October 1, 2013 12:56 am at 12:56 am #610767
Does anyone know of Leah Weiss who’s a energy healer? Anyone had expirence with her?October 1, 2013 1:28 am at 1:28 am #996356
She’s a quack and the whole premise of her work is quackery, thereby rendering it assur.October 1, 2013 1:35 am at 1:35 am #996357
I know somebody who is her client, she sounds very good. Very perceptive- almost to a scary point! She seems like she’s really good..October 1, 2013 2:26 am at 2:26 am #996358
Fkelly- what does she do??
Is this assur or allowed?? Not opinions please but halachaOctober 1, 2013 2:36 am at 2:36 am #996359
superme: The opinions are the Halachah here. I have no idea who this is, but in short, if it works it’s Muttar and if not it’s Assur.October 1, 2013 2:44 am at 2:44 am #996360
The CR is for opinions. It depends who you ask, and it also depends on what exactly she’s doing.October 1, 2013 2:50 am at 2:50 am #996361
Shes a therapist. She does some thing with energy- don’t ask me, i don’t know how it works! I don’t know enough about it really.October 1, 2013 3:11 am at 3:11 am #996362
Ok I’m sorry I was misunderstood. I didn’t mean I don’t want opinions Ionia that’s what the CR is about. I mean I don’t wnt someones opinion If they think it’s muttar or assur bec that I want to know Halacha if a Rav paskened about it…October 1, 2013 3:33 am at 3:33 am #996363
Superme,what is it that you want to know? If you want to know about somebody’s professional training, credentials, experience and client testimonials, what they do and how they do it, then one should speak to the professional in question. If one is asking on the internet, the discussion could devolve into Lashon Hora and would not be at all helpful. As to whether “energy healing”, if this is muttar or assur, again, are you asking the baalei eitza of the internet to pasken halacha shailos for you? Not appropriate. Reb Doniel, clearly, you don’t know the sugya. That said, Superme, perhaps you should consider speaking with somebody who does know “the sugya”. I hear that R. Refoel Szmerla in Lakewood is a “baki” on all types of complementary/alternative healing and the specifics regarding the halachos and hashkofos of these healing modalities. When one understands that there is documented scientific basis to much of “healing” work of various kinds, then one can form an educated position and have an educated and informed discussion as to whether this would be helpful to a particular individual’s specific situation.October 1, 2013 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #996364
Energy healer? She heals energy? She heals with energy? She’s a healer who’s energetic?
I’ll stick to Advil.October 1, 2013 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #996365
Energy healing is assur on the grounds it can eb a form of kishuf. Using medical procedures that do not have a rational basis behind them is contrary to belief in Hashem, and can cause people to be open to all kinds of ideas that originate from idol worship and are in contrast to the way Hashem created his world.
This woman sounds like a machashaifeh or fortune teller of sorts.October 1, 2013 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #996366
This is just the opinion of some guy on the internet, but think of it this way, which would your bubby rather boast about, my grandchild the doctor, or my grandchild the energy healer? Do the math yourself.October 1, 2013 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #996367
Alternative medicine actually does have a relative lack of basis in both reality and halakha. Machashaifeh “medicine” is not legitimate refuah from the perspective of halakha.October 1, 2013 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #996368
Many energy healers are actually ovdei avodah zarah. They use all kinds of ideas that relate to avodah zarah to get their energy going. Some chant to the avodah Zara and try to connect to it. You have to be extremely careful with this stuff because many are mamish avodah Zara.October 1, 2013 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #996369
@sam2: I hope you are being facetious. In fact, avodah zarah, even if it does “work” (or accomplish whatever one had wanted), is assur.October 1, 2013 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #996370
WIY: this is what I feel exactly. This is why I call it machasheifah medicine, or kishuf/witchcraft medicine.October 1, 2013 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #996371
heretohelp +1000October 1, 2013 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #996372
Thehock: It’s not Avodah Zarah in and of itself. If she believes in Avodah Zarah, that’s a separate issue. If it actually heals people, then there are no Issurim of Darchei Emori and Chukos Akum and such.October 1, 2013 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #996373
Yungerman from LakewoodMember
Alternative medicine is as much kishuf as electricity is. They’re both something new, something previous generations knew nothing about, and something that works wonderously well.
Worrying about which avodah zara the practitioner is praying to while applying alternative medicine, is like worrying about which avodah zara the pilot is praying to when flying your airplane.
