Does anybody realize the implications?

One can not have a psharah (compromise)between good and evil. Once the zionists said you must choose between Torah and Zionism, it became impossible to waffle and seek compromises. Netanyahu, Lapid and Bennett decided to switch to a zero sum game, and precluded compromise. Money issues can always be negotiated. So can political questions. But demanding that even one Jew become less observant moves you into an area where even life itself becomes secondary (and it doesn’t help that the army regularly engages in the other two prohibitions that push aside the halachic preference for life).

Your main disagreement with Akuperma is what you said is not what you came here to discuss. But once you realize where he is coming from your question falls away. There are certain things that are untoucheable. Yeshivos for Bochurim is one of them. You don’t make Cheshbonos when Yiddishkeit, or an aspect thereof, is at stake. The Maccabees were also irrational, but it was time to act without calculating the odds. At such times we do what we can and leave the rest to Hashem.

It’s also disappointing to see people who you would expect to be above twisting facts for a political end clearly saying things that are clearly untrue for a political purpose. (i.e “they are making laws against learning Torah” “they are making us choose between Zionism and the Torah” etc

In my opinion everyone has been framing this argument in black and white. It’s either join the IDF or stay in kollel ???? ?????. Lapid can easily persuade the Chareidim by offering the option to leave kollel without joining the IDF and the Chareidim can easily persuade Lapid by offering to accept the same.

The non-Chareidi velt sees this “Million Man Atzeres” as a demand for welfare and indefinite government payouts to kollels and kollel families which did nothing but anger everyone. Had the Atzeres instead have been framed as a demand to give Chareidim equal opportunity without the requirement of draft, it would have gone over a lot better.

yichusdik:

First, this is not even a question of “ain somchin al haNeis”.

It is, liChaOra, a question of how long the Zionist regime will last as they tighten the screws of shmad and attempt to figuratively vaporize much of their very life-blood who are these Chareidi lomdei Torah (I presume the other limud Torah there also helps them).

The answer to your non-question is “HaYad Hashem Tiktzar?” Hashem can help our brethren there in an instant in any number of ways (including bringing Mashiach, for that matter).

As akuperma noted, there is no possibility of “pshara” when it comes to the Torah and shmad.

The gedolim, both then and now, have stated that the IDF is not a place for any frum Jew, regardless of whether or not he is learning.

The Zionists themselves admit ad haYom that they wish to change chareidim into Israelis. This is textbook shmad.

The bottom line is that the wicked Zionists have refused to allow the Chareidim (who claim a pitur from the army) to work for a living unless they agree to first be shmaded in the army. This is a gross injustice.

Yichusdik, you brought up a good point.

I think the answer to your question- “Does anybody realize…” is-

Nobody was really thinking about those implications; either because of the force of their convictions that precluded having any other considerations, or because of simply not bothering to be “ro’eh ess ha’nolad.”

I’m sure many people will want to say it was a case of adhering to ideological convictions, and not negligence or miscalculation.

As for the consequences, hopefully we”ll all be around to see what happens. And hopefully the positive consequences will outweigh any negatives.

so i agree with share the burden in the sense that, Yes, when you see all those chareidim in one place you certainly cant expect the state to foot the bill for all those people without getting anything in return. and while limud torah is a huge shmirah, the chareidim also need to contribute something else in addition. And no one has explained to me why the dati leumi, or hesder bachur’s life is worth sacrificing but not the yehsivish chareidi one. Let’s pretend that someone does need to actually defend the country, so you are saying its fine as long as he is not a chareidi? what happens when we are the majority and they depend on us to defend? what theN? do we outsource our military??? (thats probably actually what we will do!!) The real answer is , if you are ultra chareidi, and dont believe in the medina, then say i am not prepared to serve or contribute, therefore i will not take your govt money and subsidies..

I think the former is true but not the latter.

