- This topic has 54 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by .
-
Posts
-
At the Pesach Seder, by ????, we were always told as kids that ????? ????? drinks wine from his cup.
Is that true?
What is the source?
I looked into it when I was in high school, and I didn’t find a mekor earlier than the Belzer rebbe, if i remember correctly. I think that the ??? says that one should open the door for ???? ???? to symbolize the ??? ???????, and ????? ?? i.e. the ?????, Eliyahu Hanovi should come. I don’t think he means to the ???, he means to be ???? on the ?????, bby”a.
I guess whoever says ???? ??? when they open the door is expected a visitor of some sort. Yekkes don’t say it.
And even if he does come, I do not think he drinks. But this is my opinion. No mekor.
No.
I learned from Mordechai Schmutter’s book that he doesn’t really come.
What is the difference between that, and ??????, the ???? saying on their holiday that someone comes down the chimney?
What’s the difference between us saying mashiach will come, and the goyim lehavdil saying Jesus will come again. Or the yennem goyim saying the 13th imam.
Talmud
He comes by brissim. Don’t know a source for Pesach though.
Virginia, there really is an angel.
i assume the ‘source’ is filling a cup of wine right before or after we open the door, and not drinking it, but it being the kos shel eliyahu’
Talmud
I don’t think that anyone says Eliyahu comes but rather that we hope that he will be there to herald the coming of moshiach as we read in this weeks haftorah. I think its a misunderstanding.
For a detailed arichus on the inyan see Vayaged Yaakov L’leil Pesach
A few points:
1) The Aruch Hashulchan brings the Minhag to say Baruch Haba at the opening of the door
2)It is well known that tzadikim throughout the generations merited to see Eliyahu HaNavi at the Seder, I personally, as a descendent of R’ Mordechai Banet, have a Kabbala that one year at the Seder when the door was opened his ten-year old daughter asked him “Who is that old Yid with the white beard?”. “Shhh” he answered, but it was too late. She passed away that year.
3) Also it’s brought from the Chiddushei HaRim that he marveled at the greatness of the Noda Be’Yehuda that even when he was old and infirm he trudged down many steps to walk Eliyahu HaNavi to the door. The Chiddushei HaRim said that to believe with perfect faith that Eliyahu comes is a higher madreiga than actually seeing him
4) It’s an unfortunate tendency of this generation to ask for a Mekor on accepted Minhagim that Tzadikim have been doing for hundreds of years. Yes, certain shtusim have crept into practice. For example the ‘Muzhinka Dance’ with the broom that originated by the Christians. But anything that we have Mesora on is in itself a Mekor
5) I did not see anything on whether Eiyahu drinks from the Kos. It would seem that if we put a Kos in his honor that he should take a sip. But I’m not certain of that
Eliyahu as a Malach certainly does show up to every Pesach seder, The Kos is a physical object that the malach can occupy in order to manifest in this physical world. It is similar to the Kisie shel Eliyahu at brises. Obviously no wine is drunk, as malachim don’t eat. Whether a person has the sensitivity to see, or perceive Eliyahu’s presence is an extremely personal situation, but it does help to know what to look for.
I heard a great vort.
Even though Eliyahu Hanavi won the war against Baal at Har HaCarmel, the Jews still went back to Avodah Zorah. Eliyahu then asked Hashem to take his life. Hashem then told Eliyahu Hanavi, “you gave up hope on the Jewish people, so now you will have to visit them at the Seder, and at the Bris Millah”. The very two things that almost every single Jew, religious or not does.
quoting from the Haggada of Rav Kasher the minhag of the Maharal(translated) After Bentching pour fourth cup of wine to all and an additional one in “honor” of Eliyahu placed in the center the baal ha bais drinks it after the Hallel Ha gadiol to be yotzei the fifth cup then opens the door in honor of Eliyahu and then begin to say ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???
followed by ???? ????
Does it really matter?
If I could prove to you that Eliyahu does not come to each and every Seder, would you stop pouring his cup?
The Wolf
I don’t remember where, but I had a ???? from ??????? (I think at the end of the first ??? but I can’t remember exactly where) that ????? ????? cannot fly (or disapparate). If so, it would be pretty difficult for him to attend every seder, no?
How, then, does Eliyahu Hanavi attend every Bris Milah?
Or do you doubt that too?
yekke2 you do not have a clue!! Yekke’s do say this! To think someone with a screen name like yekke2 just says outright lies in a public forum misrepresenting the minhagim of yek’s is a bit concerning.
Now after my little rant… Are there some yeks that do not say this? I do not know but I know many many yeks that do say this!!
yekke, you watch too much hp
the reason you have 2 sedarim in galus is that Elyahu can get to all the sedorim at least once
actually he brings the geula and we expect of him to bring us back to our land even if we are not always inclined to do so ourselves preferring Mitzrayim over the promised Land we wait for him instead of going on our own and then argue did he actually come to the door do we let him in and follow him to Eretz Yisroel or we just wait another year or century
Thanks guys for all your support!!
mylogic – Dunno where the logic went to, but I can tell you that none of the yekkes i know say Boruch Habo, and in the Yekkishe hagodos it doesn’t say it. (There are two types of Yekkes, frankfurt and berlin, so there could be different minhagim.)
