Does a BTL help??
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- This topic has 87 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 5 months ago by Pashuteh Yid.
October 7, 2010 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #700288
New2, here are some of your posts:
“Hi, I’m a bachur in yeshiva and have been looking during last few weeks into different options towards college. I can possibly get a btl from past yeshiva credits. I know there is (ARE) a lot of opinions if this works or not. I know there are a lot of guys in same parsha contemplating between working towards a real BA (with using yeshiva credits) or settle (SETTLING) for a BTL. Please post if you have applied to grad school, which one, for what and what happened. All detailed reply’s (REPLIES) will be appreciated. THANX!!! “
“I agree with you that going to grad school without a basic command of the english language is atrocious. I like to think I have a decent holding (NEVER SAW WORD USED IN THIS WAY), but would appreciate greatly if the yeshiva’s (YESHIVAS) would have offered courses on the side, in this area. Btw, any college grad’s (GRADS) that read my other posts in this blog, how is my english (CAPITALIZE)? “
I made a few corrections to the English which are in parentheses. (I need to learn the italicizing procedure on this blog, but until then I am using caps.)October 7, 2010 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #700289
Thanks, I see I need to brush up a drop. B”h i went to a very good high school but i guess if you barely read too much English for a few years you lose a lot. . .October 7, 2010 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #700290YW BandMember
Not always does Touro accept the FULL 48 credits. Especially for a girl who only gets 24, she has to take history, art classes etc. Regards to scholarships, it’s not that easy either (academic is the best). L’mase Touro is a business and becoming a University soon!!! This will probably mean a higher tuition but a better resume:)October 8, 2010 4:51 am at 4:51 am #700292gradschoolMember
After reading what pusheta yid wrote I gotta “advocate” for you.I am currently in graduate school where I write papers all the time. I actually did notice that your English throughout the blog is amazing. I think this skill will help you have an easier time writing all your papers throughout college(especially if you take the BA route)and maybe even help othersOctober 8, 2010 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #700293jay11691Member
I used my BTS (Bachelors of Talmudic Studies) from BMG (i.e. Lakewood) to apply to Graduate Architecture programs. I was accepted to about half- including some that are pretty well regarded.
The degree itself is neither positive nor negative when applying to a program that has no previous familiarity with it (as in my case). Instead, the admittance department will look closely for other clues that show your potential for success. So be sure to make sure the rest of your application package is highly professional and impressive (GRE scores, personal essay, letters of recommendation etc.).
However, where previously accepted BTL/BTS students have left a negative impression on the school (this may be true in the law or business programs), you will definitely have to work harder to convince the school to accept you. Here, a very impressive LSAT or GMAT score may help.
Incidentally, some previous comments have debated your writing skills. An important point to remember is that even without obvious grammatical errors, writing may still have Yeshivish characteristics. These are implicit in the sentence structure and the expression of ideas and are hard to pinpoint- especially in a limited forum such as this. Needless to say, your writing suffers from this flaw. A good way to begin the education process may be taking a Writing 101 class at your local college.
Best of LuckOctober 8, 2010 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #700294
Dear Gradschool, thanks for the kinds words. The truth is that I already finished college and grad school myself, so I went through the same things you are going through, now. There is really nothing that helps writing as much as actually doing it over and over again.
I had a good elementary and HS education which helps, and we spent much time going through all the rules of grammar and punctuation. However, over the years I forgot some of those rules, like how to make the correct plural and possessive forms of words which end in vowels, consonants or, most confusing, in the letter “s”. I sometimes go to online grammar sites to remember.
The best advice that I ever saw was a 2-page guide to writing which somebody put out in my college that reinterpreted the rules of punctuation. Instead of worrying about rules, it showed how each punctuation mark changes your tone of voice. Some whisper, some talk and some shout. You modulate your voice with the appropriate punctuation marks. That system opened my eyes. If I find that anybody has put it online, I will post it, Bli Neder.
But the most important thing is to proofread your work multiple times. I read that even pros do it 4-5 times. You will often catch run-on sentences, or missing punctuation marks that slur words together.
As far as vocabulary goes, the only real way to build it is to read and read. There are some good books I used for the SAT such as Norman Lewis’s Word Power for Better Meaning. These go into the Greek and Latin roots of many words, so you can figure out new words which you have not seen previously. He has good jokes and it is fun to read.
Hatzlacha Rabba with your career.October 8, 2010 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #700295not IMember
Regarding getting a job in the market today from a secon rate college- The Frum firms/ companies don’t neccesarily seem to be too picky!
