January 4, 2012 7:09 am at 7:09 am #843592
Sushe, that was the case in 1492, and perhaps another generation thereafter. Since the Age of Enlightenment of western Europe Jews lived in much better conditions then their brothers in the Arab countries. That is why they couldn’t believe that the Holocaust would happen.
In unenlightened Russia and Poland there were pogroms throughout the years, and the same was true in the Arab lands. You can Google “Iraqi kristallnacht”. Also read the book “From Time Immemorial” by Joan Peters for a better understanding of what really transpired and who lived in the land.
Besides for all that, it is too late. The Ottoman Empire no longer exists. The Brits conquered the land. It would not have belonged to the Turks rather than the Zionists, it would have gone straight to the Arabs — the ones that the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh says are worse than the Christians.January 4, 2012 8:26 am at 8:26 am #843593
Haleivi, the Jews in the Arab lands experienced nothing like the pograms that occurred in Russia and Poland. Not to mention the “little things” all over Europe, like blood libels, Christman eve killings after Mass, etc. And the holocaust itself happened in Christian Europe, something monumentally incomparable to anything the Jews in the Arab lands ever experienced in historyJanuary 4, 2012 9:04 am at 9:04 am #843594
Not to mention the Crusades, Spanish expulsion/Inquisition (when the Jews actually ran to the Arab lands), Chelminki massacres… But the holocaust itself makes everything else almost seem small.January 4, 2012 11:10 am at 11:10 am #843595
“HaKatan, if not for the Zionists the Arabs would have slaughtered whatever few Tora learners there were in Eretz Yisrael (as they did in Tarpat). Rav Soloveichik said that if not for the State almost all the surviviors of the Holocaust would have assimilated out of fear and depression. “
Avi, this is clearly not true. Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, not a Zionist, had a cordial relationship with, lihavdil, the Mufti YM”Sh.
According to Rabbi Kaplan who was there, the Chevron massacre was a result of “Shema Yisrael HaKosel shelanu HaKosel Echad” and other Zionist provocations. When you provoke animals, they get violent. These animals happen to be human (“Pereh Adam”, in that order), so there is no excuse for these savage murderers. But the Zionists knew better but didn’t care.
With all due respect to Rav Soloveichik, even if that is true, which I am not at all convinced it is, that doesn’t justify the numerous aveiros and evil deeds committed and allowed in order to make that egel haZahav rise in Eretz Yisrael.
Bottom line is that Zionism is assur (always was, as noted above, according to almost everyone) and in hindsight Zionism is a terrible disaster for our people, so it’s not only assur but also foolish in and of itself.January 4, 2012 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #843596
You are just unaware of what other people went through. True, my grandparents in Russia and Germany did not suffer under the Arabs. Neither did the Arabian Jews suffer under the Germans.
Arabs committed genocide on whole communities. That is not a pogrom, that is Tach v’Tat.
Anyhow, no difference who’s troubles where worse. It was never great under the Arabs, and that’s what counts. It is not even good now, for Arabs. It is a big mistake to think it would have been good for us under them.January 4, 2012 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #843597
Christians committed far far more whole community genocide on us. That’s where tach vtat comes from. Chmielnitzki. Poland. Russia. Lithuania. It was far far worse in Europe. Inquisitions, killed after being blamed for the Black death, expulsions from country after country, crusades, blood libels. Then the holocaust. With so much preceding it over centuries and millenia. Incomparable to the Arabian pennisula.
Nope, it was never good for us anywhere in golus, including under the Arabs as you’ve mentioned their atrocities. But it was incomparibly worse under the Christians. The Jews in the Arab countries werent subject to the same frequency or atrociousness as the Church subjected us to. Though as you’ve said it wasn’t good anywhere. But the Arabs were certainly instigated by the zionists to commit much worse, even considering their ignoble history from before. It cant be demonstrated what if, but I’d venture if not for the political demand for statehood in Palestine, it would still have been better under muslim rule than under christian rule.January 4, 2012 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #843598
They have zero point at all. I dont even believe they are Jews. My suspicions are they are government plants or paid for by George Soros or some other wacko.
They take a point, Zionism, and totally exploit that point to open the door to the absurd, and to antisemitism.
To not want there to be a political Israel IS a point. To then pose in photo opps, arm in arm, huge smiles, with professed enemies of Israel and Jews, such as A-jad, who calls for eventual murder, etc. chas v shalom, is another thing entirely.
