Does anybody realize the implications?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Does anybody realize the implications?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 101 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #612308

    yichusdik
    Participant

    So, I don’t need or mean to rehash the whole “share the burden issue” in this post. I personally think service – whether in the IDF or in Sherut Leumi is a positive thing, but I think that both sides have been playing a zero sum game when a psharah would have worked better for all. I’m not trying to convince anyone that I’m right and they are wrong about this.

    What I AM writing about is something I’ve already encountered in frum communities in more than one country. More and more, people who individuals, yeshivos and mosdos have depended on for funding, for donations, for support have been rethinking their tzedokoh. They still give the same or more, but they are giving to other causes in the frum world – to Chabad, or Aish, to more local schools and causes, and less to individuals and institutions that have rebuked their world view about Israel and the IDF, be they MO, traditional, or secular.

    Our mesorah tells us many things. emunas chachomim may be one, but ein somchin al ha nes is another. In practical terms, how long will the funding of the Satmer community and others who have offered to help the Israeli Chareidi world last, and how far will it go? It isn’t even the Israeli governments funds that I’m talking about. Even Hesder yeshivos are seeing reductions from them. No, I’m talking about the hundreds if not thousands of baalei tzedokoh who have been offended, the people they respect insulted, the virtues they hold denigrated. Who thinks they will keep up their tzedokoh as it was, and why indeed would they? There are plenty of good, virtuous, frum places they don’t feel insulted by for their dollars to go.

    I’d say it will hit hard sooner or later, but I’ve talked to meshulochim and its hit already. Hard.

    #1007596

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    But when they compromise on other idealistic goals for the sake of keeping the Mosdos open everyone is up in arms. Do you not critisize Mosdos for endorsing a candidate whose personal life is horrendous?

    #1007597

    akuperma
    Participant

    One can not have a psharah (compromise)between good and evil. Once the zionists said you must choose between Torah and Zionism, it became impossible to waffle and seek compromises. Netanyahu, Lapid and Bennett decided to switch to a zero sum game, and precluded compromise. Money issues can always be negotiated. So can political questions. But demanding that even one Jew become less observant moves you into an area where even life itself becomes secondary (and it doesn’t help that the army regularly engages in the other two prohibitions that push aside the halachic preference for life).

    #1007598

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Haleivi, I don’t think any mosdos should be endorsing any candidate anywhere. voting is an expression of free will. If one feels they need guidance, they should ask their Rov. If they feel the upbringing their parents and those who educated them gave them is valuable, they should be able to make such decisions based on their own values. Public expressions of who to vote for by anyone in any camp reeks of self interest and protection of $ or power. It is transparently obvious and I abhor it.

    #1007599

    yichusdik
    Participant

    akuperma, I’m not going to convince you, and I won’t try. I disagree with your premise. Zionism is not evil. But you haven’t answered my question. If yeshivos and mosdos have been prepared to take funding and donations from thousands of shomrei torah umitzvos and thousands more Jews who at least are baalei tzedokoh up until now, even though they fundamentally disagree with your premise too, what will the chareidi oilem do now that they can’t take for granted the support of people who feel denigrated and insulted and disenfranchised by the very mosdos they used to support? Is there a plan? Is there a source of money that no one knows about? Ein somchin al hanes.

    #1007600

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    How should people know who is good for the Mosdos? When they endorse someone they are merely letting you know who is good for them.

    #1007601

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Your main disagreement with Akuperma is what you said is not what you came here to discuss. But once you realize where he is coming from your question falls away. There are certain things that are untoucheable. Yeshivos for Bochurim is one of them. You don’t make Cheshbonos when Yiddishkeit, or an aspect thereof, is at stake. The Maccabees were also irrational, but it was time to act without calculating the odds. At such times we do what we can and leave the rest to Hashem.

    #1007602

    000646
    Participant

    This whole “having to choose between Torah and Zionism” situation does not exist. Saying that chareidi bochrim should do some sort of national service in lieu of the military service required by every other citizen of the state is not “forcing people to choose” anything over anything. Nobody is saying that bochrim can’t go to yeshiva nobody is forcing anyone to have any ideology over another. They are just saying that no matter what your ideology is you should still have to contribute like everyone else. That’s all.

    #1007603

    000646
    Participant

    It’s also disappointing to see people who you would expect to be above twisting facts for a political end clearly saying things that are clearly untrue for a political purpose. (i.e “they are making laws against learning Torah” “they are making us choose between Zionism and the Torah” etc

    #1007604

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    000646 – different argument.First the Anti-Zionists have to come out and agree that they are no different than Netrei Karta (with the exclusion of taking money). Then the Israelis will have no interest in drafting them, similar to the Arabs. Problem solved.

