Does Neturei Karta have a point?

Home Forums Eretz Yisroel Does Neturei Karta have a point?

Viewing 35 posts - 151 through 185 (of 185 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #843695

    Health
    Participant

    Sam -“Health: You are trying to create a Halachic concept by taking line from Aggadic Midrashim and giving a Halachic P’shat in them? Come on. You know that’s not how Halachah works.”

    I’m not going to play this game with you. These are basics of our Torah.

    “And who says the difference was Emunah? Maybe the difference was that HKBH promised this to their forefathers? That makes much more sense, since the Passuk itself tells us that B”Y didn’t believe Moshe.”

    “Lo Nigalu Avosaynu MeMitzrayim Elah B’zcus Amonah (Emunah)” – Yalkut Shemoni B’shalach

    This isn’t good enough because it’s Aggada, not Halacha?

    Well here is Halacha -“And because of the following I listed the Din of Megadef (cursing) in the Halachos of Avoday Kochuvim because both are Kofrim B’Ikkar!” -Rambam -Hilchos Avodas Kochuvim

    Perek 2 #6.

    #843696

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: You didn’t quote that Yalkut Shimoni last time. It’s nice that you expect me to know it by heart, but unfortunately I don’t. Sorry. And your Rambam is interesting. There is definitely some connection between the two. That still doesn’t prove your point that the Gemara says it’s only Muttar to make fun of Avodah Zarah and you add Korfim to that list.

    #843697

    adams
    Participant

    So the permissibility to curse at women who are dressed tznius but not exactly as you would like is based only on the Rambam?

    #843698

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, I already posted what the Chatam Sofer says about mixing Aggada and Halacha.

    #843699

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Neteuri Karta is not legit.

    In fact, the Magna Karta was not legit either.

    Upon further examination, anything with Karta in it is trouble…

    Jimmy Karta was not legit..

    See, I told you so….

    #843700

    Health
    Participant

    adams -“So the permissibility to curse at women who are dressed tznius but not exactly as you would like is based only on the Rambam?”

    If you are talking to me -I never said that. Don’t put words in my mouth.

    #843701

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“There is definitely some connection between the two. That still doesn’t prove your point that the Gemara says it’s only Muttar to make fun of Avodah Zarah and you add Korfim to that list.”

    You keep arguing after I proved you wrong. Why?

    You see from the Rambam that AZ is a type of kefira. So at least the two are the same, if not that Kefira is worse. So of course you can make fun of Kofrim!

    #843702

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I was proven wrong? From what? Your Agaddic Diyukim that didn’t mean anything? I have a question for you: If it’s a Mitzvah to make fun of Kofrim the same as A”Z, why didn’t the Gemara or the Rambam say so? You’re grasping at straws with your Diyuk in the Rambam (you may have proven that an atheist has the same Din as an Oved Avodah Zarah L’davar Zeh, but that’s it) and you’re using an anachronistic concept of the word “Kopher” and branching it over many things that it shouldn’t be branched over.

    #843703

    Josh31
    Participant

    The Right Wing is busy creating a new Maseches Kofrim.

    Rule 1: All views to the Right of the Yated Neeman are not Kefirah, but all views to the Left are.

    #843705

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: I was proven wrong? From what?”

    From the Rambam.

    “You’re grasping at straws with your Diyuk in the Rambam (you may have proven that an atheist has the same Din as an Oved Avodah Zarah L’davar Zeh, but that’s it)”

    It’s no Diyuk -he says it outright!

    “and you’re using an anachronistic concept of the word “Kopher” and branching it over many things that it shouldn’t be branched over.”

    A Kopher is a denier like an atheist. I didn’t branch out at all. I didn’t say a Kopher B’dovor Echad, even though they have a Din of Kopher B’ikkar. I said a Kopher B’Ikkar has the same Din as a Oived Kochavim. And you can do to them like you do to any O’K!

    I’m sorry this is such a Chiddush to you, but to me this is Pashut!

    #843706

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Josh, I believe your post’s assertions have no basis in reality, for a number of reasons, including that many people do not subscribe to that fine publication. So, it seems, perhaps you meant:

    “The Left Wing is busy creating a new Maseches Kulos shelo birshus HaTorah vi-she-afilu lo birshus Rav JBS.

    Rule 1: All views to the Left of traditional Orthodoxy’s base line are not Assur, but all views to the Right are.”

    #843707

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: It is very hard to say that a Kopher B’dikduk Echad Midivrei Sofrim has the same status as an Oved Avodah Zarah. He may have no Chelek in Olam Habah, but he’s not an Oved Avodah Zarah.