This alleged group may as well call for Humpty Dumpty to be king and then shake hands and pose with smiles in pictures along with the rashayim world leaders of today.
Their stance on Zionism is just another hateful thing for them to stand for.
NK’s statements and actions can just as easily be those of the KKK, Xtian hate groups, or other such sort of neo nazi groups, except NK is in Jewish costume.
I would give them zero validity, no matter what they say.January 4, 2012 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #843599
Where are the Jews of Saudi Arabia? Did they migrate? No. They were killed. Read up.
You are bringing up a specific large event of which you don’t know of an Arabian counterpart. Also, you are bringing up events from long ago.
This is not a contest of who is more capable of inflicting harm. The idea is that you are saying it would be just fine living under Arab rule. The problems with that statement are:
Arabs themselves don’t live peacefully under Arab rule.
Arabs have consistantly mistreated Jews.
Arab mistreatment was more fatal. The pogroms usually did not wipe out a whole town.
In the recent history until the Holocaust, which the Arabs backed, there was more aggression under the Arabs.
The trend of recent history is what counts, since that is that is the time that we are living in. The holocaust didn’t happen every ten years, but Arab mistreatment was consistent.
And finally, I don’t care if it was worse under the Christians. I’m not advocating living under Christian rule. Aren’t we talking about Jewish rule?January 4, 2012 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #843600
No one said “it would be just fine living under Arab rule.” In golus no where is pretty or fine for Jews. Yet nothing you brought, as horrible as those events under the Arabs certainly were, disputes that living under christian rule was far worse over time. Both long ago, as the many events I’ve cited, AND recent times, as the European holocaust alone demonstrates.
As far as Jewish rule, aside from the many halachic concerns, on the practical level we see a state of constant wars, terrorism, suicide bombings, rocket attacks and a state of constant war. Even compared to areas of non-Jewish rule where Jews reside, it is less safe under current Jewish rule.January 5, 2012 12:40 am at 12:40 am #843602
You are leading out of the area that we are arguing about.
I’m not really advocating Zionism or Zionists. I just don’t think it’s fair to say that everything would have been fine and dandy under Arab rule. Neither am I sure that the 2 Shvuos were breached.
Had a group of Frum, sincere people been the ones to try and legally gain the land, I’m pretty sure that all Rabbonim would have enthusiastically backed them.January 5, 2012 11:04 am at 11:04 am #843603
“Had a group of Frum, sincere people been the ones to try and legally gain the land, I’m pretty sure that all Rabbonim would have enthusiastically backed them.”
Instead of assuming, ask a Rav if that’s true (it’s not). Frum and sincere or otherwise (and the Zionists were certainly “otherwise”), there is no heter to take the land and it’s also outright stupid to do so, as history has shown. Just for starters, who needs every 18 year old kid to risk their lives in an army?
There were Arab countries where Jews were able to keep their mesorah intact since the FIRST Beis Hamikdash. Naturally, the wicked Zionists (in multiple ways) forced them (in multiple ways) to throw it all away upon their arrival to Eretz HaKodesh.
Witness the “Arab Spring” now. Who knows what the Arab world would look like if they never had an Israel upon which to blame their problems on? But that is conjecture. The point is that many Jews lived for centuries under Arab rule, and while it was not always pleasant and at times the savages would go on a blood-thirsty rampage, it was far better than the “religion of love”.January 5, 2012 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #843604
Let’s not lose focus. The reason I’m saying that it was consistently harsh under Arab rule is a response to what you say that it would have been fine to live under them, in Eretz Yisroel. Even if the Christians were worse that doesn’t change my point that it was not tollerable and stable under the Arabs. Besides, bringing up a certain events that stand out doesn’t either help. Since my point is to judge what it would have like, we should look at the recent trend.
Now to your other point. Since you are discussing what it would have been like in Eretz Yisroel it seems like you are taking for granted that Jews would inhabit the land to a noticeable degree, and that it won’t be considered Ola Bachoma. So we agree on that one. Yet, you still say that it is Assur Gammur to have the land given to you by legal means? Which Shvua is that going against?
By the way, do you really think Israelis are less safe now, in Eretz Yisroel, than they were in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, or Russia and Poland?January 5, 2012 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #843605
For crying out loud. People wanting to independently determine how they live in a nation that is theirs, is fundamental to life on earth.
There are too numerous Xtian based countries.
Too many muslim based countries.