No opinion if that is good or bad!October 8, 2010 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #700296
Grad School; Thanks for the encouragement! Pashiter, I would definately read the Norman Lewis book. Do you own it?October 8, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #700297
I bought one recently for someone, and I believe you can get it at Barnes and Nobles for less than 10 dollars, maybe 7 or 8. I don’t remember.October 8, 2010 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #700298squeakParticipant
Barnes and Nobles? Really?October 8, 2010 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #700299
I found a site which may have been the paper article I saw years ago:
This was also helpful:
Mods, can these be posted?October 8, 2010 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #700300gradschoolMember
There is also a great website called owl Purdue.It teaches how to write, some basic grammar rules,and how to format papers.The field that I am majoring in makes us write all our papers in APA style. So, whenever I write my papers I keep this website open and I always refer back to it in regards to formatting. New2thescene, you’ll get the hang of it when you start.Don’t be nervous at all. Start school and take it day by day at a time……October 8, 2010 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #700301
pashuteh, no they cantOctober 8, 2010 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #700302
also would not be permittedOctober 10, 2010 1:23 am at 1:23 am #700303
Very funny, Mod.October 10, 2010 1:35 am at 1:35 am #700304
Squeak, Barnes and Nobles is short for Barnes and Nobelofskystein which is a Jewish competitor to Barnes and Noble.
BTW, I see your newest hobby is echolocation. How do I make one of those things after my screen name?
It can only be done by a mod. What would you like yours to say? (squeak wasn’t given a choice in the matter.)October 10, 2010 1:53 am at 1:53 am #700305
Mod, I want mine to say, Modern Chareidi Zionist.October 10, 2010 1:55 am at 1:55 am #700306
Thanks very much. It must be so much fun to be a Mod.October 10, 2010 1:56 am at 1:56 am #700307volvieMember
Wouldn’t it be simpler for it to just say confused?October 10, 2010 1:58 am at 1:58 am #700308
Good one, Volvie.
Mods, how much does the job pay?
Depending on the experience, its competitive with engineering.October 10, 2010 2:02 am at 2:02 am #700309
Well, how does one get the experience? Is there a Mods college?
There is Eastern Moderator University (EMU) and SMU.October 10, 2010 2:12 am at 2:12 am #700310
Oh, I never knew SMU was Southern Moderators University. When I was a kid I thought it stood for Southern Methodist University. The mods must be great football players.October 11, 2010 6:36 am at 6:36 am #700311
[Mods, I’d appreciate knowing your HTML code for quotes.]
Sacrilege, you stated, “In order to get accepted to Law School you need a BA and you need to pass the LSATs. . .the BA really doesnt matter (you can even have a BA from one of those 1 year fly by night programs). The main focus is the scores on the LSATs, so if you are considering Law BTL is more than perfect.”
This is very bad advice.
Law school takes three years and leaves most students seriously in debt (at least $150,000). The conventional wisdom for a long time has been that if you want the best chance of finding a job after graduation, you go to a Tier 1 (top 50 ranked) school.
These days, with the economy down and therefore less legal work needed by business, many people are suggesting that prospective students consider law school only if they get accepted in one of the top 14 (“T14”) schools.
Please take a look at the latest law school rankings at http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings
Admission to all of these schools is EXTREMELY competitive and all of them are highly selective. There is no need for them to accept someone with a high LSAT and a questionable undergraduate degree when they have dozens of similar applicants with stellar bachelors degree credentials.
I realize I am new to the Coffee Room but I firmly believe that advice given here affects people’s lives and should therefore be carefully considered before being dispensed.
N.B. those stellar attorneys and judges from the Orthodox community (e.g. Mukasey, Scheindlin, Brafman, Schmidt, et al) all went to regular colleges for undergraduate degrees.
If you really want to be a lawyer, perhaps you should consider this “BTL” to be “batul” and get a BA, BS or related degree from an accredited college.October 11, 2010 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #700312RSRHMember
Homeowner, well said!
I am a second year law student with an undergrad degree from Touro. I took my undergraduate work seriously, and made sure to become very capable of writing, researching and discussiong issues in an academic manner. A BTL cannot, and I stress again, CANNOT prepare you properly for law school and a legal career. If you are going to law school just to get a decent paycheck after you graduate (and these days even that is a remote possibility), I would strongly urge you to look for another profession. Three years of little sleep, much stress, and huge debt,is simply a foolish path to take unless you are genuinely committed to the legal profession as a valuable pursuit – not just a meal ticket.
If you want to excel, it is extremely important that you have a broad liberal arts background. Understand the theory behind the law, politics, society, economics, ect. Learn to write well reasoned, well researched pieces of scholarship. I see the BTL guys in my school (BTW, the school stopped seriously considering any BTL applicants this past year), they struggle, and ultimately are generally not the most successful or productive bunch in terms of their legal skills. They may know how to think, but they dont have the vocabulary, or general knowledge needed to translate their well developed logical minds into good legal thought and practice in a practical non-yeshivah context.
Please note, I dont say this as someone without a yeshivah background. I attended a very elite yeshiva in Meah Shearim, as well as another respected yeshiva in America. I am also studying for yadin yadin smichah. In my experience, it is my broad knowledge obtained as a college student that serves me best in my academic pursuits. And my ability to study law effectively only enhances my ability to dissent complex issues in choshen mishpat, and even see them in new ways due to my exposure to many other ways of thinking about and dealing with novel legal questions.October 11, 2010 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #700313
Homeowner – Thanks for your concern on behalf of the readership.
Having gone through the process I know what it is like.