    #843708

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Does anyone actually know families who are NK?

    I really think they are government plants, much like the government does to infiltrate outlaw motorcycle gangs by having their agents live like 1%ers full time. In this case, I think this group of imposters is doing it for political reasons.

    I cannot get how any religious Jews can run to befriend a leader of a country with a big, hearty handshake and smile, who wants to administer, chas veshalom, harm, at the very best, to Jews…..and the members of NK that do that, end up being celebrated asthe poster children for that organization.

    I wonder what anyone really knows about anyone who claims to be an NK member.

    #843709

    HaKatan
    Participant

    BTGuy, I’ve never met any, personally, and their methods, as portrayed in the media, are obviously not halachicly appropriate (unless they consider it pikuach nefesh to do so?), and what you propose that there’s an ulterior agenda does seem possible.

    But their point that Zionism has wrongly decided to append itself to Judaism and that the two are fundamentally not compatible with each other (but, whatever your thoughts are on the pros and cons of Zionism, Zionism is certainly not part of the Jewish faith, and (both the Jews and) the goyim should know that) is still valid even if their methods for conveying that aren’t.

    #843710

    realist4u
    Member

    Point or no point, would there be this much torah and as many gedolei torah in EY had it not become a jewish state? Would we be able to visit the kossel? There are many incredible things about this state from the jewish perspective. Can we say that the Israeli Government acts according to the exact way the torah wants it to be run, of course not, but at least we have the place “yerushalyim” where we can visit and get uplifted, to me that overrides the lack of a perfect halachakly run Government. We dont have to be Zionists to enjoy EY.

    #843711

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some want the benefits of E’Y without paying the price

    #843712

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, you are arguing from the converse. Saying that being the az is a type of kefira means that all kefira is az is like saying that the fact that cats are animals means that all animals are cats.

    BT, I have often suspect that the pashkevillim were put up by Leftists in order to discredit the frum community. BTW, a former Yerushalayim city councillor from Meretz who left said that she became disillusioned when representatives of a Haredi party came to the office. When she asked someone what they were doing there he said that the media had been ignoring both parties so they were cooking up a confrontation. Maybe this is why she came closer to Judaism but did not become fully observant.

    #843713

    HaKatan
    Participant

    realist: There are the proverbial silver linings in the cloud. That doesn’t mean we prefer a rainstorm to sunshine.

    But the answer to your rhetorical questions are, unfortunately, yes, there would have likely been more Torah in E”Y had Zionism never existed.

    Granted, there are many yeshivos in Eretz Yisrael, and those are theoretically protected by the State of Israel. But witness the tens of thousands of Jews including their descendants who the Zionists intentionally stripped of their Judaism, and, through the IDF and other cultural organs continue to CH”V de-Judaize them today. Many had their mesorah intact from Bayis Rishon! Are they not part of the cheshbon?

    And there are many Torah communities outside Eretz Yisrael, Lakewood for example, that are malei Torah viLomideha. They were built with Jewish blood, sweat and tears (and money). There were many areas in Eretz Yisrael that were purchased and built up by Jews well before Zionism entered the world stage. There is every reason to believe such enterprises would have multiplied had Zionism not reared its traitorous and disastrous head.

    Even after Zionism became a force on the world’s political scene, Jerusalem would have become a UN-run “International city”, at worst, as envisioned in the mid 1900s. The Kosel would thus have been just as accessible, if not more so, had Zionism never come about.

    Chasdei Hashem Ki Lo Samnu, there are still benefits that the State of Israel does provide, including access to the Kosel, despite the many travesties wrought by Zionism. And if you live in Eretz HaKodesh under their protection then I don’t dispute the Hakaras haTov that would then come up. But none of that justifies Zionism nor is any of these benefits possible solely because of Zionism. They hijacked the course of our history, to our tremendous detriment, and this point is largely unknown.

    Besides, NK doesn’t care that the government is not run kiHalacha. Because there is no way to run, kiHalacha, a government in Eretz Yisrael until Moshiach comes BB”A. It’s like attempting to run a beis haBaal according to halacha. It’s paradoxical and absurd.

    #843714

    Think first
    Member

    Yes they show a very good point


    That people can take something out of proportion when not guided by gedolim. And no they don’t have dedolim backing them, although the satmar rebbe was strong in his opinion regarding zionism he would cry about where they’ve taken this agenda!