There is one, tiny Jewish state and this is front page news regarding it’s validity???
GIMME A BREAK!!
I heard a humorous story that went like this:
Today, they are making it possible for there to be life on the moon. People can sustain communities on the moon.
So, in light of that, why not give it to the palestinians? They can take as much space as they want!
Someone responded that the palestinians dont want to go to the moon.
Another person said they have a brilliant idea to get the palestinians to go to the moon.
Here is the idea: Send a few Jews to go live on the moon and then the palestinians will demand to go to the moon.January 5, 2012 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #843606
HaLeiVi: Having major wars every 10 years or so, and terrorism throughout, isn’t a worthy tradeoff to populate the land. We needn’t put every 18 year old in harm’s way with so many deaths from wars and terrorism from ’48 until today. We didn’t live under this *constant* threat in Syria before 1900 (about the time when some Jews started demanding a state in Palestine), as we do in Israel now. (Since you brought up “trends”, while there were always anti-semitic outbreaks before, in the State the trend is a constant state of war.)January 5, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #843607
Sushe and HaKatan,
1.Ramban states explicitly that there is a mitzva in every time to go to war to conquer Eretz Yisrael. Some explain Rambam’s silence as his opinion that the mitzva of conquering the Land is included in another mitzva or mitzvot.
2. It is far safer in Israel than in other countries where Jews live, especially if one adds regular crime to hate crime.January 5, 2012 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #843608
Most of the comments about what and how the Jews would live now if- chas vecholilo- they were under Arab rule is irrelevant. The medina israel is here to stay,never to disappear.
I want to point out that the so-called “shalosh shevuos” were breached long ago…with the second bais hamikdosh!! The “shalosh shevuos” quotation comes from Jirmijohu hanovi (27-22) and YET , Ezra, Nechemia and all the Jews who left Bovel DID IT ANYWAY. Why didn’t THEY worry about it?? It was not halacha then and is not halacha now. End of story.January 5, 2012 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #843609
To underscore HaLeiVi’s reply to someone that things would be good under arab rule.
To quote the great, prophetic Rabbi Meir Kahane, zatzl, “How can there be peace between arab and Jew? There is no peace between arab and arab!”
Everything he said about this problem, was true, and has rung true to this very day!January 5, 2012 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #843610
ROB, you’re comparing the Zionist reshaim with Ezra and Nechemiah, a Navi Hashem? You’re beyond reason and living in a fantasy world.
The solid opposition to Zionism WAS Halacha then and IS Halacha now, Zionist fantasies not withstanding.
BE”H, when Moshiach does come (may it be BB”A), that egel haZahav and malchus haRisha will be no more; it will definitely NOT be forever.
Evidently, 99% of the gedolim disagree with your presumption of halacha, and it is also clearly not safer for Jews in Eretz Yisrael than anywhere else. Start with the mandatory draft, the never knowing a day of peace in its mistaken existence, et al.
Rather, the Zionists convinced everyone to have this perverted anti-Torah belief that it’s worth ch”V dying for the land. As the secular Zionists who’ve abandoned the Torah don’t have much spirituality if any to live for, it’s understandable in a perverse way for them to do so. But it’s not Torah. It’s Anti-Torah. The Torah says VaChai BaHem, just for starters.
We don’t know who people would have lived under in Eretz Yisrael, but if not for the wicked Zionists, it would have been no worse than living in England, France or even Morocco and Yemen at the same time period *minus* Zionist provocations and the reactions that caused.
Zionism completely changed the way Arabs and the world view Jews, Zionism is responsible for massive amounts, R”L, of innocent Jewish dam haShafuch and they continue to be like the chazir that puts on a show but is really just lipstick on the same.January 5, 2012 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #843611apushatayidParticipant
It’s nice to argue theory. The fact is, there is an Israeli government. We have to learn to live with it. Unsure how? Follow your leader.January 5, 2012 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #843612Yidish KyndMember
There is not ONE yeshivish goddul who is pro-Zionist, they are All anti-zionist, They only different on which means should be used concerning Zionism.January 5, 2012 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #843613papperMember
Rav Henkin wrote that even though he was opposed to the formation fo the state, now that there is a state we are obligated to work with the state to try to exert a positive influence on the state and to daven for its material success. He thought the Neturei Karta and people who acted as they do were Rodfim.January 5, 2012 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #843614ZeesKiteParticipant
Me? I’m totally against the bashing business, one way or the other. It seems that some just have a bad middah (anger, hate etc.), so they find excuse how to vent, and on whom. The barometer, in my humblekite, should be how they are ‘mekaneh’ and what triggers their ‘kanaus’. Is it like Pinchus (the Kanaai), motivated BY A LOVE FOR K’LAL YISROEL (as seforim point out), a burning zealousness to defend HaShem’s honor, or an inner unrefined, undomesticated anger?
