Does a convert adopted by frum parents have a bashert?

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  • #1737986

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Today he is a man and wants to know whether he has a bashert that was decreed as his.

    Background:
    A baby was adopted by frum parents days after birth. Said infant was taken by hospital staff from his birth mother, who relinquished her rights, in the hospital after birth. The baby grew up in a frum home, observing Torah. He officially converted to Judaism when he was a teenager, per halacha. Today, he is a frum man. He is currently in the shidduchim parsha.

    Does he have a bashert?

    Thank you for your replies, in advance 🙂

    #1738266

    Joseph
    Participant

    Your question, effectively, is does a Ger have a bashert. And the answer, of course, is yes. When someone becomes a Ger they become, at that time, a “newborn”. And like any newborn, they have a bashert.

    #1738282

    Avi K
    Participant

    A true ger was born with a Jewish neshama. The fact that he is legally a new person (for most things – he still has to repay his creditors and his debtors still have to pay him) does not necessarily come into effect. It could also be that he loses his zivug rishon (who says that non-Jews do not have zivugim?) and gets a zivug sheni.

    #1738284

    rational
    Participant

    Worrying about a “bashert” is pointless. If you believe that HKBH runs the world, then you can assume that He knows how to work these things out. Converts of any age or social status find a partner to build a bayis ne’eman and live normal frum lives. There are no issues here to be resolved.

    #1738290

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How many of us actually marry our “bashert”?

    #1738345

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Why does it matter that the parents are “frum”. Why wouldn’t “Jewish” be enough for a Bashert?

    #1738374

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yabia: Because if a Jewish non-frum couple adopted a child, there’s virtually no chance the child was converted properly and hence remains a gentile.

    DY: How would you answer your own question?

    #1738390

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Joseph
    Do the thousands of unmarried girls have basherts ?
    How about the thousands of unmarried boys?

    #1738397

    Joseph
    Participant

    KY: Yes.

    #1738482

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Virtually no chance? Perhaps when it comes to conversion they go with Orthodox rabbi and do it kadat vekadin but in the rest of the their life they are not “frum”. You do realize that is very plausible.

    #1738525

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    YO: The reason why I specified “frum” parents was to establish that the conversion was halachically sound (e.g. based on Orthodox Jewish standards). Had I simple typed, “Jewish” parents, then the discussion could have been sidelined to whether this person was in fact Jewish today, let alone other spin offs. Thus, I included as much information as possible, in as few words as I could, to convey the question.

    #1738517

    klugeryid
    Participant

    So then Joseph, I ask you
    What’s the difference if one has a bashert Thousands of people have a bashert and don’t get married and as dy alluded to, many people get married to, not their bashert.
    So basically it’s just a question of celestial accounting?
    Curiosity?
    Or maybe if it can be proved that they don’t have one you would recommend to stay away from marrying them because it for sure won’t be the bashert?
    To that last choice he recommend paying close attention to the layning Monday morning.
    Some story about a convert named Ruth and a guy who didn’t want to marry her and an old guy who did and had some grandkids with her
    A David, a messiah, seems like that old guy did pretty good marrying that convert.
    But maybe you would argue

    #1738510

    laughing
    Participant

    of course they do. Whether they meet up or not is another story

    #1738576

    Avi K
    Participant

    Klugeryid, people have free choice. That includes rejecting one’s bashert.

    #1738578

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Can a husband and wife be Bashert but still have a rocky marriage?

    #1738579

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Lightbrite: ok I see what you mean.

    #1738608

    GRATEFULBLAC
    Participant

    I suppose in the times of Nach, everyone went to a Novi – prophet to ask who is their bashert.

    Could you imagine that today, the Novi points to some beggar in the street, there you are, that’s your bashert!

    I’m not going to marry him!

    The question of marrying a bashert as opposed to who you or your family most like to marry, is a complex one. The whole topic is really about emunah – do I really believe in marrying my bashert!

    #1738642

    yitzyk
    Participant

    Maybe the whole question is a mistake. Isn’t it possible to say that when the Gemara says that Hashem decides the Zivhugim for every fetus at conception, it is referring to ALL babies – including non-Jews? The gemara does not specify frum Jews or even Jews at all.