Get a life.October 1, 2013 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #996374
There are possible serious issurei de oraita at play. Your flippant attitude is shameful.October 2, 2013 12:03 am at 12:03 am #996375
Ok I see this is getting a little out of hand. 1)I didn’t ask for Halacha wise I said if someone is stating Halacha w pls say which Rav said that. 2) I want to know if anyone knows what she does if anyone used her and can give me some insight on it?October 2, 2013 2:50 am at 2:50 am #996376
In 1996, Rosa saw a video of Therapeutic Touch (TT) practitioners claiming they could feel a “Human Energy Field” (HEF) emanating from a human body and could use their hands to manipulate the HEF in order to diagnose and treat disease. She heard Dolores Krieger, the co-inventor of Therapeutic Touch, claim that everyone had the ability to feel the HEF, and Rosa heard other nurses say the HEF felt to them “warm as Jell-O” and “tactile as taffy.” Rosa was impressed by how certain these nurses were about their abilities. She said, “I wanted to see if they really could feel something.”
Using a standard science fair display board, Rosa devised a single-blind protocol, later described by other scientists as “simple and elegant,” for a study she conducted at age nine for her 4th grade science fair. There were two series of tests. In 1996, 15 practitioners were tested at their home or office on different days over a period of several months. In 1997, 13 practitioners, including 7 from the first series, were tested on a single day. The second series was observed and videotaped by the producers of Scientific American Frontiers. Stephen Barrett, MD, of Quackwatch helped Rosa, her mother (Linda Rosa, RN), and stepfather (Larry Sarner) write up the experiment for JAMA. The study was published April 1, 1998. George Lundberg, editor of JAMA, aware of the uniqueness of the situation, said: “Age doesn’t matter. It’s good science that matters, and this is good science”.
The study tested the ability of 21 TT practitioners to detect the HEF or “aura” when they were not looking. Rosa asked each of the practitioners to sit at a table and extend their hands through a screen. On the other side of the screen, Rosa randomly selected which of the TT practitioner’s hands she would hold her hand over. The TT practitioners were then asked which of their hands detected Rosa’s HEF. Subjects were each given ten tries, but they correctly located Rosa’s hand an average of only 4.4 times. Some subjects were asked before testing to examine Rosa’s hands and select which of her hands they thought produced the strongest HEF. Rosa then used that hand during the experiment, but those subjects performed no better. The results showed that TT practitioners could not detect the hand more often than chance, and Rosa et al therefore concluded that there was no empirical basis to the HEF and by extension therapeutic touch.October 2, 2013 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #996377
The problem with Avoda Zara is if they tell you that it is coming from a specific Avoda Zara. The Rashba was Metzaded to be Mattir real Kishuf, since Nitten Reshus Lerofe Lerapos so it isn’t Mak’chish Pamalye shel Maale.
Non-natural remedies were never Assur when they worked. The Gemara has plenty of such remedies. Not understanding something does not make it Kishuf.October 2, 2013 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #996378
Ok thanks everyone but does anyone have specific info abt what she does?October 3, 2013 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #996379
superme: you are asking a good question, what is energy medicine, how does it work. What does this specific practitioner do and how does she do it? I would urge you to read my earlier response: Call her office, speak to her directly. Ask her about her training, credentials, experience. Ask for client references and testimonials. Explore any halachic/hashkafic issues with her as well. Chas v’shalom that we should be saying that a Shomer Torah u’mitzvos is a machasheifah or oved avodah zorah (lashon hora on the internet! moderators, where are you?) Don’t triangulate and ask here in the coffee room what someone else does. Ask the person directly. You can then ask intelligent questions for clarification during the conversation(s) and then decide if it is something that would be helpful to you specifically or not. And ask your halacha/hashkafa questions to someone who knows (I gave you a good resource for that). Oh yeah, and Quackwatch has an agenda, so I am unimpressed by that quote. There are many scientific studies being done at NIH and other places in the US and other countries (Europe, Australia) on all kinds of alternative/complementary medicine techniques. Why? Because it works! Read the Science of Energy Medicine by Dr. James Oschmann, or any of Dr. Lynn McTaggart’s books (The Field) or Dr. Candace Pert (Molecules of Emotion) or Dr. Caroline Myss (many many books) on this subject. Donna Eden (Energy Medicine, 10 million in print in many languages) has written many books with her husband, Dr. David Feinstein, a physician who was trained at Johns Hopkins. There is a lot of science, quantum physics and the like, that is part of energy medicine/holistic healing nowadays. If you are serious about wanting to know how someone/something can help you, ask them directly, and don’t ask the baalei eitza of the internet.October 3, 2013 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #996380
imamom – If what she’s doing is over on issurim then it’s ossur, whether or not she’s a ‘shomer torah umitzvos’. These are serious issurim and just dismissing them by saying “she’s shomer torah umitzvos so it must be ok and to say otherwise is lashon horah” is just naive and wrong. Furthermore the studies being done are not “Because it works!” but to see whether or not there is actual scientific basis to any claims of it working. Many claimed cases of it ‘working’ just don’t stand up to scrutiny, for many reasons. BTW, all the people you quote also have an agenda you know… It’s not only people who are against what you believe who have agendas. And having an agenda doesn’t necessarily make you wrong…October 3, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #996381
The problem with asking them what it is about is that they don’t necessarily know. I know someone who used to use dowsing to find Kevarim. He used metal sticks and told everyone it has something to do with the magnetic field (of the bones?). However, people use wooden sticks as well. Some, who observed its effectiveness and also how it doesn’t work well when there are less clues, suggest that it is the person who is it subconciously.
Many alternative stuff might help as much as, and through, hypnosis.October 3, 2013 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #996382
I had heard that energy healers acquire their “energy” from unholy sources and therefore it’s ossur.October 3, 2013 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #996383
What’s Assur about an unholy source if they don’t tell you about it? In fact, a lot of the methods are just mind games. The story behind it is added in.October 4, 2013 12:17 am at 12:17 am #996384
If they don’t tell you? They don’t have to tell anyone. It’s common knowledge that energy healers use some sort of energy. It’s been documented that these energies are acquired from avodah zarah sources. These practitioners admit that they’re energy healers so what don’t we know?October 4, 2013 4:12 am at 4:12 am #996385
The Issur of someone who actually uses real Avoda Zara (rather than a belief system that includes one) is that they might drag the patient into their pit.October 4, 2013 4:47 am at 4:47 am #996386
Just my hapence: what I said was speak to a particular rav who actually knows this field AND the relevant halachos and hashkafos of healing. I even gave the name of such a person. The point is that IF a person is a shomer Torah u’mitzvos, then they conduct themselves accordingly and ask shailos, so why would one say that such a person is a machasheifa and an oved avoda zora, just because their work involves something that one doesn’t understand? I don’t understand electricity, but I know that it works! Is my electrician a machasheifa or an oved avoda zora? I don’t think so. Which is why I am offended that this discussion is avak lashon hora and/or rechilus/motzei shem ra! The books I listed indicate that “energy” is all around us, all the time. This is a scientific fact (thank you, Albert Einstein). When it was explained to me (in a mature and adult conversation) I understood that “energy healing” DOES NOT access “energy” from other sources, but balances what is already present. No chanting, no external sources, no mystique, no avoda zora. No agendas, either. Rational science.October 4, 2013 11:28 am at 11:28 am #996387
imamom – Ok, let’s break this down a bit. First off:
The point is that IF a person is a shomer Torah u’mitzvos, then they conduct themselves accordingly and ask shailos, so why would one say that such a person is a machasheifa and an oved avoda zora, just because their work involves something that one doesn’t understand?
Well, that wasn’t really your original point, was it? Here’s what you said originally:
Chas v’shalom that we should be saying that a Shomer Torah u’mitzvos is a machasheifah or oved avodah zorah (lashon hora on the internet! moderators, where are you?)
The response is simple, if it is ossur (and there are other potential issurim involved besides kishuf and avoda zara; nichush is one example) then to say that what she does is ossur is not loshon horah. Your starting point is “Well she’s frum, so…” which is the wrong place to start. Never look at the individual, always the actions.
I don’t understand electricity, but I know that it works! Is my electrician a machasheifa or an oved avoda zora? I don’t think so.
Now this is just silly. Come on. There is no way you can seriously be equating something which has very flimsy pseudo-scientific rationale, which has zero experimental proof, which is pretty much universally not accepted by people with the necessary knowledge to a phenomenon that we know all the scientific basis of to the last electron, that has hundreds of years of experimental data, that we can observe how, when and why it works. Seriously?! Gosh. Talk about an agenda…
The books I listed indicate that “energy” is all around us, all the time. This is a scientific fact (thank you, Albert Einstein).
Now this is one of the most egregious distortions of special relativity I’ve ever seen. All e=mc2 means is that energy and matter are equivalent, that is that one can be converted to the other proportionally. It means that conservation of mass and conservation of energy are linked. Nothing more than that. It does not mean that some kind of wishy-washy “energy” with mysterious powers is all around us waiting to be controlled by those with “the gift” if they can “balance” it correctly (whatever that’s supposed to mean).
No agendas, either. Rational science.