Someone told me, he heard a child list numerous ‘reshaim’ whom we must hate, different views we must appose etc. – at age three! Said he – “See, this child learned sinas yisroel before learning alef bais”.
Is hating Zionists going to produce anything positive? On the other hand, same here with the Neturei Karta.
In my humblekite I believe an open dialouge (cool-headedness) is the ONLY way to get through.January 6, 2012 12:11 am at 12:11 am #843615
hakatan ,masquerading as another rational being, does not answer my question. Jirmijohu spoke these pesukim that what we call now the “sholosh shevuos”. How did ezra, nechemia and all of the jews of that era circumvent the words of jirmijohu???
secondly, the ‘sholosh shevuos’ are not mentioned in ONE sefer halacha. Even the rambam, who writes about anything in his Mishe torah does not mention it. And this is HALACHA??
Thirdly, if you would have learned Kiddushim perek asoroh jochsim, you would have seen that the jews who left “bovel” were not exactly all “mizrach vant” yidden. They were no different, maybe worse, than the “reshoim’ that you call zionists. I call them idealists.
By the way, Nechemia ,for sure, was not a novi. On Ezra, there are different shittos but the return to Eretz yisroel was not talked about by any novi or the subject of any nevuoh.
I’ll ldet Avi k and haleive answer for themselves.January 6, 2012 12:22 am at 12:22 am #843616
YK: Rav Herschel Schachter is a tremendous zionist.
HaKatan: The blood that has been spilled in Israel in the last 60 years is tiny compared to the Churban of Europe in the Holocaust. Leaving Jews in Europe (or anywhere outside Israel) has just the same opportunity for that to happen again.January 6, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #843617
Sam: Your answer to Hakatan doesn’t hold much water. Jews IN Israel are no safer from a future holocaust C”V than Jews outside Israel. In fact they are arguably less safe.January 6, 2012 4:50 am at 4:50 am #843618
Doswin: There is a Ramban Al Hatorah quoting a Gemara that HKBH promised us that Jews will only lose control of Eretz Yisrael twice, not three times. We are Muvtach that there will not be another mass execution in Eretz Yisrael that would cause us to lose E”Y.January 6, 2012 5:41 am at 5:41 am #843619
Avi K -“Sushe, the Zionists di not radicalize the Arabs. In fact, just after the Balfour Declaration the Emir Faisal met witrh Chaim Weizman and expressed support for Zionism from an Islamic perspective similar to what Fundamentalists are saying today although without statements about converting us chas veshalom. The radicalization was carried out by the Mufti of Yerushalayim ym”s, whjo was an admirer of yemach shemo in Germany and had delusions of reestablishing the Caliphate (under his rule, of course). Thus, in Tarpat the Arabs massacred non-Zionist Tora learners in Chevron. The mob included those with whom the Jews had long-standing good personal relations.”
What hypocrisy!!!!! Tell me what religion was the Mufti? Was he perhaps a Muslim???? Why perhaps did this Mufti all of a sudden hate Jews? Maybe it had something to do with certain Jews wanting a state of their own??!?!?!January 6, 2012 5:54 am at 5:54 am #843620
HaLeiVi -“The reason I’m saying that it was consistently harsh under Arab rule is a response to what you say that it would have been fine to live under them, in Eretz Yisroel.
By the way, do you really think Israelis are less safe now, in Eretz Yisroel, than they were in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, or Russia and Poland?”
Excuse me, there was No Syria & Iraq. There was Turkey. And it would have been much better to live under them then these Zionists. As matter of fact, until this recent episode of Israel & the blockade -Turkey was even an ally of Israel!January 6, 2012 7:21 am at 7:21 am #843621
Your “argument” is not valid for a number of reasons. One is as Doswin pointed out. As well, every single drop of blood spilled in Israel over the last 60 years is the Zionists’ responsibility. Every single drop. As is the loss of their souls, except in this regard the Zionists actively and intentionally stripped them of their religion, not merely allowed it to happen under their watch.