    If so, since HKB”H knew that the Ger would be Jewish by the time he would be ready to get married, Hashem picked out a nice Jewish girl for his Neshama.

    Just proposing a possible answer. I don’t know what the Gedolim have written about it. I have no problem being shown to be wrong. I have been right a few times in my life.

    #1739155

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Avi k
    I don’t get your comment

    #1739173

    Joseph
    Participant

    Goyim can’t have a bashert because halachicly their marriages aren’t recognized as marriages.

    #1739182

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Perhaps when it comes to conversion they go with Orthodox rabbi and do it kadat vekadin but in the rest of the their life they are not “frum”. You do realize that is very plausible.

    It’s not at all plausible. If the parents are not observant, and will therefore not raise the child to be observant, then it is impossible to convert him because it is not in his best interest to be Jewish. (Unless the biological father wishes him to be Jewish, in which case it’s not a matter of zochin.)

    #1739218

    Joseph
    Participant

    “(Unless the biological father wishes him to be Jewish, in which case it’s not a matter of zochin.)”

    What are you referring to with this point?

    #1739212

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Ok what if they are masorti. Not capital M Masorti.

    #1739300

    GRATEFULBLAC
    Participant

    “when the Gemara says that Hashem decides the Zivhugim for every fetus at conception”

    How does that fit with marrying more than 1 wife, which was prevalent in Klal Yisroel until Cheirem Rabbeinu Gershom, some 1500 years ago?

    I suppose the Mekubolim will say that the neshamoh of one’s zivug was split again and again until all the women you marry are part of the original neshama?

    Anybody got an answer to the question?

    #1739358

    Joseph
    Participant

    Are masorti shomer Shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha?

    #1739368

    DrYidd
    Participant

    do people answering this question have a brain is a better question!

    #1739393

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY: How would you answer your own question?

    That I have no idea, and neither does anyone here, so to speculate whether any subgroup marries their “bashert” is pointless.

    #1739430

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “when the Gemara says that Hashem decides the Zivhugim for every fetus at conception”

    How does that fit with marrying more than 1 wife, which was prevalent in Klal Yisroel until Cheirem Rabbeinu Gershom, some 1500 years ago?

    I don’t understand the question. Why can’t there be two bas kols – bas ploni l’ploni, and bas ploni l’ploni.

    Perhaps the second would be a zivug sheini. Then again, very possibly the first wife is also a zivug sheini.

    #1739464

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gratefulblac: What’s shver? One man can have multiple zivugim and marry them all.

    #1739465

    Basmelech1
    Participant

    Stupid question. The ger or geyores should persue shidduchim like everyone else. There is someone for everyone.

    #1739479

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    In real life, one rabbi told this convert that he had a bashert. However, this rabbi did not specify whether the bashert was assigned at birth with the bas kol.

    #1739543

    Avi K
    Participant

    Klugeryid, on June 5, 2019 9:06 am at 9:06 am you asked “Do the thousands of unmarried girls have basherts? How about the thousands of unmarried boys?”

    They rejected their basherts. The Steipler, in fact, told this to someone who asked where his was.

    #1739480

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Just listened to a shiur…. The rabbi in this shiur said that converts absolutely do not have a soulmate matched to them at birth. The rabbi said that instead, the convert’s match is selected from a pool of candidates that consists of divorcees, older singles that missed their basherts due to vanity, and other outliers. From this pool of currently unmarried candidates, Hashem selects the match that best compliments the convert.

    …I don’t know whether this rabbi’s explanation is universally accepted.

    #1739599

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Do the thousands of unmarried girls have basherts ?
    How about the thousands of unmarried boys?”

    Hmmm….. where is the shadchan?

    #1739627

    Lucy
    Participant

    Avik,
    At what point is that determined to be the reason that they’re not married. Some people just take longer than others,No?