    #843715

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: It is very hard to say that a Kopher B’dikduk Echad Midivrei Sofrim has the same status as an Oved Avodah Zarah. He may have no Chelek in Olam Habah, but he’s not an Oved Avodah Zarah.”

    I didn’t say he was -I said since AZ is a type of Kefira -whatever you can do to an AZ guy -you can do to a Koifer B’Ikkar. Stop making out that Kofrim are better than people who are Oiver AZ!!!

    #843716

    Avi K
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    1. The Medina through its various organs, including the IDF, supports Tora instituions and learners. It even supports those who are not exactly learning full-time. If not for this they would have to (gasp) work for a living.

    2. Many of that Jewish money came from Jews whp had been stripped of their Judaism by the temptations of the goldene medina and felt guilty about it.

    3. Do you really think that the UN would support Tora? Anyway, the Jordanians occupied Yehuda veShomron and Yerushalayim in nay case and would still be in control. Don’t forget, the Arabs rejected the partition plan that included internationization. The Kotel would be inaccessible and Jews would not be allowed to set foot in the Old City.

    4. See “Kol HaTor” of Rabbi Hillel Shklover that there are actually two mashiachs, Mashiach ben Yosef, whose job is kibbutz galuyot and building the material aspect of Eretz Yisrael (Rav Kook held that he is the Zionist movement in general, and Herzl in particular. See “Hesped B’Yerushalim in “Maamarei HaRaya”), and Mashiach ben David, whose job is building the spiritual aspect culminating in the Bet HaMikdash.He aslso says that according to the Gra in the time of ikveta d’Mashicha the Chet HaMeraglim will infect many in the Tora world.

    5. See Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1 that the Geula comes slowly in stages. See also Rabbi Elazar Azkari’s commentary, Perush Baal Sefer Charedim, that “they did not want to mention the sorrow, the blackness of balck, because they only wanted to mention the lights which gradually increase”.

    6. If you believe that the Zionists “hijacked the course of our history” then you are a kofer ba’ijar as you obviously do not believe that Hashem runs the world (see Mishlei 21:1 that Hashem controls the heart of a king (there is also a well-known maxim that He controls the hearts of kings and ministers but I could not find the source.

    7. Learn Hilchot Melachim of Rambam as well as commentators on the mitzva of apopointing a king and judges such as Abarbanel, Rav Hirsch and the Netziv as well as various places in Halacha as well as Aggada and Midrashim (for good advice not halachot) and you will see how to run a state according to halacha.

    #843718

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: “Stop making out that Kofrim are better than people who are Oiver AZ!!!”

    Why? You need to prove to me that they are worse. Once again, you are lumping far too many people under the umbrella of “Kofrim”. There are many different levels of Kofrim and there are probably different ways to relate to them in this case.

    #843719

    Health
    Participant

    realist4u -“There are many incredible things about this state from the jewish perspective.”

    Incredible -Yes, but not good!

    “Point or no point, would there be this much torah and as many gedolei torah in EY had it not become a jewish state? Would we be able to visit the kossel?”

    There would be more Torah and possibly Moshiach would be here by now! Jews were allowed to visit the Kosel before the existence of the State!

    #843720

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“1. The Medina through its various organs, including the IDF, supports Tora instituions and learners. It even supports those who are not exactly learning full-time. If not for this they would have to (gasp) work for a living.”

    False! Many Yeshivos right now (gasp) don’t take money from the Medina and they survive just fine!

    “3. Do you really think that the UN would support Tora? Anyway, the Jordanians occupied Yehuda veShomron and Yerushalayim in nay case and would still be in control. Don’t forget, the Arabs rejected the partition plan that included internationization. The Kotel would be inaccessible and Jews would not be allowed to set foot in the Old City.”

    The Turks should be running Palestine and you wouldn’t have all these problems! The UN can’t run itself, let alone another country. Jordan only took the West Bank & the Kosel because the Tzionim decided to start up with the Goyim. Before that they allowed Jews to visit the Kosel!

    #843721

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Why? You need to prove to me that they are worse.”

    Once again, I don’t need to prove they are worse. I proved that they are at least the same. So whatever you can do to one -you can do to the other!

    #843722

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Enabled the creation of one of the most innovative countries in the world, inspiring its scientists and engineersand doctors to change and save millions of lives. Given his zroah netuyah to make the IDF one of the most formidable armies in the world only decades after their being utterly defenceless (also his will). Saved the country and every resident in it from dozens of ballistic missiles. Brought about through his nisim using the heads and hearts of Israel the beginning of kibutz goliyos from Arab countries, Ethiopia, the USSR in the face of violence, antisemitism and starvation. Provided through his bounty and his blessing the infrastructure upon which the largest number of bnei Torah are able to learn in the largest number of yeshivos and kollelim in the history of am Yisroel.