Holocaust conjectures are even more foolish. In all the years of our galus, there never was a holocast. To presume that the same thing would have happened again after the unimaginable blood bath that was the holocaust, had there been no State, is beyond the realm of possibility.
On the other hand, there could not have been the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, et al. had Jews NOT been concentrated in Eretz Yisrael. That is for sure.
As is clear to anyone who has not had the wool of Zionism pulled over their eyes, Zionism has been a tremendous disaster for our people.January 6, 2012 9:32 am at 9:32 am #843622tahiniMember
Health, Jews living in Arab lands always had the status of a dhimmi, a second class citizen. Financially and educationally Jews flourised in arab lands, for most of the time they were left in peace compared to Europe’s Ashkenazim, but they also from time to time endured persecution and programs, the Iraqi Farhud of 1941 is a middle-eastern example of Kristlenacht carried out by Muslims. Meshadi Persians Jews are examples of devout Jews who carried on their beliefs inspite of attempts to convert them, I recall a frum relative as a child who had two names, Haji( as in Muslim pilgrim) and Mordecai!January 6, 2012 9:37 am at 9:37 am #843623tahiniMember
Nk were making a sickening point in a demonstration in Manhattan, this time wearing the garb of concentration camp inmates and Nazi inspired gold stars to show solidarity with the monstrous demonstrations held last week in Jerusalem.January 6, 2012 10:20 am at 10:20 am #843624apushatayidParticipant
This thread is headed nowhere.January 6, 2012 10:43 am at 10:43 am #843625
Helath, just as there are machlokets among us there are machlokets among Moslems. The Mufti had delusions of reestablishing the Caliphate with himself as head as I have posted. If he had succeeded c”v he woiuld have reduced the few Jews (he certainly would not have allowed those expelled by the Turks during WW1 to return) to the low status they had under Moslem rule. In any case, it is a mitzva d’Oraita to conquer Eretz Yisrael and establish a state as I have already written several times.
HaKatan, if we would all convert or assimilate into secular Americathat would end the problem forever. Is that what yoou want? Anti-Semitism has nothing to do with a State or not being true-blue Americans, etc. We are hated because we are.January 6, 2012 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #843626
I am happy to see that Hakoton had no answer on what I wrote in rebuttal to his fatuous arguments. Still waiting.
As far as all thid talk and discussion who was what and when did how ,it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. Eretz yisroel exists today as medinat Israel and-nothwithstanding the evil extremists wish- will exist forever, IY”H.
To argue historical issues on what might have been, how would it have been is sterile discussion because no one knows.
If hakoton and health are so concerned about Eretz ysroel ,let them go live there and demonstrate with their NK brethren. Then, at least, I would have some respect for them (as long as they don’t don nazi garb)January 6, 2012 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #843627
Actually, I am almost convinced some people make a commission off each letter they type.
Sometimes, myself included, the point-making in long, repeatitive posts, goes beyond what this medium calls for and by the second line, the reader is off and running.
Actually, I can understand enjoying the thinking process of responding to points, so I guess that is why some threads with thought provoking topics get muddied in the process.
Back to the topic. I think I have changed my mind about NK from where I stated they have no point at all. On second thought, they do have a point; on top of their heads!January 6, 2012 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #843628YW Moderator-80Member
jhere are certain individjuals on this website who “know” a lot of facts but are totally ignorant about Jiddishkeit and its basic principles.
as a moderator ji was able to jelete the vast mayority of his posts.
im afraid this one particular individjual is now going to boldly reemerge and flood the cr with misinformation and misunderstanding.
please everyjone do jour best to ijnore and not encouraje it.January 6, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #843629
Jhank you for the heads up!
: DJanuary 6, 2012 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #843630aaymParticipant
One of the posters said that we shouldn’t forget that NK are also Yidden. The problem is that we didn’t forget that they are yidden, rahther they themselves have forgotten that they are Yidden. There is a major difference, between what they are doing and making a macha’ah.
Since the Neturei Karta act like non-jews rather than like Torah True Yidden, we have a right not to consider them as Jews. Just because they go to shul or keep shabbos it doesn’t mean anything. Let’s remember very simply. In Shamayim there is a scale and one side the mitzvos are placed and on the other side are rachmana litzlan the aveiros…. i am not mekane these individuals.
This as many have mentioned in earlier posts is not what the Rebbe ZT”L had in mind, and had he been alive he would have made an outspoken macha’ah against them.
