Does Neturei Karta have a point?

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  • #600622

    pushtayid
    Member

    Neturei Karta is obviously an extreme organization that goes too far with their views (such as taking part in a “yahrzeit” for arafat. But even with their extremism, and tell me if anyone disagrees, they do have a point – we are not allowed to establish a jewish state in galus. I dont agree with what they do and their ties with holocaust deniers and terrorists but dont all yeshivas forbid talmidim from going to the israeli day parade and participating in other zionist activities? What do you guys think?

    #843536

    Sam2
    Participant

    Why do you say that it’s forbidden to have a Jewish state in Galus?

    #843537

    akuperma
    Participant

    They are making a point that the way Israel and the Zionist movement are evolving, it will lead to disaster for the Jewish people, and we shouldn’t put all our eggs in one basket. One likelihood is that at some point the Muslims will defeat Israel (eventually). Another possibility is that those countries protecting Israel will lose interest (especially as the holocaust slips from memory over the centuries). Another possibility is that the ruling class in Israel will continually work against the frum community leaving an Israel that culturally and religious “European” but in no way Jewish as we define it. As the hilonim become more and more fanatical (can you imagine anyone 50 years ago believe that the frei Jews today would embrace gay marriage and legalized abortion – who knows what they’ll do in the future), Israel become less and less stable.

    #843538

    onlytruth
    Member

    I definitly agree. Jews may not have a jewish state in galus. For some reason it’s not an enough spoken about topic!

    #843539

    “we are not allowed to establish a jewish state in galus”.

    not everyone holds by this statement..

    #843540

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why do you say that it’s forbidden to have a Jewish state in Galus?

    That was the opinion of the Satmar Rebbe Zt”l (that we can’t establish a government in E.Y. without Moshiach), and arguably the opinion of the vast majority of gedolim before the war (the approach, however, of R’ Reuven Grozovsky, Zt”l and others, after the establishment of a state, was more pragmatic and less idealistic than that of the Rebbe Zt”l.

    However, to say that the group which presently calls itself “Neturei Karta”, “has a point”, would almost be like saying that a teacher who beat a student severely “had a point” because the student did indeed speak in class without first raising his hand.

    #843541

    Jothar
    Member

    I once saw this video of Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro of “torah-true jews” and frumteens.com leading an anti-zionist rally in DC and got nauseated. As the Satmar rebbe ZTL said, when goyim are against zionists they are against Jews. By inciting goyim against israel, they are killing Jews.As someone who is goreim danger for Jews in Israel (even toldos aharon and satmar) by strengthening the hands of the enemies, Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro is now passul, along with his frumteens essays.

    Neturei karta hugs rotzchim who want to kill Jews.

    Their point is that Rav Shteinman shlita and Rav Eliashiv shlita are Zionists, and that those who threaten to kill Jews are our friends. I guess it’s ok to be a Zionist, if this is what Anti-Zionism is. Not saying you should be a Zionist, but anti-zionism is clearly a passul derech.

    #843543

    mik5
    Participant

    you’re absolutely wrong. Where would you have gone in 1939 besides “Palestine”?

    #843544

    sam4321
    Participant

    This is a big debate how to learn the gemara kesuvos 111a.

    #843545

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    Neturei Karta has a point like Hitler (yemach shemo) had a point.

    Hitler (y”sh) felt that (maskilim) Jews were too significant, i.e. assimilated, into German culture and industry, etc. and were having a “bad” (de-Aryanizing) effect on Germany. In a certain sense, maybe that was true. So, does that justify the extermination of SIX MILLION of our grandparents!?!?!

    N.K. believes there can be no Jewish state before mashiach. Maybe that may be true. Does that justify allying themselves with Jew-hating savages who aim to kill another SIX MILLION Jews in Eretz Yisrael (whether they are Zionists or not)?!?!? They are no better than the yishmaeli PEREH/adam they embrace.

    #843546

    sam4321
    Participant

    Sam2: Indeed from that gemara it seems pashut to establish a state by force is assur.Unless you learn that they broke their oath so we don’t have to keep ours( I think I heard this savara before). Va’Yoel Moshe learns that a person is a kofer if he goes against these oaths.

    #843547

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Does Neturei Karta have a point?

    No, They are Moisers. I am sure many a Moiser who informed on people say “He had a point too”

    #843548

    pushtayid
    Member

    I guess I was not clear in my post. Some people are taking it as though I am agreeing with Neturei Karta’s approach. I clearly said i do not agree with what they do. I completely disagree with everything they do – even just quiet protesting against Israel is wrong in my opinion. I am just saying that the underlying idea is widely accepted in the frum community – that zionism is wrong. I was just trying to establish that and get other people’s opinions on that. Please do not accuse me of saying Hitler was correct or beating children for not raising their hand is correct. These comparisons have nothing to do with what I was saying.

