do they have a right to a personal preference
    “everyone has their own personal preference. Some people prefer not to go to the hospital at all, or to call a cab. ”

    I agree completely! that is precisely my point. and those who want a women only group should have that option too.

    Granted this group should know their limitations, and perhaps may need to revamped. But in theroy at least, if soem women want a women only group for soem situations they shoudl have that.

    Now some may say that even those who want a woman only group shouldnt have one. The reason for why they shoudlnt have one is a side issue tznius, women shouldnt be visible, women shouldnt be accomodated, women arent as good, we already have hatzola, it would be confusing and lead to mistakes, some of these may be valid concerns . but the bottom line is a simple question :

    “should Women have the option of calling a women only group in some situations?
    Period. yes or no?”

    My question is not what YOU would prefer if you were a woman in such a situation. It is do you feel SOME WOMEN (not all) should have the opportunity (NOT BE FORCED) to call a woman only group

    #1292160

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    2scents,

    Your missing basic facts, EN does not transport, they call 9-1-1 when they believe the patient would require transport or more advanced care

    Thank you for finally clearly answering that question! The fact that they do not provide transport should be clearly noted on their Web page and other materials; that is a significant piece of information and can cause a lot of confusion. I think they should also instruct patients to call emergency services (Hatzola or 911) themselves before they arrive if they believe there is a medical emergency… just like your physician would do.

    #1292176

    2scents
    Participant

    ubiquitin – I agree.

    But I believe having same gender personal as a bridge is a really minor detail when someone really needs help. they would probably be more focused on getting a better facility, better doctors and people that are able to navigate the health care system and get things done. As I mentioned the higher the acuity is, the less people tend to focus on some details (such as gender) that would otherwise seem significant to another individual, this is probably true for male and female patients.

    your question has a simple answer, I would want whoever I believe can better help me at the time of need. I have very rarely seen anyone being uncomfortable with a provider that is of opposite gender in time of an emergency. If this were not an emergency some might take minor details such as gender of the provider into consideration.

    #1292299

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I know of at least one case where a woman was injured and did not call Hatzolah because of the humiliation of being treated by a man.

    #1292172

    agutyar
    Participant

    I don’t know what’s doing in the U.S. or in the rest of Israel, but here in Jerusalem I have always had the top women doctors and when in a hospital and a male doctor came to examine me, I always refused and they sent a woman. But if there would not be a woman doctor, then what can you do? Then there is no choice. I had a small growth removed a coupled of years ago and my surgeon, oncologist and all the other doctors were woman. During radiation I insisted on only women technologists and this got them very angry (Haddassah Ein Kerem). I told them, “This is my body and I will decide who sees it and touches it I have enough problems right now and you don’t have to add to them.” They were furious, said I was obsessed and fanatic and I don’t know what else. But I got what I wanted. This did not add to their love of chareidim, but anyway they hate us and what do I care? There were always women on duty and it was a chutzpah gedola to send in a man. One time they wanted to send me an Arab man and of course I refused . The Leftist secretary misunderstood and turned red like a tomato and was almost steaming. “I can’t stand your prejudice” she said, almost chocking from anger and shock, and her love of all mankind. I told her that I didn’t mind at all if she sent an Arab woman.

    Women’s rights, where are you?

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