    #1739867

    GRATEFULBLAC
    Participant

    “Hmmm….. where is the shadchan?”
    Avi K – If the Shadchan decides not to offer you a shidduch that is really your bashert then it is the Shadchan to blame. It is not always the fault of the boy or girl but of opinionated shadchonim!

    Besides as I said above the way yiddishkeit has been structured today into classes and groups that consciously or subconsciously reject each other means that it is unlikely you are going to meet your bashert. This is not the result of the boy or girl but of how life is!

    #1739871

    yehudayona
    Participant

    A few questions:

    1. If the number of boys doesn’t equal the number of girls. how can all of them have a bashert?

    2. If someone can’t get married (e.g. too low functioning, psua daka), do they not have a bashert? What if someone is born without this problem, but he develops it as a child?

    3. If a child dies R”L before reaching marriageable age, what happens to his/her bashert?

    4. If there’s no concept of marriage for non-Jews, how do you define the Noahide law regarding eishes ish?

    Edited

    #1739904

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avi K – If the Shadchan decides not to offer you a shidduch that is really your bashert then it is the Shadchan to blame.

    Who’s “the” shadchan? There’s only one in the world and he’s responsible for anyone who’s not married because they haven’t found their bashert?

    #1739903

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yehudayona,

    1. Maybe there are, but our shidduch system is set up so that they’re not looking to get married at the same time.

    2. & 3. I agree, והשתא דאתית להכי you might be right about #1, just that it’s not proof.

    4. Non Jews do have marriage, just no kiddushin or gitin.

    #1739970

    yehudayona
    Participant

    In #1, I wasn’t talking about any particular time, I was talking about total numbers. IIRC, slightly more boys are born than girls. By marriageable age, there are more girls than boys (more boys die during childhood).

    My #4 was aimed at Joseph, who said non-Jews don’t have a bashert because their marriage is not a halachic marriage. They have a concept of marriage, and as yitzyk pointed out, the gemara doesn’t specify that only Jews have a bashert.

    #1739987

    GRATEFULBLAC
    Participant

    Daas Yochid – Who’s “the” shadchan? There’s only one in the world and he’s responsible for anyone who’s not married because they haven’t found their bashert?

    Its the Shadchan that you choose to go to!

    #1740029

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They give guarantees?

    #1740031

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    IIRC, slightly more boys are born than girls. By marriageable age, there are more girls than boys (more boys die during childhood).

    Maybe the numbers are exactly even for Jews. Nobody ever did an exact study.

    #1740037

    Joseph
    Participant

    YY: Generally when the Torah or Halacha doesn’t specify, it is referring to Jews and not gentiles.

    #1740100

    levi365248
    Participant

    Lightbrite, you said you listened to a shiur on this. Which shiur was this? Who is the maggid shiur an was itonline? If yes can you provide a link, I ver much like to hear it, thank you.

    #1740223

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Levi, the shiur is by Rabbi Kin and available on YouTube.

    Title: “How to Recognize One’s Soulmate”
    May 14, 2012
    Rabbi Kin
    Torah Ohr
    Posted by 7200beverly

    Part of a lecture series titled, “The seventy most difficult questions in Judaism”

    #1740570

    yitzyk
    Participant

    “The seventy most difficult questions in Judaism” – Wow, that could keep the Coffee Room busy for quite a while!!

    #1743188

    charliehall
    Participant

    “How many of us actually marry our “bashert”?”

    I did.

    #1743187

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Are masorti shomer Shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha?”

    I know some who are. Not sure how common that is.

    OTOH I know people who drive to services at Orthodox synagogues.

    #1743223

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Avi k
    I think you missed my point
    I was just trying to prove that having / not having a bashert has zero effect on getting married.
    As we see thousands of Jews from birth who never end up married, plenty of geirim who marry, ( I personally know one who I know married a Jew from birth so that should give more complication to the question. Did that specific Jew not have a bashert? Did she have but not marry him? Did the ger have a bashert, did he just steal someone else’s bashert? ), and as pointed out nobody is ready to go on record stating that even all those that get married, married their bashert.

    So I’m not sure the point of the question.
    Whatever bashert means, it clearly does not Equate with chances for getting married.

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