    #843549

    SG345
    Member

    Satmar rav ztl said you are allowed to protest zionism in the street. He forbid protesting together with arabs. Their agenda and his agenda were different.

    #843550

    Toi
    Participant

    pyid- if you make a statement that people can misconstrue and call you crazy then they will, no matter how many disclaimers you include.

    #843551

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    pushtayid,

    Please do not accuse me of saying… beating children for not raising their hand is correct.

    I never meant such an accusation, c”v. Please forgive me for not being more clear. My point was that despite the fact that an underlying ideology may be correct, I don’t think the proper context to acknowledge that is a case of its misapplication.

    #843553

    Ofcourse
    Member

    pushtayid, have you e v e r heard one respected Gadol say even one nice thing about NK, or even hint to some saving grace of theirs? That should answer your question.

    #843554

    skiaddict
    Member

    I love the way how on CR if anyone tries to say anything bad about some sections of Jews (eg MO!!!) the whole thread gets shut down and everyone is saying how sick it is to bash yiden and we should all accept our differnces – NK are yiden too and no one can dare deny that!

    #843555

    Sam2
    Participant

    Skiaddict, how have you missed the tremendous amount of “MO” bashing that goes on here? Usually it’s the posts defending “MO” (whatever that means, and no we shouldn’t discuss it here) that aren’t let through. Reform and Conservative are Yidden too, but no one would dare defend what they do.

    #843556

    Ofcourse
    Member

    skiaddict, NK are yiden too and no one can dare deny that!

    Ok, how should we act towards Jewish molesters an murderers?

    #843558

    bezalel
    Participant

    Ok, how should we act towards Jewish molesters an murderers?

    The mods wouldn’t let my first response through but my point was that NK members are treated worse than molesters and murderers.

    #843559

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    None of the 3 Shavuos have anything to do with establishing a state. The Kuzarim were not Mechuyav to shut the lights when they became Jewish.

    Two things are Assur:

    1) To come up to Eretz Yisrael ‘Bechoma’, which means, as a crusade. This did not happen.

    2) Revolting against the nations — breaking out of Galus. Given the circumstances it is questionable if this was transgressed.

    Now, to explain DaasYochid’s point somewhat more, you don’t say they have a point, when it is not their point. You wouldn’t say that the reformers have a point — that there are moral lessons to take from the Torah — because that is not their message; it is what they agree to.

    Being against Zionism is not the innvention of the NK; it is not their point.

    #843560

    Sam2
    Participant

    Bezalel: Only because some people have a Hava Amina that they’re legitimate. No one has to vociferously protest against a murderer because everyone realized how wrong that is. That’s not necessarily the case with the NK.

    #843561

    bezalel
    Participant

    98% of the NK follow R’ Katzenellenbogen and want nothing to do with Hirsch’s followers.

    #843562

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    the three oaths are dependent on the nation of the world who will not destroy Yirael if they try there is no obligation on us to comply

    the UN in 1947 allowed the state to become so there is no revolt only after did they oppose

    NK and their like will be like Korach and his eida when the Moshiach comes

    #843564

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi pushatayid. Your point is one that has merits. But why do you have to associate it with neturei karta? They are traitors and I truly believe they are government plants and not genuine Jews.

    I know you didnt mean this, but it reminds me of a non-Jewish friend I had, while sympathetic to Jewish history, still said to me that I have to admit yemach shmoe had amazing leadership skills and rommel was a great strategist. Cognitively, his statements were like a Salvador Dali painting. I got off at that exit. lol

    I thought the miraculous fact that Eretz Yisrael is again in Jewish hands, is part of prophecy being fulfilled.

    #843565

    “NK are yiden too and no one can dare deny that”

    if you say so, but i’m not 100% convinced they are

    #843566

    Sam2
    Participant

    Rav Schachter says that we can’t lose Eretz Yisroel again. He proves it from a Gemara and a Ramban Al Hatorah (quoting Rav Hertzog). So even though it’s not Al Pi Halachah, it’s still in Jewish hands and we’re Muvtach from HKBH that it won’t leave.

    #843567

    FunnyBunny
    Member

    NK are the “Eyrev Rav” of our generation

    #843568

    Anonym613
    Participant

    The difference between the Satmar and the NK is as follows:

    Both groups believe in the validity of the 3 Oaths, as per the Gemara Kesuvos 111a.

