Does ????? ????? Really Come?
- This topic has 54 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 1 month ago by zaltzvasser.
March 22, 2013 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #608737
At the Pesach Seder, by ????, we were always told as kids that ????? ????? drinks wine from his cup.
Is that true?
What is the source?March 23, 2013 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1071239
I looked into it when I was in high school, and I didn’t find a mekor earlier than the Belzer rebbe, if i remember correctly. I think that the ??? says that one should open the door for ???? ???? to symbolize the ??? ???????, and ????? ?? i.e. the ?????, Eliyahu Hanovi should come. I don’t think he means to the ???, he means to be ???? on the ?????, bby”a.
I guess whoever says ???? ??? when they open the door is expected a visitor of some sort. Yekkes don’t say it.
And even if he does come, I do not think he drinks. But this is my opinion. No mekor.March 23, 2013 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1071240old manParticipant
No.March 24, 2013 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1071241Torah613TorahParticipant
I learned from Mordechai Schmutter’s book that he doesn’t really come.March 24, 2013 2:36 am at 2:36 am #1071242
Does that mean I’ve been lied to all my childhood?
What is the difference between that, and ??????, the ???? saying on their holiday that someone comes down the chimney?March 24, 2013 2:39 am at 2:39 am #1071243popa_bar_abbaParticipant
What is the difference between that, and ??????, the ???? saying on their holiday that someone comes down the chimney?
What’s the difference between us saying mashiach will come, and the goyim lehavdil saying Jesus will come again. Or the yennem goyim saying the 13th imam.March 24, 2013 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1071244WIYMember
He comes by brissim. Don’t know a source for Pesach though.March 24, 2013 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1071245kwaikerMember
Virginia, there really is an angel.March 24, 2013 3:00 am at 3:00 am #1071246
popa- “What’s the difference between us saying mashiach will come, and the goyim lehavdil saying Jesus will come again. Or the yennem goyim saying the 13th imam”
The difference is that Mashiach will be an Observant Jew, and not Chrisatian and not an Imam. But anyhow, you’re dodging my question.
WIY- To say they confused them both is a stretch.
kwaiker- LOL. But seriously, is this made up?March 24, 2013 3:02 am at 3:02 am #1071247SaysMeMember
i assume the ‘source’ is filling a cup of wine right before or after we open the door, and not drinking it, but it being the kos shel eliyahu’March 24, 2013 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1071248WIYMember
I don’t think that anyone says Eliyahu comes but rather that we hope that he will be there to herald the coming of moshiach as we read in this weeks haftorah. I think its a misunderstanding.March 24, 2013 3:22 am at 3:22 am #1071249
SaysMe- Yeah, the Mishna B’rura mentions in ???? ?? ?”? ?
that we pour one extra cup and call it ‘Kos Shel Eliyahu Hanavi’ to allude that we believe that just like we were redeemed from Mitzrayim, Hashem will redeem us again, and send Eliyahu to inform us.
That’s a far cry from saying he comes and drinks from the cup. Unless it is a Medrish or Kabbalah or something.March 24, 2013 5:01 am at 5:01 am #1071250ShalomToYouMember
For a detailed arichus on the inyan see Vayaged Yaakov L’leil Pesach
A few points:
1) The Aruch Hashulchan brings the Minhag to say Baruch Haba at the opening of the door
2)It is well known that tzadikim throughout the generations merited to see Eliyahu HaNavi at the Seder, I personally, as a descendent of R’ Mordechai Banet, have a Kabbala that one year at the Seder when the door was opened his ten-year old daughter asked him “Who is that old Yid with the white beard?”. “Shhh” he answered, but it was too late. She passed away that year.
3) Also it’s brought from the Chiddushei HaRim that he marveled at the greatness of the Noda Be’Yehuda that even when he was old and infirm he trudged down many steps to walk Eliyahu HaNavi to the door. The Chiddushei HaRim said that to believe with perfect faith that Eliyahu comes is a higher madreiga than actually seeing him
4) It’s an unfortunate tendency of this generation to ask for a Mekor on accepted Minhagim that Tzadikim have been doing for hundreds of years. Yes, certain shtusim have crept into practice. For example the ‘Muzhinka Dance’ with the broom that originated by the Christians. But anything that we have Mesora on is in itself a Mekor
5) I did not see anything on whether Eiyahu drinks from the Kos. It would seem that if we put a Kos in his honor that he should take a sip. But I’m not certain of thatMarch 24, 2013 6:57 am at 6:57 am #1071251
I’m not either certain of thatMarch 24, 2013 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1071252eXISTENTIALFISHMember
Eliyahu as a Malach certainly does show up to every Pesach seder, The Kos is a physical object that the malach can occupy in order to manifest in this physical world. It is similar to the Kisie shel Eliyahu at brises. Obviously no wine is drunk, as malachim don’t eat. Whether a person has the sensitivity to see, or perceive Eliyahu’s presence is an extremely personal situation, but it does help to know what to look for.March 24, 2013 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1071253thecommissionerParticipant
I heard a great vort.