But I checked with some non related Yekkes (so i am sure it is not a family thing) and they don’t say it.
need seminary help – what has HP got to do with anything?
He comes and sticks toys in your socks if you stole the afikoman.
u said eliyahu disaparrates. so im telling you that you watch way too much harry potter
Oh, i getit lol.
No, I used to think that Eliyohu could just disappear and reappear from one place to the next, but couldn’t think of a better word for it so i just used “disapparate”.
BTW, for the record, i have never watched the Harry Potter films. Only read the book and chazered them. ??? ?? ????? ??
Yes, Virginia, Eliyahu Hanavi DOES come to the Sedarim.
Goodbye-
Thanks!
If you make a Bris at the Seder Eliyahu HaNavi will have double reasons to visit.
I have heard Rav Schachter say that there is absolutely no mekor for saying that eliyahu comes, and that to say that to children is l’havdil like christians telling their kids santa claus comes on christmas (Rav Schahcter’s own example).
I used to think that way too, until I found a mekor. I don’t remember where I saw it, but some mekoros were mentioned earlier in the thread.
Chidushei Maharz Binga, a talmid muvhik of the Maharil, writes that he saw people pour a glass of wine and call it Kos Shel Eliyahu and that a possible reason for this is since we are expecting him to come and he will need wine for the Arba Kosos.
Rav Moshe Chagiz writes that the reason for Kos Shel Eliyahu was similar to the reason we prepare a special chair for Eliyahu Hanavi at a bris milah. Just as Eliyahu Hanavi witnesses that the bris is performed, here too, on Pesach, Eliyahu Hanavi is to witness that the Korban Pesach is done properly. The Korban Pesach is dependent on milah, since the halacha is that only someone with a bris milah can eat the Korban Pesach.
At the Pesach Seder, by ????, we were always told as kids that ????? ????? drinks wine from his cup. this is absolutely true, because when I picked up Eliyohu haNovie’s cup the next morning to make Kiddush, the contents had been drunk, and the cup was full when we had last looked in it.
first of all ????? ????? can appear in 2 ways, when he comes in “the flesh”, like a ???? he is bound by the rules of a body, and can eat etc. the ???? says he cannot come on ??? because of the ???? problem. however he can also come as a ???? like we say ????? ???? ?????, then he is not bound by all the rule, and can be in more than one place at once.
second of all the ???? to open the door after benching at the seder has other reasons as well the ??? ???? says that it is a ??? ????? ???that was eaten in ??? ??? and was ???? to take out of the house, but after benching they would leave the houses and go up to the roof.
thirdly i can list many things you learned as a kid that are dead wrong!!
Whether or not he does, I believe it is our fervent hope that he WILL come, and therefore as with any choshuveh guest whom I hope will show up, I prepare for him. If he does in fact come through the door, his first kos will be ready. I can always add in the rest.
So naturally you have a kos ready for him all year round.
thirdly i can list many things you learned as a kid that are dead wrong!!
Go on then. Here.
Joseph, are you talking about as Bris at night or a Seder by day?
Scared driver : nope and you’re right, I should. But you know what I DO do???? Every erev shabbos I set up 2 more candles than I need to bensch licht on, “just in case” I should have an unexpected orachas. We do this every week. And yes, I frequently have EXPECTED guests, but most of the ladies light at home.
eXISTENTIAL, that is dangerous stuff.
Very cool thing I learned in high school-
There is a well known experiment called the Asch conformity experiment in which subjects are placed in a room with several other people (all planted by the researcher) and all are asked which of several lines displayed is longest. When all of the confederates would pick a line that was clearly not longest, even when the person was sure the correct answer was different he would still pick the one chosen by the other in the room.
How did Solomon Asch conceive of this experiment? Back when little Shloime Asch was a seven year old boy in Poland he stayed up until the end of his first Seder and was told by his grandmother to watch the kos of Eliyahu because he was going to come and drink from it. He kept watching it and watching it until he was convinced that the cup was emptier because he was told it would be. After he grew up and became a well known social psychologist, he became intrigued by what has caused this feeling in him and created the conformity experiment.
My grandmother actually used to do that sometimes but she would jiggle the table first- maybe when I grow up that will be the next experiment.
/endnerdrant
My children asked if he really drinks from it. I told them, the more you shake the table the more he drinks.
I heard that one shouldn’t say an untruth to a child..
Let them know that he indeed visits sedorim, by big tzadikim and worthy individuals he is visible and actually partakes.. To us small creatures, we know of his presence but cannot physically see..
But do we?
Do we what? Do I see him? No. Do you? Could be. I have a brother who delves into Kabalah and etc., he probably does too.
Bigger people are merited to greet him. And bigger people are merited to get a greeting in return. Again not me, by any stretch of imagination.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.