    The only question is for those who are more like you and less like HaKatan.

    #1007605

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    In my opinion everyone has been framing this argument in black and white. It’s either join the IDF or stay in kollel ???? ?????. Lapid can easily persuade the Chareidim by offering the option to leave kollel without joining the IDF and the Chareidim can easily persuade Lapid by offering to accept the same.

    The non-Chareidi velt sees this “Million Man Atzeres” as a demand for welfare and indefinite government payouts to kollels and kollel families which did nothing but anger everyone. Had the Atzeres instead have been framed as a demand to give Chareidim equal opportunity without the requirement of draft, it would have gone over a lot better.

    #1007606

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Seems like the idealistic situation alluded to in the OP, of discussing one aspect, is impossible.

    #1007607

    HaKatan
    Participant

    yichusdik:

    First, this is not even a question of “ain somchin al haNeis”.

    It is, liChaOra, a question of how long the Zionist regime will last as they tighten the screws of shmad and attempt to figuratively vaporize much of their very life-blood who are these Chareidi lomdei Torah (I presume the other limud Torah there also helps them).

    The answer to your non-question is “HaYad Hashem Tiktzar?” Hashem can help our brethren there in an instant in any number of ways (including bringing Mashiach, for that matter).

    As akuperma noted, there is no possibility of “pshara” when it comes to the Torah and shmad.

    The gedolim, both then and now, have stated that the IDF is not a place for any frum Jew, regardless of whether or not he is learning.

    The Zionists themselves admit ad haYom that they wish to change chareidim into Israelis. This is textbook shmad.

    The bottom line is that the wicked Zionists have refused to allow the Chareidim (who claim a pitur from the army) to work for a living unless they agree to first be shmaded in the army. This is a gross injustice.

    #1007608

    HaKatan
    Participant

    HALeivi’s comparison to the Maccabees (meaning, the Torah’s version as opposed to, liHavdil, the shameful Zionist propaganda version of the same), is well worth noting, too.

    There is no compromise when it comes to the Torah.

    #1007609

    golfer
    Participant

    Yichusdik, you brought up a good point.

    I think the answer to your question- “Does anybody realize…” is-

    Nobody was really thinking about those implications; either because of the force of their convictions that precluded having any other considerations, or because of simply not bothering to be “ro’eh ess ha’nolad.”

    I’m sure many people will want to say it was a case of adhering to ideological convictions, and not negligence or miscalculation.

    As for the consequences, hopefully we”ll all be around to see what happens. And hopefully the positive consequences will outweigh any negatives.

    #1007610

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Haleivi I hear your answer, but that is no way to live, and the characterization of what is being suggested or done, and more-so the motivation for it, is exaggerated or false.

    AN individual can say Hashem will provide – and he is responsible for no one but himself and his family if it is in Hashem’s plan not to. But manhigim, askanim, spokesmen, responsible yidden – responsible for thousands of people – when they have to give din vecheshbon and say – I was a Pinchos for you, HKBH! – and HKBH says that’s great, but you could have been a Pinchos and a Yehoshua at the same time, or You could have been a Pinchos and found a way to feed your flock, or You could have been a Pinchos and and a Hillel Hazoken – what will they answer?

    #1007611

    rc
    Participant

    so i agree with share the burden in the sense that, Yes, when you see all those chareidim in one place you certainly cant expect the state to foot the bill for all those people without getting anything in return. and while limud torah is a huge shmirah, the chareidim also need to contribute something else in addition. And no one has explained to me why the dati leumi, or hesder bachur’s life is worth sacrificing but not the yehsivish chareidi one. Let’s pretend that someone does need to actually defend the country, so you are saying its fine as long as he is not a chareidi? what happens when we are the majority and they depend on us to defend? what theN? do we outsource our military??? (thats probably actually what we will do!!) The real answer is , if you are ultra chareidi, and dont believe in the medina, then say i am not prepared to serve or contribute, therefore i will not take your govt money and subsidies..

    #1007612

    benignuman
    Participant

    “Lapid can easily persuade the Chareidim by offering the option to leave kollel without joining the IDF and the Chareidim can easily persuade Lapid by offering to accept the same.”

    I think the former is true but not the latter.

    #1007613

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think the former is true but not the latter.

    I agree.