Even though Eliyahu Hanavi won the war against Baal at Har HaCarmel, the Jews still went back to Avodah Zorah. Eliyahu then asked Hashem to take his life. Hashem then told Eliyahu Hanavi, “you gave up hope on the Jewish people, so now you will have to visit them at the Seder, and at the Bris Millah”. The very two things that almost every single Jew, religious or not does.March 24, 2013 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1071254shmoolik 1Participant
quoting from the Haggada of Rav Kasher the minhag of the Maharal(translated) After Bentching pour fourth cup of wine to all and an additional one in “honor” of Eliyahu placed in the center the baal ha bais drinks it after the Hallel Ha gadiol to be yotzei the fifth cup then opens the door in honor of Eliyahu and then begin to say ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???
followed by ???? ????March 24, 2013 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1071255WolfishMusingsParticipant
Does it really matter?
If I could prove to you that Eliyahu does not come to each and every Seder, would you stop pouring his cup?
The WolfMarch 24, 2013 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1071256
Of course it matters.
I wouldn’t lie and say “Oh look at the bubbles….”March 27, 2013 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1071257
I don’t remember where, but I had a ???? from ??????? (I think at the end of the first ??? but I can’t remember exactly where) that ????? ????? cannot fly (or disapparate). If so, it would be pretty difficult for him to attend every seder, no?March 28, 2013 3:15 am at 3:15 am #1071258chez11Member
How, then, does Eliyahu Hanavi attend every Bris Milah?
Or do you doubt that too?March 28, 2013 3:21 am at 3:21 am #1071259
Brachos 4b – Eliyahu Hanavi Files in 4 flights.March 28, 2013 3:52 am at 3:52 am #1071260mylogic37Participant
yekke2 you do not have a clue!! Yekke’s do say this! To think someone with a screen name like yekke2 just says outright lies in a public forum misrepresenting the minhagim of yek’s is a bit concerning.
Now after my little rant… Are there some yeks that do not say this? I do not know but I know many many yeks that do say this!!March 28, 2013 4:48 am at 4:48 am #1071261no longer need seminaryMember
yekke, you watch too much hpMarch 28, 2013 5:01 am at 5:01 am #1071262shmoolik 1Participant
the reason you have 2 sedarim in galus is that Elyahu can get to all the sedorim at least once
actually he brings the geula and we expect of him to bring us back to our land even if we are not always inclined to do so ourselves preferring Mitzrayim over the promised Land we wait for him instead of going on our own and then argue did he actually come to the door do we let him in and follow him to Eretz Yisroel or we just wait another year or centuryMarch 28, 2013 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1071263
Thanks guys for all your support!!
mylogic – Dunno where the logic went to, but I can tell you that none of the yekkes i know say Boruch Habo, and in the Yekkishe hagodos it doesn’t say it. (There are two types of Yekkes, frankfurt and berlin, so there could be different minhagim.)
But I checked with some non related Yekkes (so i am sure it is not a family thing) and they don’t say it.
need seminary help – what has HP got to do with anything?March 28, 2013 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1071264frummy in the tummyParticipant
He comes and sticks toys in your socks if you stole the afikoman.March 29, 2013 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1071265no longer need seminaryMember
u said eliyahu disaparrates. so im telling you that you watch way too much harry potterMarch 29, 2013 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1071266
Oh, i getit lol.
No, I used to think that Eliyohu could just disappear and reappear from one place to the next, but couldn’t think of a better word for it so i just used “disapparate”.
BTW, for the record, i have never watched the Harry Potter films. Only read the book and chazered them. ??? ?? ????? ??March 29, 2013 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1071267
Yes, Virginia, Eliyahu Hanavi DOES come to the Sedarim.March 29, 2013 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1071268March 29, 2013 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1071269ChiefMember
Thanks!April 3, 2015 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1071270JosephParticipant
If you make a Bris at the Seder Eliyahu HaNavi will have double reasons to visit.April 3, 2015 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1071271IvduEsHashemBsimchaParticipant
I have heard Rav Schachter say that there is absolutely no mekor for saying that eliyahu comes, and that to say that to children is l’havdil like christians telling their kids santa claus comes on christmas (Rav Schahcter’s own example).April 3, 2015 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1071272☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I used to think that way too, until I found a mekor. I don’t remember where I saw it, but some mekoros were mentioned earlier in the thread.April 3, 2015 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1071273JosephParticipant
Chidushei Maharz Binga, a talmid muvhik of the Maharil, writes that he saw people pour a glass of wine and call it Kos Shel Eliyahu and that a possible reason for this is since we are expecting him to come and he will need wine for the Arba Kosos.
