July 28, 2016 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #618036
Rabbi of CrawleyParticipant
What is the point of his role… if everything is permitted and nothing forbidden (except maybe… yearning for the geulah)???????July 28, 2016 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1160987
Many reform rabbis attend the temple once a week and lead services, (the ones with a pulpit anyway)
Some then get involved in life events Briths, Marriages and deaths
many get involved in pastoral counseling (Like when someone has a crisis and is looking for God for help)
I am sure there are other things as wellJuly 28, 2016 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1160988
She is the spiritual leader of the community.July 28, 2016 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1160989
Have you ever actually met a Reform rabbi?July 28, 2016 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1160990
A reform person has said to me that she had a lady rabbi and she said that i should become one because i like learning ( i had to explain to her that as a religious jew we dont allow for lady rabbis)!!! So i guess they do whatever our rabbis do just everything wrong.July 28, 2016 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1160992
They do not “do everything wrong”. They do some things very right. In fact, they do some things better than we do them, and we would do well to acknowledge that and to try to learn from them rather than constantly criticizing.
For instance, they do chessed extremely well.July 28, 2016 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1160993
I once asked a Reform woman, who is very active in her “temple”, what her Rabbi does all day (and they make huge salaries).
The answer I got: “I wonder that all the time…”July 28, 2016 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1160994
They are heretics and must be treated as such.July 28, 2016 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1160995
OP: Yes. They perform mixed/assur marriages and safik conversions.July 28, 2016 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1160996
Well, they do weddings also, but the minhag is to sit shiva afterwards. So I guess I hear your point.July 28, 2016 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1160997
jewish feminist – are you a religious person?
Joseph – no matter how much i agree with you i cant treat them like that. i can only try bringing the jewish reform rabbis back to yidishkeit.July 28, 2016 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1160998
Their “conversions” aren’t safik. They are vadai pasul.July 28, 2016 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #1160999
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Popa, and some of those weddings may not be recognized in every state…July 29, 2016 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1161000
Dy, I’m not sure what scenario you’re referring to. But I don’t care if a state recognizes a marriage.July 29, 2016 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1161001
@DY What? Perhaps not in the state of Israel, but if by “state” you mean the US, they are valid everywhere.
The funny thing is that I am often asked by my reform friends what Orthodox rabbis do as everyone in an orthodox temple knows how to daven etc…
Everyone has their own perspective.July 29, 2016 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1161002
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
But I don’t care if a state recognizes a marriage.
Neither do I. (I do care that certain marriages are beach recognized.)
ML, true. 🙁 I should have said they perform certain marriages which used to not be recognized.July 29, 2016 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1161003
What is the point of his role… if everything is permitted and nothing forbidden (except maybe… yearning for the geulah)???????
If you really want to know, why don’t you just call one up and ask?
The WolfJuly 29, 2016 1:18 am at 1:18 am #1161004
But I don’t care if a state recognizes a marriage.
Actually, you should care, for the simple reason , lets say a couple is married reform civilly and then one of the partners becomes a BT and decides to marry someone else orthodox, but never civilly divorced the first person (They never had a Ketubah)
According to the laws of the US, only the first marriage is valid, and the second marriage is Bigamy and not validJuly 29, 2016 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1161005
As a side note, if someone gets married to someone of the same gender and then decides they want to marry someone of a differnt gender, they need to get divorced from the first party . even though halacha does recognize the first marriage, the state does and if you marry someone of a different gender without a divorce its bigamyJuly 29, 2016 1:40 am at 1:40 am #1161006
DY: ML, true. 🙁 I should have said they perform certain marriages which used to not be recognized
Me: I only realized what you meant after I posted, and as you note, today, even those marriages are recognized everywhere in the USJuly 29, 2016 10:12 am at 10:12 am #1161007
Being a cantor or rabbi in Reform is incredibly easier than in Orthodox. They’re getting paid far more money to do less work. They only leyn a few pesukim out of the parsha and they retained maybe only 20% of the siddur.July 29, 2016 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1161009
many if not most chaplins in hospitals and nursing homes are reform clergy-peopleJuly 29, 2016 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1161010
Sparkly: Yes, I am a “religious person”. Why do you ask?