    #1007614

    dveykus613
    Member

    yichusdik – it depends on your perspective. We tend to think how you wrote. But the Chofetz Chaim who used to go around raising for his Yeshiva in Radin was once offered by a rich gvir that he would give the full amount needed for the next 5 years. The Chofetz Chaim refused (despite the fact that it meant more bitul torah for him to go around) and said he’s happy to give him a portion, but he has to save the zechus supporting torah for many more people in klal yisroel. If someone would refuse, the Chofetz Chaim would only be saddened that the person was giving up on a chance for the zechus of supporting talmud torah. (Also see the Zohar on “v’yevaeik ish imo” on the struggle between Sar shel Esav and Yaakov Avinu – will shed alot of light on this topic as well)

    #1007615

    akuperma
    Participant

    benignuman and DaasYochid: However Lapid’s goal is not to either increase soldiers (the army needs more jobniks like a hole in the head), nor to increase hareidi participation in the workplace so they can better support hareidi institutions without relying on the government (ending conscription would accomplish that). The goal of Lapid (and Netanyahu and Bennett) is to “break” the hareidi community before its so large it can overwhelm the zionists electorally. They are relying on the past success of conscription in turning many frum recruits into less frum and more “modern” and more likely to vote for Likud, Bayit Yehudi or Yesh Atid. Assuming the Israeli leaders aren’t idiots, its rather obvious that their goal is to destroy the hareidi community, which explains many of their policies in addition to conscription.

    #1007616

    mybrother
    Member

    No matter the side of the fence.

    its like were back in the stone age in the human relations department.

    Dale Carnegie would not be impressed lol

    #1007617

    Logician
    Participant

    emunas chachomim may be one, but ein somchin al ha nes is another.

    What exactly does this mean ? That we listen to our leaders up to a point, but when my reasoning takes me elsewhere I drop them ?

    #1007618

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Logician that is an excellent question. My perspective is that you take the investment your parents, melamdim, and a whole generation of gedolim made in building the chinuch you benefitted from after the Shoah and you use it to formulate an opinion, direction, or plan for yourself and your family that is true to that investment. If that brings you to a conclusion of ein somechin al hanes, and your manhigim are telling you to be somech on a nes, you have a problem, a challenge on your hands. I will not be so presumptuous as to tell people which direction to go, only to question, again, why it got to this point when it could have been solved, and if there is indeed a plan, why hasn’t it been shared with the oilem that will need to follow it. I don’t have a good answer. That’s why this whole circumstance raises so many questions. Trust in HKBH doesn’t mean one should ignore derech hateva.

    #1007619

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Dveykus, I can only respond that we think that way because HKBH made us that way, and our parents and melamdim taught us that way. We should not ignore their logic; and the madrega of the Chofetz Chaim is in any case beyond me.

    #1007620

    Logician
    Participant

    Your issues may be legitimate. I haven’t really read it through. I’m not sure what you’re answering, though. Are you saying that they’re only here to help you form your own ability to think, and now you’ve no need to follow ?! Certainly that process should happen, and you should have the ability to make decisions on your own. But if they explicitly instruct you one way, you don’t listen ?

    If what you mean is that you’re not questioning l’mayseh, but are just trying to understand, then I withdraw my question.

    #1007621

    Logician
    Participant

    This has nothing to do with the madrega of the Chofetz Chaim. He explicitly explained that the existence of Yeshivos are ABOVE derech hateva, and will always be so. [This has nothing to do, perhaps, with any individual’s decision to learn.]

    #1007622

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Logician: At the risk of being censored (almost a daily occurence now) may I ask you what is your concept of emunas chachomim? Do you have to follow the directives of certain rabbonim blindly? And which chachomim would that be? If I could show that there are many open halochos that contradict what some Rabbonim tell you, what would you say?

    To be precise, you’ve had eight posts deleted in the last two months.

    #1007623

    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“So, I don’t need or mean to rehash the whole “share the burden issue” in this post. I personally think service – whether in the IDF or in Sherut Leumi is a positive thing, but I think that both sides have been playing a zero sum game when a psharah would have worked better for all.”

    The only ones playing this game are Lapid and Bayit Yehudy. What the Mizarchi/NRP don’t understand is that when Augdah agreed with Ben Gurion -it was not to “share the burden”, but to have a common denominator to have a country. Like I quoted Rav Schach zt”l -“There are two fronts in wartime -one on the front and one in the Bais Medrash.”