Hood Shabbos and may moshiach come soon, so that we may live in Eretz Yisroel and see the bais Hamikdash in all its glory, bmiheira!January 6, 2012 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #843631
tahini -“Health, Jews living in Arab lands always had the status of a dhimmi, a second class citizen. Financially and educationally Jews flourised in arab lands, for most of the time they were left in peace compared to Europe’s Ashkenazim, but they also from time to time endured persecution and programs, the Iraqi Farhud of 1941 is a middle-eastern example of Kristlenacht carried out by Muslims. Meshadi Persians Jews are examples of devout Jews who carried on their beliefs inspite of attempts to convert them, I recall a frum relative as a child who had two names, Haji( as in Muslim pilgrim) and Mordecai!”
I was talking about living in Palestine under Turkish rule. They might have been second class citizens, but there wasn’t the constant bloodshed you have now in Medinat Israel!
Stop drinking the Kool-Aid that we are better off now that the Tzionim took over!
Tell me the percentage of Jews that died under Turkish rule and compare it to the percentage now under the Tzionim!January 6, 2012 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #843632
Avi K -You didn’t answer the question! What made this Mufti all of a sudden an Antisemite -if it wasn’t the Tzionim?!?!?!?
And any Mitzva to conquer anything would and has to be under Torah Auspices. Sorry the Koifer Tzionim don’t cut it!January 6, 2012 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #843633
I agree with you and will up the ante.
The NK are evil to the enth degree!!
I say that for this reason:
If you are against a political Israel, then be so in a political/religious context.
BUT THERE IS NO EXCUSE to openly, warmly embrace the leader of a country responsible for deaths of Jewish men, women, children, and babies.
It is the same leader who supplies the munitions to so many terrorist groups, as we speak, creating the bloody headlines that break our hearts.
And what is this leaders thoughts behind his open statement to wipe Israel off the map?
nk embraces this leader??? They are Jews????? No, they are the satan playing another game to amuse itself.
Excuse me while I go throw up at the thought of giving nk even so much as a nano-speck of legitimacy!January 6, 2012 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #843634lesschumrasParticipant
Heath how much Torah education did the Turks fund? Why do the evil tzionim grant army exemptions to Chareidim instead of making army service mandatory for everybody?January 7, 2012 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #843636
1. Who said he “suddenly” became an anti-Semite. He represented that faction of Islam which divides the world into the world of Islam and the world of war and sees Jihad as being a literal war against the “non-believers”.
2. Rav Kook likened this to the ignorant workmen coming into the Bet HaMikdash in their soiled clothing and muddy boots to make repairs (bedek haBayit). He also blamed the frum Jews of Europe for not making aliya when hte gatres were wide open under Sir Herbert Samuel and “taking over” the Zionist movement democraticly. This also applies today. As rabbiof berlin wrote, Medinat Yisrael is a fact. The question is (and I heard this in the name of Rav Dessler): what do we do with it? There are approximately 700-800K Orthodox Jews outside Israel. If they would make aliya, become citizens and vote this would represent approximately 12 (depending on what percentage vote as a proportion of the total voters) additional Knesset seats. Hamevin yavin.January 8, 2012 1:08 am at 1:08 am #843637
Avi: He said so himself. The Rasha Mufti told Rav Yosef Chaim that if the Jews simply continue to live here then there will be no problems. But if they try to rule over the Arabs then there will be war.
The Zionists had no problem with that, and in addition, again contrary to the gedolim’s correct advice, foolishly “declared war” on Hitler YM”Sh, too, which only enraged that rasha more and he at some point changed his plan from expulsion to lihashmid (vi)laHarog uLiAbeid, ch”V.
The Zionists do not care to admit they are responsible for all the bloodshed since 1948 and that they *intentionally* perpetrated massive spiritual destruction, and those who do admit these travesties are proud of both of those facts. Nor do Zionists manage to recall that almost every gadol said, very correctly, that the State will be a disaster (“they will create more problems than they think they are solving”, were the Chofetz Chaim’s words).
Rav Kook can’t blame the frum Jews of Europe for following halacha and ignoring Rav Kook’s daas yechidi and refusing to be “oleh bichoma” (regarding which Shlomo HaMelech wrote such dire consequences), especially when they were busy learning Torah instead, thus keeping the world going.
Regarding the reality as it is, this is an entirely different matter. As BTGuy wrote, no, the NK are obviously not correct in being mischaber laRasha and in endangering any Jews. But whatever may need to be done today, bishas haDchak, as a matter of practical need, has ZERO bearing on whether or not the Zionists were correct in creating a State (they were clearly, in every way, NOT correct).