    Not one single element of this happens in a vaccum. This was brought about by hakodosh boruch hu and continues to be so, along with his continuing rotzon for us to improve and perfect it, as we must improve and perfect ourselves.

    edited. Sorry, you can’t accuse people of that.

    #843723

    Abelleh
    Participant

    HaKatan: “Zionism is certainly not part of the Jewish faith”

    Zionism happens to have basis in the Torah. The pasuk says “?????????????? ???-???????, ????????????-?????: ???? ????? ???????? ???-???????, ???????? ??????.” (Bamidbar 33:53). The Ramban believes this is a mitzvah di’oraisah to establish the medina (Mitzot ShShichach Harambam — Mitzvah 4), and while the Rambam doesn’t count it as a mitzva to have a medina before mashiach comes, he does believe that one MUST continue the medina if already established. [T]here’s a fantastic shiur by Rav Shachter on the topic

    Edited for link. Please just give directions how to google for it.

    #843724

    yichusdik
    Participant

    OK, mods, I’ll put it another way, without accusation. How can anyone see the manner in which HKBH has acted and used and blessed not just am yisroel but the world through the State of Israel and still consider it the wellspring of evil it has been accused of being here?

    Thank you. That’s much better.

    #843725

    147
    Participant

    pushtayid:- please awaken to reality. Do you remember WW2? when we Jews had no-where to escape to. As my saintly Rosh Yeshiva ZTKLLH’H who was very right winged taught me, B’H we have a Medinas Yisropel for which we are Mechuyov to be Makir Tov, since now all Jews, be they Ethiapion, Russian, or any other far flung corner of the earth, they now B’H have a haven to escape to, thanks to our Beloved Medinat Yisroel.

    We don’t even begin to comprehend what a Berocho, Medinas Yisroel is to the Jewish people. Needless to say, like many other Tinokos hseNishboru [such as I see at my work place every day] they need to repent & become more religious {B’H for proportional Representation in the Knesset, so that religious parties are of consequence in Israel}, but this in no way justifies the sickos of Naturei Karta nor Satmar to ever lament our glorious Medinas Yisroel. I am a Makir Tov!!

    #843726

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health,

    1. On the contrary, they take and take and take. Some then bite the hand that feeds them and defame the Medina.

    2. The Turks? Erdogan? You really are living in never, never land. As for the Kotel, Arab houses were right up against it leaving almost no room for daveners. The Medina razed the houses and built a nice plaza.

    Abelleh, some say Rambam does not count it as a separate mitzva because he includes it in yishuv Eretz Yisrael.

    #843727

    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“OK, mods, I’ll put it another way, without accusation. How can anyone see the manner in which HKBH has acted and used and blessed not just am yisroel but the world through the State of Israel and still consider it the wellspring of evil it has been accused of being here?”

    And these blessings would have been ten-fold if the Tzionim didn’t make a Medina! There is nothing good about this Medina!

    #843729

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“1. On the contrary, they take and take and take. Some then bite the hand that feeds them and defame the Medina.”

    I just answered this in the topic of “Taking Traif Money”.

    “2. The Turks? Erdogan? You really are living in never, never land. As for the Kotel, Arab houses were right up against it leaving almost no room for daveners. The Medina razed the houses and built a nice plaza.”

    This post made me laugh. Upto very recently the Turks were friends with the Jews! You are living in never, never Tzioni land!

    And I really want to thank the Tzionim for razing those houses -now they have even another thing to hate us for!

    #843730

    yichusdik: I don’t see the proof. Who says it’s not despite what we do?

    Have a look at the Shlosh Esrei Middos.

    #843731

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I think you’re not quite reading the Rambam properly. You are seeing that the Rambam says that Ovdei A”Z are included in Kofrim because they are Kofrim (you are giving the word “Kofrim” a title and a Halachic status, which I don’t think exists). I read the Rambam as saying that Ovdei A”Z are included in those who deny HKBH. There are many types of Kofrim, and sometimes we have to relate to some of them differently.

    #843732

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“There are many types of Kofrim, and sometimes we have to relate to some of them differently.”

    I thought I was pretty clear -Tzionim are Kofrim B’ikkar -so this is the worst type and Kofrim B’ikkar are at least as bad as Ovdei AZ!

Viewing 35 posts - 151 through 185 (of 185 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending