December 8, 2010 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #593374Feif UnParticipant
I’d always heard from people that many laws we take as basic morality, such as stealing, murder, and others, all come from the Torah. In other words, had the Torah not said killing is bad, we wouldn’t know it, and murder might be perfectly acceptable. There is no such thing as basic morality that comes from common sense – it all stems from people who learned the Torah thousands of years ago.
A few months ago, I was learning the Darash Moshe. It was on Sukkos, so it was somewhere at the end – probably parshas Haazinu. R’ Moshe writes there that there is basic morality, and that we’d know murder is wrong even without the Torah telling us.
Does anyone have an opinion on the matter?December 8, 2010 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #716044
You only know it’s wrong once Hashem put it in the Torah. It’s not wrong if it’s not from the Torah. In other words, first comes the Torah, then anyone can figure it out -right or wrong (morals), even if they never learnt Torah!December 8, 2010 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #716045arcParticipant
there are basic concepts of morality we keep them and follow the torah laws because we are commanded to do so.December 8, 2010 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #716046smartcookieMember
Murder and stealing are definitely common sense, besides that the Torah teaches it to us.
These two hurt the person, and I think many people would refrain from it even though we wouldn’t be commanded by Hashem to do that.December 8, 2010 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #716047eclipseMember
Can I guess?Just a guess–nobody “kill” me,please.:)
1.Kayin was punished for killing Hevel–not because he defied specific instructions not to–but because it was a given:WRONG.BAD.
2.A Jew has 3 traits ingrained in his very being.We are bayshonim,rachmonim,and gomlei chasodim.A murderer is doing away with all mercy,and that resistance takes conscious thinking.December 8, 2010 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #716048
Health, you are wrong. It is an ofene Gemora that certain things would be obvious (that they are wrong), even if the Torah had not been given.Eiruvin 100B.December 9, 2010 3:26 am at 3:26 am #716049
No. The gemorah doesn’t state that these things are obvious, only that they can be learned from nature. (The problem I have with this gemorah is that there is no process to learn morality from nature and the examples given were of things that were established through other means.)December 9, 2010 4:26 am at 4:26 am #716050
MDD & others – Let me clarify what I meant: The Torah is Hashem’s words. Listening to the Torah is Rozon Hashem (Hashem’s will). Certain things we would know that Hashem wants us to do without him actually having to write it down; eg. murder. Like by Kayin -he should have figured out killing is wrong with his own sense. To repeat my answer to the original poster: All morality comes from Hashem -it’s only moral if Hashem wants us to do it. If Hashem didn’t care if we killed each other -then it wouldn’t be immoral! One example: Acc. to the law if someone breaks into your house and tells you I’m just here to steal and I won’t hurt you and I have no weapons -you aren’t allowed to do anything physical to him. This is immoral acc. to our laws- to harm him. Acc. to the Torah, you can kill him, no matter what he says. This would be perfectly moral acc. to the Torah!December 9, 2010 4:54 am at 4:54 am #716051
Bezalel and Health, look in Ramban, Parshas Noach. He writes that it should be poshut to anybody that it’s wrong to steal.
Plus, Health, what was wrong with what Lot did with his daughters?December 9, 2010 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #716053
I accept that morality can come from sources other than the Torah, otherwise there could be no complaint to the Dor Hamabul (I just objected to using Eruvin 100B as proof).December 9, 2010 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #716054
MDD & Bezalel -Again morality can only come from other sources, not from the written Torah, if it’s Rozon Hashem. Read my posts, esp. my example – THINK -and then answer them!December 9, 2010 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #716055
So you maintain that pedophelia is moral?December 9, 2010 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #716056
Health, I think, I understand what you mean. But I don’t think this is what the OP was asking.December 9, 2010 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #716057RuffRuffMember
What does it mean to have a ‘problem’ with a Gemara?! When a Gemara says something that you wouldn’t have said on your own, it means that you should ponder and intuit until it settles.
A friend once asked me regarding that Gemara, how come we would learn Tznius from a cat, why wouldn’t we learn Pritzus from fish? The answer is that we are of course the judge, as it says, Elokim Asah Es Ha’adam Yashar. We only have a hard time blazing a new way because our current situation is by default the center, or the zero value — not positive and not negative. For this, the Gemara says that when we would observe animals we would then discern the proper behavior from the natural.
The pagan nations worshipped whichever deity they thought would give them the desired benefits. There wasn’t a notion of accountability to a higher demand. This concept, that we are inherently responsible for our behavior and not just to the local king, originates in the Torah or with those that had a Messora from Adam, Shes, Chanoch, Mesushelach, Noach, Shem and Ever.
There are also certain concepts that different people never thought of as immoral, but up until our time (out time not included) are considered immoral.December 9, 2010 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #716058mosheemes2Member
Do you know of any credible Rabbi who would suggest that in our day and age, an act of pedophilia is not a violation of multiple issurim?December 10, 2010 2:35 am at 2:35 am #716059
I don’t need a Rabbi to tell me that pedophilia is wrong today, but I haven’t derived that from the Torah (maybe from Kedoshim Tehiyu or Dina Dimalchusa).
From the Gemorah it seems that if a girl reached 12 1/2 years old and wasn’t married yet it was a shidduch crisis.December 10, 2010 2:59 am at 2:59 am #716060
There are also certain concepts that different people never thought of as immoral, but up until our time (out time not included) are considered immoral.
Your use of the word “considered” makes me beleve they we are using two different definitions of the word “morality”. When I use the term morality I am refering to “descriptive morality” which Wikipedia explains as:
In its “descriptive” sense, morality refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores that distinguish between right and wrong in the human society. Describing morality in this way is not making a claim about what is objectively right or wrong, but only referring to what is considered right or wrong by people. For the most part right and wrong acts are classified as such because they are thought to cause benefit or harm, but it is possible that many moral beliefs are based on prejudice, ignorance or even hatred. This sense of the term is addressed by descriptive ethics.
You seem to define moratity as “normative morality” which is described as following:
In its “normative” sense, morality refers directly to what is right and wrong, regardless of what specific individuals think. It could be defined as the conduct of the ideal “moral” person in a certain situation. This usage of the term is characterized by “definitive” statements such as “That act is immoral” rather than descriptive ones such as “Many believe that act is immoral.” It is often challenged by moral nihilism, which rejects the existence of an any moral truths, and supported by moral realism, which supports the existence of moral truths. The normative usage of the term “morality” is addressed by normative ethics.December 10, 2010 3:09 am at 3:09 am #716061Trying my bestMember
Bezalel – pedophilia is assur min haTorah involving multiple issurei d’oraysa. Nevertheless, despite modern sensibilities, the Torah allowing a 12 year old to get married is not in any way shape of form anything remotely resembling pedophilia.December 10, 2010 4:31 am at 4:31 am #716062
Trying my best – Why are you even trying to answer such a question? Anyone who could even ask such a question about pedophilia, really has no clue what it is! Even the most immoral goyim who believe in gay lifestyles, abortions, etc., consider pedophilia to be immoral!December 10, 2010 11:33 am at 11:33 am #716063eclipseMember
If anyone thought someone they KNEW was reading their posts,this thread would be very short.The twist this has taken is 100% not for a public forum and plants seeds of distorted thinking about Torah.I respectfully suggest it be closed.December 10, 2010 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #716064RuffRuffMember
Health, did you just say, consider?! Oy. If only you know the wiki diuk…
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