    The Satmar protest on their own, without any affiliation to the Arabs.

    The NK protest together with the Arabs.

    #843569

    passfan
    Member

    Bezalel:

    What are the positions of R’ Katzenellenbogen’s kehilla? And how/what do they disagree with Hirsch?

    #843570

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    For me, it boils down to one simple point…

    The friend of my enemy, IS my enemy.

    #843572

    I’m quoting shmoolik 1:

    “the three oaths are dependent on the nation of the world who will not destroy Yirael if they try there is no obligation on us to comply

    the UN in 1947 allowed the state to become so there is no revolt only after did they oppose

    NK and their like will be like Korach and his eida when the Moshiach comes”

    1) The oaths were between us and Hashem, and between the nations and Hashem. The fact that the goyim broke theirs does not mean we can break ours as well. To compare – if your neighbor is mechallel shabbos, does that mean you can be mechallel shabbos as well?

    2) The “umos” has nothing to do with the UN, but with the people that live(d) in the land (before us – ie, the Arabs). The UN doesn’t have any status in halacha. What counts is what the people who live in the land think about it – and they obviously did not agree to it.

    3) I’d rather say that about the Kahana followers, but fact is that they already are exactly that right now.

    #843573

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    1) Those that hold that it is tied to how we were treated look at the 3 Shvuos like the rules of Galus. If part is not kept, the other part falls away, as well. I personally would not subscribe to this opinion, but there were those that held this way, and I can not mock it.

    2) The legal ruler of the land was the League of Nations (UN wasn’t invented yet) and that’s what counts. Rav Nachman in Eizehu Neshech had people work for him, against their will, because of the king’s law. I never heard of a Halacha that you must listen to every and any goy. You’re lucky no goy ever told you to jump in the lake — because, don’t forget, it is a Yehoreg v’Al Yaavor!

    Besides, you are making a very big mistake by thinking that the land was full of Arabs before Jews came. Arabs came there because of the Jews, because of job opportunities. That is why they settled near Jewish towns.

    3) Perhaps.

    #843574

    akuperma
    Participant

    Their point is that the zionist movement that began in the 1880s is a “dead end”. A Jewish entity in Eretz Yisrael that wants the trappings of a goyish state will not be compatible with Torah, and anything “Jewish” that isn’t based on Torah will eventually disappear. Either it will give up the trappings of a sovereign state or it will give up any pretense of being “Jewish”. Medinat Yisrael as well know is probably doomed in the long run.

    If the growth of the yishuv had occured under Orthodox leadership, even “Modern” or “Mizrahi” leadership, they would have focused on sufficient autonomy to allow Jews in Eretz Yisrael to peacefully live a frum lifestyle, rather than starting a fight with the goyim by demanding political control (meaning non-Jews reduced to “second class” status, something that Arab racist pride will never accept) combined with building a western (Euro-American style) and secular (meaning anti-Islamic as well as anti-Torah) state.

    Has R. Yosef Hayyim Sonnenfeld, probably assisted by Dr. Jacob De Haan (rather than David Ben Gurion) been the dominant figure in the politics of Eretz Yisrael in the first part of the 20th century, Eretz Yisrael would today probably have a Jewish majority but would be part of a much larger Arab/Islamic state (probably a great Syria led by the current King Abdullah II). While we would be “second class” citizens politically (something Orthodox Jews never had a problem with), we’ll have the economic and communal autonomy that would allow Orthodox Jews to flourish without being forced to fight “tooth and nail” for the right to follow a Torah based lifestyle. And in this “alternative history” and interest side effect is that at worst, Hitler would be remembered for expelling Jews from Europe, since the Brits would have had no reason to close their Empire to Jewish refugees (especially since the frum ones would have preferred to join the large and secure Jewish community in the Arab state that almost was established in the post-World War I period).

    #843575

    Health
    Participant

    NK has No point because they do whatever they want. So anything Al Pi Torah that they happen to believe in – is lost with everything else that they do.

    Satmar & Brisk have very good points and I believe they are right when it comes to the Medina!

    #843576

    Avi K
    Participant

    It is an absolute mitzva to have a Jewish state. If the frum Jews of Europe had heeded Rav Kook when the doors were wide open Israel would today be a Tora state (as Rav Kook then stated). Learn Torat Eretz Yisrael of Rav David Samson.

    #843577

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“It is an absolute mitzva to have a Jewish state.”

    Almost every single Godol (except Rav Kook) held it was Ossur to make a Medina in our times. One person’s idea doesn’t make it Halacha!