Joseph: When you say “treated as such,” what do you mean exactly?
dovrosenbaum, that is false. Leining and davening are not the primary job duties of a rabbi, so it doesn’t make the job “incredibly easier” that they’ve modified the liturgy. Incidentally, 20% is a gross exaggeration and they also add English stuff, so it’s not actually as short of a service as you seem to think it is. (Actually, their services typically go an hour longer than the standard Young Israel service…)July 29, 2016 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1161011
“many if not most chaplains in hospitals and nursing homes are reform clergy-people “
Where do you get your statistics from?
Is that more than Christian chaplains?
Are the reform also the Moslem chaplains?
In new York a very large percentage of the Jewish Chaplains are in fact Orthodox. This is from my observations and a good number of institutions.July 29, 2016 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1161012
“For instance, they do chessed extremely well. “
I am not sure if much what they do is actually chessed.
In addition, any Rov who I have known is constantly involved in chesed of all types.
There is a reason why people are constantly speaking to them, it is not only matters of Halacha.
I would say even Avi Weiss, who is a problem, still does more chessd than reform rabbis, although it is tempered by the michsholim he causes.
(Some of his activist talmidim, on the other hand, do no chessed at all, they actively seek to harm frum yidden and communities)July 29, 2016 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1161013
Does a frum Rabbi do anything other than attend simchas and speak on Shabbos? I imagine that Reform Rabbis do all the Rabbinical stuff, just little to none of the halacha stuff. They are also often the spiritual leaders of their Temple’s day school and in charge of curriculum.
In every Jewish wedding, someone is pregnant. In a frum wedding it’s the mother of the bride. In a Conservative wedding it’s the bride herself. In a Reform wedding the Rabbi’s expecting. And in an Open Orthodox wedding it’s the chosson.July 29, 2016 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1161014
jewish femnist – because the way you responded did not make you seem like your anti the reform movement and most frum people are anti it.July 29, 2016 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1161015
jf02, the requisite halachic stipulations for such folks.July 29, 2016 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1161016
Joseph, you’re evading the question. Please explain what exactly those “requisite halachic stipulations” would be.
nishtdayngesheft: Most of the chessed that they do (not all, but most) is true chessed. They call it tikkun olam, which my husband finds hilarious because apparently that’s not at all what tikkun olam actually means in the Gemara. I agree with you about Avi Weiss: yes, he is “a problem,” and yes, he does chessed just about as well as Reform rabbis do (I don’t know about more, but about the same). I have to disagree about his talmidim, though; I know many of them, and they aren’t “actively seeking to harm frum Yidden”. To the contrary, they bring warmth and sincerity and Torah to MO communities. I have a great deal more respect for them than I do for him, in fact. Yes, most frum rabbis have some sort of chessed operations in place, but they aren’t public about it. Reform communities really integrate chessed into their ongoing activities and get the entire congregation involved. It’s a model we can certainly learn from.
Sparkly: It depends what you mean by “anti the Reform movement”. I wish that it didn’t exist and I wish that all Jews in the world would return to frumkeit. BUT, since I don’t live in a world where that’s true (yet), since Moshiach hasn’t come and the majority of Jews are NOT frum, I have to live with that reality. And I just don’t see how pushing away the not frum population is helpful or productive in any way. I see no reason to criticize their beliefs. I already know that I don’t agree with them. I already know that I believe their interpretations of Torah to be wrongheaded. I already know that I believe that the way they practice Judaism leads to assimilation, and to people who are not halachically Jewish growing up in Jewish communities. Those are all problems that I have with the movement and its leadership. But let me be clear: I have zero problems with the PEOPLE who identify as Reform. They are lovely people, sincere people, people who are part of Klal Yisroel just like you and I are, people who will be judged by Hashem eventually and need no judgment from you or I in the meantime. And, yes, I also believe that I can learn something from these people, because I can learn something from everyone. I treat them warmly, with respect and dignity. I invite them into my home, I listen to their Torah, I don’t attend their services or eat in their houses, but neither do I make fun of them behind their back. I count many of them as friends, and I refrain from discussing my beliefs with them unless they ask me, in which case I am happy to have the conversation. But I will not actively push Orthodoxy on them, just as I would never want them to push their beliefs on me.