I agree.

benignuman and DaasYochid: However Lapid’s goal is not to either increase soldiers (the army needs more jobniks like a hole in the head), nor to increase hareidi participation in the workplace so they can better support hareidi institutions without relying on the government (ending conscription would accomplish that). The goal of Lapid (and Netanyahu and Bennett) is to “break” the hareidi community before its so large it can overwhelm the zionists electorally. They are relying on the past success of conscription in turning many frum recruits into less frum and more “modern” and more likely to vote for Likud, Bayit Yehudi or Yesh Atid. Assuming the Israeli leaders aren’t idiots, its rather obvious that their goal is to destroy the hareidi community, which explains many of their policies in addition to conscription.

emunas chachomim may be one, but ein somchin al ha nes is another.

What exactly does this mean ? That we listen to our leaders up to a point, but when my reasoning takes me elsewhere I drop them ?

This has nothing to do with the madrega of the Chofetz Chaim. He explicitly explained that the existence of Yeshivos are ABOVE derech hateva, and will always be so. [This has nothing to do, perhaps, with any individual’s decision to learn.]

yichusdik -“So, I don’t need or mean to rehash the whole “share the burden issue” in this post. I personally think service – whether in the IDF or in Sherut Leumi is a positive thing, but I think that both sides have been playing a zero sum game when a psharah would have worked better for all.”

The only ones playing this game are Lapid and Bayit Yehudy. What the Mizarchi/NRP don’t understand is that when Augdah agreed with Ben Gurion -it was not to “share the burden”, but to have a common denominator to have a country. Like I quoted Rav Schach zt”l -“There are two fronts in wartime -one on the front and one in the Bais Medrash.”

I think this Gov. will fall fast and at the next election -the Frum parties should join the leftists. Bibi anyway wants to give away the West Bank!

oomis -“And while I DO believe that learning upholds the spiritual health of Klal Yisrael, there is an Eis Milchama, and we are living through those times now.”

Yes; and it was at that time too, yet the Gedolim forbade joining the IDF!

“Both sides need to understand and respect the position of the other.”

And do Bayit Yehudi/Mizarchi/NRP understand and respect the position of the Charadi?

Like I quoted Rav Schach zt”l -“There are two fronts in wartime -one on the front and one in the Bais Medrash.”

Do they understand and respect the position of the Charadi?

I think NOT!

Come on Health, you know better than that.

When oomis suggests a little respect and understanding on both sides, the correct response is Not for you to attack the lack of respect and understanding on the part of the Other side! They’re responsible for their actions; you’re in charge of your own. That means you start by showing some respect and consideration for the other guys, however misguided you may think they are.

Try it!

It’s painful to watch everyone tearing the other side apart. But we can each only start by trying to work on our own Ahavas Yisrael.

Well said oomis.

May Hashem watch over all of our brothers and sisters in EY

oomis:

The amount of time lost learning while they’re in the IDF is not the worst problem. The biggest problems are the IDF itself: the shmad, the arayos, etc.

As well, it’s nice that they’re “erlich” and also that (you THINK) it did not compromise their frumkeit.

But the gedolim still forbade it, then and now, as others have noted.

You also don’t mention the tragic percentage of “D”L” that come out of the IDF not dati any more.

Finally, any frustration should be directed at Israel and Zionism because the shmad that are both Zionism and Israel/IDF is the main reason why the IDF is a non-starter for any Torah-observant Jew, as per the gedolim.

Moderator: thanks for the update. It seemed a lot more in recent times.

Health: Your facts are wrong. In the “milchemet hshichrur” -1948- plenty of chareidim fought in the haganah and etzel. Even after the founding of the medinah, many chareidim went to the army. Only a very few select people stayed and learned and that was the deal with ben Gurion.

That deal has now grown exponentially and is not sustainable-including the fact that the economic burden is beyond the scope of the country. That is what the new law intended to do: choose a select few (well in the thousands, mind you)and allow the others to go on living a normal life. That snesible plan is being opposed by the chareidi leadership-for spurious reasons.