    #843578

    adams
    Participant

    no point at all, there is nothing of value in NK, and should be avoided by any sane person.

    #843580

    Avi K
    Participant

    Gatesheader, the true analogy is someone reneging on his part of a contract. In any case, Rav Meir Simcha said that being that the Goyim agreed the the establishment of the State it is not rebellion. Not to mention the fact that the three oaths are not brought down as halacha in any of the major works. Not to mention the fact that the miracles of the establishment of the State have shown that the time has come.

    #843581

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, who? Rav Soloveichik supported the establishment of the state. The leader of the Aguda in Eretz Yisrael signed the Declaration. Those in favor of settlement of the Land as a prelude to a state also include the Or Sameach, trhe Avnei Nezer, the Netziv and the Chofetz Chaimand the admors of Hosiatin, Ostrovtza and Gur (the Sefat Emmet)

    #843582

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K – Except for JB your post is an outright lie. E/o knows the Agudah & their Gedolim that you mentioned held it was a Beshas Hadechak. They held if they are going to do it anyway, then you can join to make it as Kosher as possible! Noone held this was the right thing to do, except for Rav Kook!

    #843583

    just me
    Participant

    So you are saying the NK are right and gedolim like R’ Finkle, the Steiple, Chacham Ovadya Yosef and others are wrong?

    I think that once a person denies the Holocaust and hugs people with Jewish blood dripping off their fingers, the rest of what they say is moot.

    #843584

    just me
    Participant

    I heard a bunch of these um…people (we have to be nice) want to move to Lebonon to get away from EY. That shows what they are. I wish them luck with their “cousins”

    #843586

    HaKatan
    Participant

    akuperma, excellent post!

    It is so painfully obvious that Zionism has been a colossal tragedy for our people. Without Zionism there also would be just as much, if not much more, Torah learned in Eretz Yisrael than there is now. (Look at all the “Israelis” who were (in multiple ways) and still are shmad-ed by these reshaim or tinokos shenishbu. Many of these innocent Jews used to be, and still would be, frum jews, if not for the Zionists.)

    Look up the facts on WW II. The lie that had Israel been around that the Holocaust would not have happened or would not have been as bad, is a lie worthy of, ironically, Goebbels YM”Sh, himself.

    #843587

    Avi K
    Participant

    See Mishna Berura 561:2 (written when the Turks were in control) that even when the cities of Yehuda are populated by Jews they are considered desolate so long as there is not Jewish rule. See also (if you have a version not censored by the anti-Zionists) Chiddushei Chatam Sofer Sukka 36a that any work one does in Eretz Yisrael is a kiyum of the mitzva of building the Land. Thus, the zionists were and are filled with mitzvot like a pomegranate.

    HaKatan, if not for the Zionists the Arabs would have slaughtered whatever few Tora learners there were in Eretz Yisrael (as they did in Tarpat). Rav Soloveichik said that if not for the State almost all the surviviors of the Holocaust would have assimilated out of fear and depression.

    #843588

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Avi, that point is debatable. The Arabs were responding to the Zionists before the state was established.

    What is true is that the last peaceful years amongst Muslims was 400 years ago. It was never great.

    It was not good under the Turks and it would not have been good and inhabitable now either under, Arab rule. They are killing Arabs today, not to mention Christians. To think that Jews would do better, is ludicrous.

    #843589

    sushee
    Member

    Haleivi, the Jews lived a lot better under the Turks than under the Christians. Until the zionists radicalized the Arabs (even before the state), while it wasnt ever good under them, it was better than the alternative. And even with their own state now, it is one of the least safe country for Jews to live in.

    #843590

    moi aussi
    Member

    Behar Tsion Tihye Pleita – Erets Yisrael is the safest place on earth.

    #843591

    Avi K
    Participant

    Sushe, the Zionists di not radicalize the Arabs. In fact, just after the Balfour Declaration the Emir Faisal met witrh Chaim Weizman and expressed support for Zionism from an Islamic perspective similar to what Fundamentalists are saying today although without statements about converting us chas veshalom. The radicalization was carried out by the Mufti of Yerushalayim ym”s, whjo was an admirer of yemach shemo in Germany and had delusions of reestablishing the Caliphate (under his rule, of course). Thus, in Tarpat the Arabs massacred non-Zionist Tora learners in Chevron. The mob included those with whom the Jews had long-standing good personal relations.

    As for the pre-Zionist situation is concerned, for years Ashkenazim had to masquerade as Sephardim because any Ashkenazi founs was imprisoned for debts on the Churva synagogue. Not to mention the Damascus blood libel.

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