I believe that every frum person should make an effort to treat non frum people with compassion, for two reasons. First of all, because that is what will bring the Geulah, and second of all, because derech eretz is derech eretz no matter who you are.July 29, 2016 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1161017
“???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ – ????: “???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????”.
??????- “???????? ???? ????? ?????… ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???…”
Chofetz Chaim Hilchos Rechilus 9:15
“???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???????, ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?????.”July 29, 2016 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1161018
People need to be careful not to confuse compassion with chanifa, or worse, approval.July 29, 2016 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1161019
Most of twhat they do and define as “Tikkun Olam” is very far from chesed at all, let alone true chesed.July 29, 2016 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1161020
jewish feminist – yes and thats what kiruvs about but saying that their better than frum jews thats taking it to the next level being like i wont judge and i dont agree with them is another thing. you shouldnt tell someone whos reform that their better than frum jews chasvichallila.July 29, 2016 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1161021
Most Reform rabbis cannot learn Gemara or any Hebrew texts without use of a dictionary. A typical yeshiva graduate has greater faculty in Jewish texts than a Reform rabbi.July 29, 2016 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1161022
Sparkly: who said anything about Reform Jews being “better” than frum Jews? I certainly didn’t.
nishtayngesheft: I’m not sure what your distinction between “chessed” and “true chessed” is, but either way, in my experience, Reform synagogues do a lot of social service projects, like feeding the poor, for instance. That certainly qualifies as chessed.
apushatayid: I feel genuine warmth towards Reform Jews. Certainly not chanifa. It depends what you mean by approval. I certainly don’t “approve” when they tell me that they are going on a road trip next Saturday, but I don’t say anything against it because that would not be productive. But I do “approve” of them as people.July 29, 2016 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1161023
dovrosenbaum – are you sure? i thought they did know hebrew?July 29, 2016 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1161024
yserbious has the pbest post on this thread so far.
We should learn from Reform how to do chesed?
GO to virtually and major hospital in the tri-state area, it has a fully stocked Bikur Cholim room that is re-stocked with fresh food everyday.
Stick around to see who does the “re-stocking”- Community volunteers.
When you hear the sirens of an ambulance in any orthodox jewish population center look up. There’s a good chance that you will see a Hatzolah ambulance on the way.
Driven by who – Community volunteers.
When you see a jew with a flat tire or locked out of their car =, in need of a boost or other small emergency ask them if they have Chaveirim’s number, and a frum jew will show up who is that- A community volunteer.
When you hear about a jewish family in a tough financial position and you wonder how they get food fro Shabbos or yom tov when it costs so much remember about that thing called Tomchei Shabbos with weekly food drop offs run by- community volunteers.
When you find out about a couple with fertility issues and wonder how they are affording the huge expenses involved and navigating the wide array of options, or someone with a medical problem trying to find out the best hospital to go to, or someone faced with battiling the machla r”l and all the associated expenses, recall the multi-million dollar orginazaations called RCCS, Echo, Refuah, Atime, Bonei Olam and more all funded and ran primarily by- community volunteers.
When you have a halachic problem in many communities and don’t know what to do your rabbi is in unavailable you can call something called a Bais Horah ran by – Rabbi’s volunteering.