Essentially, the Zionists started a world-wide “forest-fire”, and now, other than the Zionists, everyone (including NK, misguided as they may be) wants to put out that fire. So just because we don’t want their fire to burn any more, does not mean we agree with them for foolishly and brazenly starting this conflagration when everyone else knew all along what an out of control disaster Zionism was and is.January 8, 2012 1:51 am at 1:51 am #843638
“The Zionists do not care to admit they are responsible for all the bloodshed since 1948”
They are responsible for Arab violence even before ’48, from the time they started pushing for statehood in the early 1900’s.January 8, 2012 2:09 am at 2:09 am #843639
HaKatan: Your revisionist history is shocking and repulsive. The Zionists “declared war” on Hitler and caused him to want to kill all Jews? You have to back up a claim like that before you say anything close to it.January 8, 2012 2:58 am at 2:58 am #843640
HaKatan, actually the Zionists made a deal to transfer German Jews to Eretz Yisrael. They would have transferred all of Europe’s Jews if the British ym”s had not stopped them.January 8, 2012 5:28 am at 5:28 am #843641mr coffee roomMember
You guys are all getting totally off topic, chances are that if your not satmar you don’t hold what they do, even off they have some validity, they make serious chillul hashems and should b stopped. How much of their “hashkafa” is Torah hashkafa is very debatable. For real Halacha or hashkafa issues, there’s no one size fits all, go ask your rov. CR is for advice and opinions, and none of the CR users are a Baal shita when it comes to any real issues, so stop wasting your time, and others’.January 8, 2012 5:29 am at 5:29 am #843642
Sam2 and Avi K.
No, it is the Zionists who are “shocking and repulsive”, though I did not blame them for the Holocaust, ch”V.
Incidentally, they did a pretty good job of “explaining” themselves, though.
The web is full of the expose of this dirty and shameful (if you are a Zionist) history, but I know links aren’t allowed here.
So please Google “Zionists declared war on Hitler”, without the quotes. Take your pick of the results, though some sites are more suitable than others. That will explain the reference above.
Read R’ Michoel Ber Weismandel’s Min Hameitzar.
Google the following quote from Ben-Gurion:
“If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative.”
And this one from Chaim Weizmann:
[for Palestine]. The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in a cruel world … Only the branch of the young shall survive. They have to accept it.”
And from Yitzhak Gruenbaum, the chairperson of the committee set up by the Zionists, nominally to investigate the condition of European Jews:
“When they come to us with two plans – the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe or the redemption of the land – I vote, without a second thought, for the redemption of the land. The more said about the slaughter of our people, the greater the minimization of our efforts to strengthen and promote the Hebraisation of the land. If there would be a possibility today of buying packages of food with the money of the Karen Hayesod [United Jewish Appeal] to send it through Lisbon, would we do such a thing? No. And once again no!”
That’s for starters.January 8, 2012 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #843643
HaKatan, two possibleexplanations were given by a NYTimes book reviewer edited, we don’t allow links
1. Ben-Gurion was cynically writing off half of Europe’s Jews
2. He was explaining that without a Jewish state they would be doomed anyway.
This could also apply to Gruenbaum’s statement. Weizman’s obviously means that the old ones had no hope and the Zionists had to save whom it was possible to save. In any case, you do not mention the transfer plan whose goal was to bring over all of Germany’s Jews nor do you mention Ben-Gurion’s insistence that all Jews would have th right to make aliya despite the desperate economic condition of the new state. Nor do you mention the fact that the albeit controversial Rudolf Yisrael Kastner saved the Satmar Rebbe and other religious leaders.
Nor do you mention the Zionists of other political stripes, such as Jabotinsky, who warned the Jews of Europe of what was being planned to no avail.
So far as the “declaration of war” is concerned, this refers to the boycott of German goods instituted by various Jewish organizations. This was at a time when a united boycott could have brought down the Nazi government and prevented even the early discriminatory laws. After the Nazis felt strong enough there entire goal was to wipe out the Jewish people c”v. Even towards the end of the war they diverted railroads desperately needed to bring supplies to the front to bringing Jews to concentration camps.
In nay case, we are arguing about people who have long gone on to their final judgements. The State of Israel is a fact. Make aliya, become a citizen and at least vote for change.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.