    I think this Gov. will fall fast and at the next election -the Frum parties should join the leftists. Bibi anyway wants to give away the West Bank!

    #1007624

    oomis
    Participant

    My entire family in E”Y are frum, ehrliche people. Most of the males served in the army, and did not compromise their frumkeit. Did they spend a LITTLE less time (or even more than they would have wished) on learning while busy fighting for their country? Maybe. But they were engaged in pikuach nefesh, protecting OTHER frum Yidden who did NOT physically serve their country. And while I DO believe that learning upholds the spiritual health of Klal Yisrael, there is an Eis Milchama, and we are living through those times now.

    No one should ever denigrate any Israeli soldier, frum or not, who is moser nefesh to protect our people. And worse, when it is our own people who LIVE there and benefit from that protection who are doing the protesting and denigrating – that is biting the hand that feeds them.

    Can we not understand how frustrating and insulting it must be to the members of Tzahal and Nachal to see obviously frum able-bodied men who refuse to serve their army in ANY capacity, while at the same time they castigate the soldiers who put their lives on the line for them? Both sides need to understand and respect the position of the other.

    #1007625

    Health
    Participant

    oomis -“And while I DO believe that learning upholds the spiritual health of Klal Yisrael, there is an Eis Milchama, and we are living through those times now.”

    Yes; and it was at that time too, yet the Gedolim forbade joining the IDF!

    “Both sides need to understand and respect the position of the other.”

    And do Bayit Yehudi/Mizarchi/NRP understand and respect the position of the Charadi?

    Like I quoted Rav Schach zt”l -“There are two fronts in wartime -one on the front and one in the Bais Medrash.”

    Do they understand and respect the position of the Charadi?

    I think NOT!

    #1007626

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Logician, it isn’t “my issue” as I don’t live in EY right now. I’m just trying to understand the game plan. When HKBH is the planner, I say naaseh vnishma. When bnei odom are, no matter how learned, no matter how respected, the flock they lead deserve to see where they are going and how they will get there. And naaseh vnishma is reserved for HKBH.

    oomis, +1

    #1007627

    golfer
    Participant

    Come on Health, you know better than that.

    When oomis suggests a little respect and understanding on both sides, the correct response is Not for you to attack the lack of respect and understanding on the part of the Other side! They’re responsible for their actions; you’re in charge of your own. That means you start by showing some respect and consideration for the other guys, however misguided you may think they are.

    Try it!

    It’s painful to watch everyone tearing the other side apart. But we can each only start by trying to work on our own Ahavas Yisrael.

    #1007628

    golfer
    Participant

    Oomis, I see you believe that learning Torah “upholds the spiritual health of Klal Yisrael.”

    What’s interesting is that it also ensures our physical wellbeing in this world. I’m sure I don’t need to try and prove to you that our existence through two thousand years in Galus, most recently through World War II and through numerous attacks by our enemies in Eretz Yisrael, is totally beyond the bounds of teva as we understand it. Our physical survival depends on Torah as much as our spiritual health does.

    The yeshiva bachur staying late in the Bais Medrash to clarify the sugya, may be keeping the neighbors that he doesn’t even know, safe and sound in their beds.

    This is not meant to disagree in any way with the rest of your comment!

    #1007629

    mybrother
    Member

    Well said oomis.

    May Hashem watch over all of our brothers and sisters in EY

    #1007630

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Oomis mentioned respect this too me is the whole issue non chareidi jews feel they are looked down upon by chareidis and tragically this is the truth whatever happened to love your neighor like you do yourself??????? It doesn’t matter if that neighbors religious outlook is different from yours you are supposed to love him simply because he is a jew he is your brother!!!

    If you had a son or sibling go otd would you love them less?

    #1007631

    HaKatan
    Participant

    oomis:

    The amount of time lost learning while they’re in the IDF is not the worst problem. The biggest problems are the IDF itself: the shmad, the arayos, etc.

    As well, it’s nice that they’re “erlich” and also that (you THINK) it did not compromise their frumkeit.

    But the gedolim still forbade it, then and now, as others have noted.

    You also don’t mention the tragic percentage of “D”L” that come out of the IDF not dati any more.

    Finally, any frustration should be directed at Israel and Zionism because the shmad that are both Zionism and Israel/IDF is the main reason why the IDF is a non-starter for any Torah-observant Jew, as per the gedolim.

    #1007632

    HaKatan
    Participant

    yichusdik, in your case, you might ask your LOR if your assessment is correct that this is a case of “ain somchim al haNeis”. Then, if they agree with you that this is “somchim al haNeis”, then the follow-up question can be presented.