So now what exactly are we supposed to be learning from the Reform?July 29, 2016 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1161025
Belive it or not jews live outside of NY. Hospitals and nursing homes in those places take who is available and even in NY. Places like Suffolk County, Dutchess county getting an orthodox Rabbi might be difficult , so they take who is available.
Also must frum jews will not go into the Army, (Some Chabad I think will) so they appoint as chaplin the people who enlist who have “Rabbanical Ordination”July 31, 2016 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1161026
Frum Jews live an many other places other than just New York. And many have Chaplaincy positions in many “Out of Town” communities.July 31, 2016 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1161027
The Jewish Chaplin at the Mayo Clinic in Rochhester, MN is David Freedman of B’nai Israel Synagogue, a Reform Congregation
The Mayo Clinic is one of the most famous hospitals in the US and not located in an area with alot of jews. Not in NY, Baltimore , Miami area or Los AngelesJuly 31, 2016 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1161028
It seems the Chaplin at Massachussetts general and The Cleveland Clinic, both in areas with frum populations and top hospitals in the US have hired someone named Shulamit Izen as their chaplinJuly 31, 2016 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1161029
Rashi explains the reason why it’s assur to return the lost object of a goy(gasp!!! all the modernishe will flip out!) unless there is a chilul or kidush hashem, is that it shows that you do not value the mitzvah of doing chesed with jews, with whom there is a mitzvah.
By us, chesed is a mitzvah like tefilin.
For them, it’s just being a nice person, and they will jump to do chesed with goyim, toeva-people, and anyone else – even animals.July 31, 2016 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1161032
Chaplain, not chaplin, unless you’re talking about Charlie. ZD, what’s your point? Hospitals and the like probably don’t put much weight on how frum a potential hire as a chaplain is, so there are Reform chaplains in areas with and without large frum communities. With a few exceptions, areas with large frum communities also have large numbers of non-frum Jews.July 31, 2016 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1161033
For them, it’s just being a nice person, and they will jump to do chesed with goyim, toeva-people, and anyone else – even animals.
And the problem with being a nice person (even to animals) is….?
The WolfJuly 31, 2016 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1161034
brisker 26 – you should be nice to goyim. there people too. its a huge kiddush Hashem. imagine if their was a non jew who was anti semitic and you and a number of other jews were being nice to them slowly and surely maybe theyll start liking jews and change their mind!! basically rashi is stating do be nice to non jews so that way you cause a kiddush Hashem and have less anti semites.July 31, 2016 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1161035
It is Time for TruthParticipant
Sparkly ,The Wolf,
The passuk in Hoshea states”those who kiss the calf ,will kill a/the man”July 31, 2016 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1161036
Why is anyone at this site interested in Reform rabbis?July 31, 2016 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1161037
Brisker: For them, it’s just being a nice person, and they will jump to do chesed with goyim, toeva-people, and anyone else – even animals.
Me: The torah requires chasing the mother bird away and kindness to animals too. And there is nothing wrong with doing something to be nice. Indeed, R’ Yisroel Salanter’s mussar movement may not have taken a larger hold in the charedi community, but that is unfortunate.
And taking Rashi to his logical end, you should not return something lost EVER to a jew who has given up hope, because the torah no longer requires it. (To be clear, I do not believe Rashi said this, but if the reason is as has been attributed to him, then it would apply just the same to a jew who has given up hope)
needless, to say, others disagree.July 31, 2016 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1161038
huju – this is true.July 31, 2016 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1161039
The passuk in Hoshea states”those who kiss the calf ,will kill a/the man”
Really??? Are you aware of the context of the verse at all?
1. The verse is talking about a golden calf, not a live animal.
2. You’ve reversed the sentence. It should read “those who kill a man will kiss the calf.
3. Rashi explains it as a statement of the priests of Molech that one who offers his son to Molech will be worthy to kiss the golden calf.
The verse has absolutely nothing to do with being kind (or unkind) to animals.
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