As a side note a classmate of my brothers received his BTL and went on to Harvard, so there is precedence.October 11, 2010 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #700314
for italics, often used for quotes:
<strong>yourtexthere</strong>October 11, 2010 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #700315yeshivaguy1Participant
RSRH what I would like to is how your school views touro. is it considered first rate or second rate. did people who went to top schools have an easier time getting in. how is your school ranked. I am trying to figure out if going to touro will put me at a disadvantage compared to going to a top school. I would like to one day get into a top mba program and I’m hoping to be able to do it with a touro degree. Anyone else with experience using a touro degree to get into graduate school please let me know.October 11, 2010 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #700316Shouldnt be hereMember
And can you pleaase tell us what Allowed markup: a blockquote code em strong ul ol li.
You can also put code in between backtick ( ` ) characters
means?October 11, 2010 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #700317pascha bchochmaParticipant
yeshivaguy1 – I’ve heard from reliable sources, that Touro is fast catching up with YU in terms of graduates from the law school getting into the best programs (even yale and harvard)October 11, 2010 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #700318RSRHMember
Yehsiva Guy: I don’t that they look down on Touro degrees per se. However, the reality is that grades are inflated in Touro and there is no strict grading curve. Consequently, if you graduate, lets say, with a 3.95 GPA from Touro (I say this from experience), the transcripts sent to law schools you apply to wont place you in the tope 1-5% of your class. Your more likely to be somewhere around 25% (idh the exact breakdown). So while a Touro degree may not be a disadvantage, you will likely face the disadvantage of a hight GPA not being a good supporting supplement for your LSAT score. Often an unusually high GPA will get you into a school where your LSAT is below average, but with a Touro GPA you may well lose out on that chance.October 11, 2010 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #700319MichelleNYMember
Just had to say this. I skipped college and got a part-time job to keep busy during my year in seminary. After 8 months I was promoted to a top-level position at that same company. While my friends were in college, I used to edit and sometimes even write papers for them (obviously not something I would do now, but I enjoyed it at the time). Although I sometimes wish I had the college experience and believe I would’ve enjoyed it, I have received countless compliments on my professionalism, as well as my spelling and grammar skills. My boss sometimes bypasses his assistant, a grad student majoring in English, and asks me to write letters for him. That same assistant, who is actually on her way to becoming an English teacher, gives me her papers to proofread and happens to have pretty rough grammar skills.
Just saying, you can have a college degree and be a dud (side-note: said English major is extremely intelligent and should in no way be judged by her grammar skills). It is also possible to get a good and decent paying job without one.
New2, I was going to say you use apostrophes incorrectly, but I see Pashuteh Yid has already taken care of that. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.October 12, 2010 4:42 am at 4:42 am #700320
Michelleny, I appreciate your bracha. I must say that seeing from your other posts, your frumness level is high, is it proper to give me, a boy, a blessing?? Lol,October 13, 2010 5:31 am at 5:31 am #700321
Yes, indeed, there are people with college degrees who are not very competent. And, of course, there are people who never completed college who have done extremely well.
Before you bring up names, Bill Gates did not complete college. Neither did Marc Zuckerberg.
But, let’s be very, very clear: THESE ARE RARE EXCEPTIONS.
I am delighted that you have done well so far without a university degree. I sincerely hope you continue to be successful. But I read in your post at least a hint of a suggestion that a college degree is optional these days to succeed in the job market. Such advise is, respectfully, quite misguided.
Since this is The Yeshiva World, “Ain somchim al ha ness,” i.e. “don’t rely on a miracle.”October 13, 2010 5:41 am at 5:41 am #700322myfriendMember
You DEFINITLY do NOT need a college degree these days to succeed in parnasa.October 13, 2010 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #700323
“Neither did Marc Zuckerberg”
Could that possibly be because he created Facebook while IN Harvard making BILLIONS of dollars? Yea, there is a good chance that if I made billions while in college I would’ve dropped out to.October 13, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #700324
Myfriend, really? So you recommend no college and then try your hand at business with a high school diploma? Tell me more of this game plan.
Sacrilige, Google is your friend. There is much controversy over who created Facebook including more than one lawsuit.
Marc Zuckerberg did not make billions of dollars while in Harvard. Even if he had, you missed the point. My point was tha he is an exception.October 13, 2010 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #700325
Homeowner – No Google needed I am quite familiar with the story.
The Winklevoss twins wanted to created a dating sight for Ivy League students (ConnectU) they say Zuckerburg stole their idea. How a dating sight comes to facebook, IDK. They sued Zuckerberg and the settled for 65M. They are now suing him again.
Eduardo Sevarin & Dustin Moskowitz wrote the program with Zuckerman and they later brought on Chris Hughes. Zuckerberg owns the biggest share at around 34% Sevarin and Moskowitz both hold a 5% share.October 14, 2010 1:34 am at 1:34 am #700326
Here, we are debating whether college is a necessity, or whether one can possibly make it with a high school diploma (assuming one is not going into klei kodesh). What is even harder to understand is the shita of the Chareidim in EY, where there is no HS to begin with, and secular studies ends after 7th or 8th grades.
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