    Either way, to disregard Daas Torah is wrong.

    But no daas Torah has indicated this is an issue of “somchim as haNeis” and, therefore, nobody should simply decide for no reason other than their conjecture that this is so.

    #1007633

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Moderator: thanks for the update. It seemed a lot more in recent times.

    Health: Your facts are wrong. In the “milchemet hshichrur” -1948- plenty of chareidim fought in the haganah and etzel. Even after the founding of the medinah, many chareidim went to the army. Only a very few select people stayed and learned and that was the deal with ben Gurion.

    That deal has now grown exponentially and is not sustainable-including the fact that the economic burden is beyond the scope of the country. That is what the new law intended to do: choose a select few (well in the thousands, mind you)and allow the others to go on living a normal life. That snesible plan is being opposed by the chareidi leadership-for spurious reasons.

    #1007634

    interjection
    Participant

    I just want to point out the chain of events, as I saw it. For months, since it was announced that They were going to cut finding, the leaders started complaining. However the first word I heard of this emergency atzeres was only AFTER boys were JAILED for learning Torah.

    I didn’t see it in any way to be about the money bec a) they would have gathered months before and b) everyone is being targeted, not just chareidim. The way I see it is that they obviously want money but to be criminalized for learning Torah is intolerable.

    #1007635

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Maybe the yeshivas can find time in their full day of learning for a Middos seder, how to treat people with respect and dignity even if they are not like you, Torah learning without Middos is like a sandwich with just bread.

    #1007636

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “Lapid can easily persuade the Chareidim by offering the option to leave kollel without joining the IDF and the Chareidim can easily persuade Lapid by offering to accept the same.”

    I think the former is true but not the latter.

    I disagree. You have to remember what the “real” desire is for both sides. Lapid (contrary to popular belief) does not seem to want every member of Klal Yisroel to be eating ham on Yom Kippur (I know Akuperma & HaKatan will disagree, so consider your posts posted). His power comes from the social protests movement. If he can show that he is no longer paying for Charaidim learning, he will consider that a “win”. Letting Charaidim work without stopping payments for the vast majority (at least to start) who will stay in learning is a “loss”, so why would he agree?

    They could add that those who stay in learning lose payment and go Satmar, and that Lapid (IMHO) would agree to. The court issues can be solved as I have posted earlier.

    #1007637

    Logician
    Participant

    the flock they lead deserve to see where they are going and how they will get there.

    In other words, we follow only when we understand. In other words, we don’t follow. When you give us a good idea, that we happened not to think of ourselves, we accept.

    I haven’t shared my opinion on the definition of emunas chachamim. But the above attitude is is not emunas anything.

    #1007638

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    interjection – That was the only way to convince Rav Shteinman that it is acceptable to protest. I (who doesn’t come to Rav Shteinman’s toes) also agree that jailing should be protested (assuming that it would actually ever happen). That still has nothing to do with the underlying point of why the whole Shivyon B’netel issue has come up.

    #1007639

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Lapid deal DOES allow charedim not to join the IDF, if they havent served by 24 AND it allows them to work, what it doesnt allow is government benefits and that is what the charedi leadership doesnt want.

    #1007640

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Logician – your post is anything but logical. And it sets up a straw man. I said it is a real problem that needs an answer, not that I had an answer. I also spoke from my perspective, not trying to lay out halacha or guidance for anyone else.

    If following unexplained plans of manhigim today obviates the mesiras nefesh of parents, melamdim, and gedolim of earlier generations who gave one the tools to come to ones own conclusions based on the perspective learned from them, then there is something sick in the system.

    Our entire system of learning and observance for over 2000 years is based on explanation and understanding. You want to tell me that it is permissible to add another chok to Torah. I don’t think so.

    I’m not saying they are wrong or right. I am saying that the oilem deserves and our tradition demands that the mehalech is explainable, understandable, and logical.

    And getting back to my original issue, which few here have addressed, rather choosing to rehash an argument I’m not making and which won’t have a snowball’s chance in an oven of anyone changing their minds here, is it Ossur to ask what is the plan? Is it ossur to point out that the denigration, insult, and dismissal of the perspectives of critically important supporters of mosdos in the chareidi world has had a backlash already and that it is only likely to get worse – and that this backlash impacts on the ability of the mosdos to sustain themselves?

    I don’t have the answer, I’m just hoping someone does. And it is revolting to think that anyone feels it is ossur to ask this question.