So, the group which uses standard scientific experimental techniques, and is basing their theories on actual scientific knowledge has “an agenda” and is not using “rational science”, but the group who does not and bases their claims on gross misinterpretation of pretty basic science apparently is using “rational science” and has “no agendas”. Seriously, you think these people have no agenda whatsoever, they are simply doing it for the good of mankind and the furthering of human knowledge and not to sell books and services. Ok…
Btw, this is a mature and adult conversation too, or at least I am trying to make it so. Putting forward views to which you are opposed does not make it not so.October 4, 2013 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #996388
Reb Doniel, and WIY, I would love to introduce you to my lead pouring neighbor. I am generally sensitive to things AZ, and karov leAZ, but i am also trained in T’ai Chi, and the things I saw were real enough, and with my partial link to medicine, I have used “beamed energy” to correct certain situations. I don’t know if it was my part that helped, or if it was benign as chicken soup, but there was improvement. There are ideas in this that use latent energy, and those that “access” other latent energies. Those energies are not a force, and entity or a neevad, just energy as in electricity, sunlight, and other solar and other atmospheric and earth processes.
aOctober 4, 2013 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #996389
Sometimes many alternative treatments work solely on the basis of the power of suggestion or the placebo effect.October 4, 2013 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #996390
“Sometimes many alternative treatments work solely on the basis of the power of suggestion or the placebo effect.”
So if I tell people it works via kishuf but really it’s just placebo, is that OK? Or is it geneivas da’as on my part? (Can I be oiver geneivas daas if I’m tricking people into not doing an aveirah? Are they doing an aveirah anyway if they think it’s kishuf but it isn’t?)October 4, 2013 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #996391
“Non-natural remedies were never Assur when they worked. The Gemara has plenty of such remedies. Not understanding something does not make it Kishuf.”
The gemara had natural remedies, and other remedies which relied on the science of the times. What’s being proposed is something that’s non-natural AND non-scientific. And it’s not from the Torah. So you’re claiming to harness some non-existent force which is not Torah based, nor science based. That’s the definition of avodah zara.October 4, 2013 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #996392
pretzel – Lead pouring is nothing more than simple physics – you’ll get those little ‘eyes’ if you pour hot lead into cold water anywhere, over someone’s head or not. And “beamed energy”?! What, like lasers and stuff?October 4, 2013 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #996393
I’m not saying that these things are mutar. What I am saying is that treatments with no scientific basis are often perceived to be effective on the basis of the placebo effect or wishful thinking.October 4, 2013 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #996394
thank you, twisted pretzel, for emphasizing my point very elegantly. Yes, there is “energy” all around us. That is a scientific fact.October 4, 2013 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #996395
Rebbe yid: Non-science doesn’t make it wrong. It just means we don’t know it yet. Now, I believe it is a Machlokes Achronim whether working via placebo effect is enough to get you out of Darchei Emori.October 4, 2013 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #996396
There is nothing scientific about reciting criptic passages while peeling a tree, or talking to an ant.
The Issur of Avoda Zara is worshiping, not harnessing. The Rambam describes Kishuf as being based on Avoda Zara ideology. However, Kishuf is not Yehareg ve’al Yavor. The term Avoda Zara is thrown about so easily, while it isn’t applied when it should be. How about belief in evolution being Chilul Shabbos?
We do not find Kishuf being applied to healing, and the Rashba felt it is Muttar. The Rambam held that although Kemeyos should really be Assur it is allowed for a sick person, in order to sooth him.October 4, 2013 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #996397
Just my h, you want to know if “beamed energy” is like lasers and stuff?
No, silly, it’s like “Beam me up Scotty.”October 6, 2013 11:46 am at 11:46 am #996398
Perhaps you can use Energy Healing to rearrange the digits in your bank account to add a few more zeros. Then you can afford a real doctor.October 6, 2013 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #996399
How can one harness the power of a deity THAT DOESN’T EXIST?October 14, 2013 2:34 am at 2:34 am #996400
Chacham- what do u mean,?October 16, 2013 1:28 am at 1:28 am #996401
Everybody’s saying that energy healers are apikorsim because they get their healing power by harnessing Avodah Zara. But Avodah Zara aren’t real, so then they wouldn’t get any healing powers, but they do, so it can’t be Avodah ZaraOctober 16, 2013 1:56 am at 1:56 am #996402
Chacham- so then wat is it where’s it coming from?October 16, 2013 3:15 am at 3:15 am #996403
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
People worship the stars, sun and moon. Does that mean they don’t exist?October 16, 2013 3:21 am at 3:21 am #996404
There used to be such a thing as black magic that actually worked and was ossur. The goyim practiced it all the time (Pharaoh and his astrologers/magicians, for instance). Why did Hashem allow it to work? I don’t know, but He did. It could be that he allows some of it to work nowadays as well.
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