Rav Moshe Chagiz writes that the reason for Kos Shel Eliyahu was similar to the reason we prepare a special chair for Eliyahu Hanavi at a bris milah. Just as Eliyahu Hanavi witnesses that the bris is performed, here too, on Pesach, Eliyahu Hanavi is to witness that the Korban Pesach is done properly. The Korban Pesach is dependent on milah, since the halacha is that only someone with a bris milah can eat the Korban Pesach.April 7, 2015 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1071274147Participant
At the Pesach Seder, by ????, we were always told as kids that ????? ????? drinks wine from his cup. this is absolutely true, because when I picked up Eliyohu haNovie’s cup the next morning to make Kiddush, the contents had been drunk, and the cup was full when we had last looked in it.April 7, 2015 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1071275yerushalmi in exileParticipant
first of all ????? ????? can appear in 2 ways, when he comes in “the flesh”, like a ???? he is bound by the rules of a body, and can eat etc. the ???? says he cannot come on ??? because of the ???? problem. however he can also come as a ???? like we say ????? ???? ?????, then he is not bound by all the rule, and can be in more than one place at once.
second of all the ???? to open the door after benching at the seder has other reasons as well the ??? ???? says that it is a ??? ????? ???that was eaten in ??? ??? and was ???? to take out of the house, but after benching they would leave the houses and go up to the roof.
thirdly i can list many things you learned as a kid that are dead wrong!!April 7, 2015 3:55 am at 3:55 am #1071276
Whether or not he does, I believe it is our fervent hope that he WILL come, and therefore as with any choshuveh guest whom I hope will show up, I prepare for him. If he does in fact come through the door, his first kos will be ready. I can always add in the rest.April 7, 2015 5:29 am at 5:29 am #1071278screwdriverdelightParticipant
So naturally you have a kos ready for him all year round.April 7, 2015 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1071279
thirdly i can list many things you learned as a kid that are dead wrong!!
Go on then. Here.April 7, 2015 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1071280screwdriverdelightParticipantApril 7, 2015 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1071281
Joseph, are you talking about as Bris at night or a Seder by day?April 7, 2015 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1071282
Scared driver : nope and you’re right, I should. But you know what I DO do???? Every erev shabbos I set up 2 more candles than I need to bensch licht on, “just in case” I should have an unexpected orachas. We do this every week. And yes, I frequently have EXPECTED guests, but most of the ladies light at home.April 9, 2015 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1071283
eXISTENTIAL, that is dangerous stuff.April 11, 2015 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1071284writersoulParticipant
Very cool thing I learned in high school-
There is a well known experiment called the Asch conformity experiment in which subjects are placed in a room with several other people (all planted by the researcher) and all are asked which of several lines displayed is longest. When all of the confederates would pick a line that was clearly not longest, even when the person was sure the correct answer was different he would still pick the one chosen by the other in the room.
How did Solomon Asch conceive of this experiment? Back when little Shloime Asch was a seven year old boy in Poland he stayed up until the end of his first Seder and was told by his grandmother to watch the kos of Eliyahu because he was going to come and drink from it. He kept watching it and watching it until he was convinced that the cup was emptier because he was told it would be. After he grew up and became a well known social psychologist, he became intrigued by what has caused this feeling in him and created the conformity experiment.
My grandmother actually used to do that sometimes but she would jiggle the table first- maybe when I grow up that will be the next experiment.
/endnerdrantApril 12, 2015 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1071285
My children asked if he really drinks from it. I told them, the more you shake the table the more he drinks.April 12, 2015 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1071286Little FroggieParticipant
I heard that one shouldn’t say an untruth to a child..
Let them know that he indeed visits sedorim, by big tzadikim and worthy individuals he is visible and actually partakes.. To us small creatures, we know of his presence but cannot physically see..April 12, 2015 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1071287
But do we?April 12, 2015 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1071288Little FroggieParticipant
Do we what? Do I see him? No. Do you? Could be. I have a brother who delves into Kabalah and etc., he probably does too.
Bigger people are merited to greet him. And bigger people are merited to get a greeting in return. Again not me, by any stretch of imagination.
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