    #1007641

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Presently the vast majority of Israeli society supports Lapid because of how the Chareidim are framing the fight. If the Chareidim would demand instead that conscription need not be mandatory, the tide would turn very quickly against Lapid.

    #1007642

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    zahavasdad: bingo ! see my new post about the bill. Virtually no one on this blog or anywhere else actually bothered to read the bill. I did and it is exactly as you say: anyone over 24 can be exempt by the defense ministry and go out freely to get a job, something unprecendented till now. there are other new advantages but no one wants to talk about that, only scream!

    #1007643

    oomis
    Participant

    And do Bayit Yehudi/Mizarchi/NRP understand and respect the position of the Charadi?

    Like I quoted Rav Schach zt”l -“There are two fronts in wartime -one on the front and one in the Bais Medrash.”

    Do they understand and respect the position of the Charadi?

    I think NOT! “

    That may be so, but it is not correct for either side to disrespect the other. It leads to sinas chinam, and stubborn inability to compromise in a reasonable manner that benefits all.

    I totally agree with everything Golfer said, and more – I absolutely believe that every neis that has occurred in E”Y in our times (especially during the Gulf Wars), is a direct result of the many, many people learning Torah there. Our physical safety in E”Y is dependent on the spiritual safety that our yeshivos are providing. No question in my mind about that.

    That said, I assure HaKatan that if any ehrliche frum yid in my family or anyone else’s has ever had to compromise his frumkeit in any manner in the IDF or any other army, it was b’shaas had’chak and while saving lives. My father Z”L lived on tuna fish, raw fruit and vegetables for his entire army stint, never had a hot meal. For anyone to refer to serving in the army as shmad, is offensive to me. I have no doubt that there is a level of arayos going on in the army, but those same people would sadly be living that way were they NOT in the army. It is a pandemic, not just in E”Y, and not just in the IDF.

    Would anyone have paskened that no Jew should serve in the army when they were conquering E”Y 40 years after Yetzias Mitzrayim? How about all the wars that took place IN the Midbor? There were Jews who committed heinous aveiros in those days also, and they were punished for that. These are Milchamos Mitzvah in our day and time. Israel would not need an army, were it not for the fact that our sonim will just not let up. So who should be expected to lay his life on the line every time? ONLY the non-chareidi? Only the frei? Why – are they less Jewish or more expendable?

    I do not believe that the Yeshivah boys (who are emesdig in their learning) should necessarily have to BE in the army, but there are all types of service they can give their country (concurrent with limud Torah), which would not be so terrible for them to do, when others are doing the actual fighting to preserve their lives and rights. Likewise, the secular Israeli world needs to be sensitized to the fact that Hashem fiers the world, and in the zechus of all the Torah being learned, has given the IDF many a miraculous victory that cannot be explained in any other way. If you come from a secular mindset, that is not so easy to recognize. Perhaps if they felt their voice was being heard and that they were not being disdained for their “shmad and arayos” (and that is a bit of L”H, while we are at it, to make such an assumption about everyone in the IDF), and perhaps if there were more frum people serving IN the army, their example would rub off a little on the others in a positive manner.

    When two Jews wander in the desert and only one has a bottle of water, Halacha dictates that the one should not share his water, because then both will die, and one life is not more important than the other. It does not say anything about two Jews, one frum, and one frei, wandering the desert, and the frei one has the bottle of water. One life is not more important than the other.(Please don’t quote the drowning story with the rebbie and the father, and the son is supposed to save his rebbie first – it is apples and oranges to this inyan).

    This is a very sad and serious machlah among Klal Yisroel, that is causing so much sinas chinam, and I hope it can be resolved successfully, and soon, before the world is witness to a bigger Chillul Hashem.

    #1007644

    akuperma
    Participant

    Yserbius123: Israeli polls in secular news sites suggest Lapid is quite unpopular, but this reflect many of his policies.

    The polls and online discussions in secular sources suggest the biggest objections were to funding yeshivos, and especially to funding yeshiva students who weren’t serving in the army. The ire of the public appears focused on a stereotypical yeshiva students who is very Israeli, very hawkish and pro-settlement, and dependent living well on government money while not serving in the army. When you move away from that stereotype, the ire dissipates. It doesn’t appear most Israelis favor throwing anti-zionists in jail as long as they don’t accept or solicit government funding, which will probably lead to a compromise. It also appears there isn’t opposition to funding yeshiva students who have served or are serving in the army.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 101 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.