Maybe the yeshivas can find time in their full day of learning for a Middos seder, how to treat people with respect and dignity even if they are not like you, Torah learning without Middos is like a sandwich with just bread.

the flock they lead deserve to see where they are going and how they will get there.

In other words, we follow only when we understand. In other words, we don’t follow. When you give us a good idea, that we happened not to think of ourselves, we accept.

I haven’t shared my opinion on the definition of emunas chachamim. But the above attitude is is not emunas anything.

The Lapid deal DOES allow charedim not to join the IDF, if they havent served by 24 AND it allows them to work, what it doesnt allow is government benefits and that is what the charedi leadership doesnt want.

Presently the vast majority of Israeli society supports Lapid because of how the Chareidim are framing the fight. If the Chareidim would demand instead that conscription need not be mandatory, the tide would turn very quickly against Lapid.

And do Bayit Yehudi/Mizarchi/NRP understand and respect the position of the Charadi?

Like I quoted Rav Schach zt”l -“There are two fronts in wartime -one on the front and one in the Bais Medrash.”

Do they understand and respect the position of the Charadi?

I think NOT! “

That may be so, but it is not correct for either side to disrespect the other. It leads to sinas chinam, and stubborn inability to compromise in a reasonable manner that benefits all.

I totally agree with everything Golfer said, and more – I absolutely believe that every neis that has occurred in E”Y in our times (especially during the Gulf Wars), is a direct result of the many, many people learning Torah there. Our physical safety in E”Y is dependent on the spiritual safety that our yeshivos are providing. No question in my mind about that.

That said, I assure HaKatan that if any ehrliche frum yid in my family or anyone else’s has ever had to compromise his frumkeit in any manner in the IDF or any other army, it was b’shaas had’chak and while saving lives. My father Z”L lived on tuna fish, raw fruit and vegetables for his entire army stint, never had a hot meal. For anyone to refer to serving in the army as shmad, is offensive to me. I have no doubt that there is a level of arayos going on in the army, but those same people would sadly be living that way were they NOT in the army. It is a pandemic, not just in E”Y, and not just in the IDF.

Would anyone have paskened that no Jew should serve in the army when they were conquering E”Y 40 years after Yetzias Mitzrayim? How about all the wars that took place IN the Midbor? There were Jews who committed heinous aveiros in those days also, and they were punished for that. These are Milchamos Mitzvah in our day and time. Israel would not need an army, were it not for the fact that our sonim will just not let up. So who should be expected to lay his life on the line every time? ONLY the non-chareidi? Only the frei? Why – are they less Jewish or more expendable?

I do not believe that the Yeshivah boys (who are emesdig in their learning) should necessarily have to BE in the army, but there are all types of service they can give their country (concurrent with limud Torah), which would not be so terrible for them to do, when others are doing the actual fighting to preserve their lives and rights. Likewise, the secular Israeli world needs to be sensitized to the fact that Hashem fiers the world, and in the zechus of all the Torah being learned, has given the IDF many a miraculous victory that cannot be explained in any other way. If you come from a secular mindset, that is not so easy to recognize. Perhaps if they felt their voice was being heard and that they were not being disdained for their “shmad and arayos” (and that is a bit of L”H, while we are at it, to make such an assumption about everyone in the IDF), and perhaps if there were more frum people serving IN the army, their example would rub off a little on the others in a positive manner.

When two Jews wander in the desert and only one has a bottle of water, Halacha dictates that the one should not share his water, because then both will die, and one life is not more important than the other. It does not say anything about two Jews, one frum, and one frei, wandering the desert, and the frei one has the bottle of water. One life is not more important than the other.(Please don’t quote the drowning story with the rebbie and the father, and the son is supposed to save his rebbie first – it is apples and oranges to this inyan).

This is a very sad and serious machlah among Klal Yisroel, that is causing so much sinas chinam, and I hope it can be resolved successfully, and soon, before the world is witness to a bigger Chillul Hashem.