February 23, 2021 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1951329Tristate JewParticipant
Every post is another plug for the experimental vaccine of which no one knows the long term effect… I’m beginning to suspect that they are making money from this…February 23, 2021 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1951514MadeAliyahParticipant
Take the vaccine, it’s the best thing ever.
(YWN, that’ll be $15 USD)February 23, 2021 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1951526emeslaamitoParticipant
No, they’re trying to save lives. Unfortunately, there is a vocal minority that is spreading mis-information that they read on a website or watched a video about. YWN is just publicizing facts and daas Torah. If you don’t believe me, next time you read an anti vax article, read what the website says about the Holocaust. Or whoever made or promoted that video, what they say about it. I dare you. I DON’T CARE IF THE VACCINE WORKS OR NOT, I CATE THAT ALL MAINSTREAM RABBONIM HAVE PUBLICLY CALLED TO TAKE IT. END OF STORY. IT’S CALLED HISHTADLUS. IF I DIE, I DIE, BUT I WILL TELL HASHEM I TRIED MY BEST. AND YES, I GOTBBOTH DOSES, AND AM NOT DEAD.February 23, 2021 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1951528☕️coffee addictParticipant
You choose to patronize this site so if you think they do you can take your business elsewhere, no one is forcing you to patronize them (at least I hope not)February 23, 2021 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1951531yaakov doeParticipant
Tristate Jew – Who do you think could be paying for news of many different vaccines? There are a lot of things that we don’t know the long term effects of including processed foods, flu shots, exposure to LED light and cell phones. We have to place our trust in the doctors and rabbonim who advocate vaccination to save lives. With 500,000 already dead we must trust that the vaccine will prevent the virus and do no harm.February 23, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1951563
“Every post is another plug for the experimental vaccine of which no one knows the long term effect”
Actually we do know the long term effect. You get the vaccine you aren’t dead from COVID.
I have seen no advertising from Pfizer, or Moderna, or AstraZenica, or Johnson & Johnson, or the Russian or Chinese governments here.February 23, 2021 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1951565Tristate JewParticipant
If they were trying to save lives they would promote much safer treatments and prevention options like vitamin D, HCQ, ivermectin. If every doctor would prescribe these medications and others medications like them that have been around for years and are well understood and tolerated, this pandemic could be over tomorrow. Nobody has to get COVID. There are safe prevention options.February 23, 2021 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1951588ubiquitinParticipant
Yes, it’s all a selfish plot to keep people alive and clicking on their website so the ads get more viewsFebruary 23, 2021 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1951587LibParticipant
Of course they do! They make money from ads. If people get sick and can’t log on, or die, Ch”V, then the revenue would go down. But I don’t think that’s why they’re publishing mainstream the recommendations. I think they people go into the business of spreading news because they enjoy spreading news. I think they want to make it clear that they believe very strongly that the vaccine saves lives statistically, which it appears to do. Catching covid also gives a comparable level of protection, but comes with awful short term risks and side effects, and you could give it to others, and there’s no excuse for that, R”L.February 24, 2021 8:18 am at 8:18 am #1951651Avi KParticipant
Tristate Jew, do you make money by opposing them?February 24, 2021 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1951661avrahParticipant
One can always ask if someone is trying to help and save lives or make money. One could ask about hydroxychloroquine the same question. Was it promoted to make money or save lives? I know that line may upset some. Asking the question about YWN may upset some also. I will point out one thing. People think and do what they think and do, and almost nothing will change and impact that. Enjoy trying.February 24, 2021 8:26 am at 8:26 am #1951668MadeAliyahParticipant
Congratulations @Lib, on your first post in eleven years (!) of being a YWN participant.
Your self-control is admirable.February 24, 2021 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1951692
“much safer treatments and prevention options like vitamin D, HCQ, ivermectin”
None of those are as safe as the vaccine, or a ywhere close to being as effective. HCQ is useless for COVID. Vitamin D is a good thing to have adequate levels of even without a pandemic. The ivermectin studies in humans have been a disappointment; it is not a cure.February 24, 2021 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1951693takahmamashParticipant
Tristate Jew, please tell us about your medical, science and/or public health background and degrees. Tell us about your research as well; please include any research that *doesn’t*
include web sites.February 24, 2021 8:30 am at 8:30 am #1951695
“There are safe prevention options.”
True. Permanent lockdowns, social distancing, and mask wearing are all quite safe.
The vaccines will allow us to get back to normal lives.February 24, 2021 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1951705
Indirectly. YWN needs to avoid antagonizing most of the “frum” establishment, and they favor going along with the politically correct position that Covid19 is an existential threat to society, and the vaccines are critical for survival. Almost all of their advertisers would be forced to withdraw if YWN did otherwise. If you clash with the “party line”, you get cancelled.
The issue with credibility on Covid19 (especially among frum Jews since we are radically younger than the rest of society, plus our “older than boomers” age group are diminished due to holocaust) is that our personal experience doesn’t reflect the horrendous plagues in the past. This is true of many goyim as well. In past epidemics, most children lost multiple playmates. People of working age were dying so fast that the economy was undermined. In past epidemics, the death rate rose by many multiples (e.g. a smallpox epidemic is 16th century America killed over 50% of the population), whereas with Covid19 the death rate rose by about one-sixth, killing about one in a thousand, and numerous people had Covid19 or were quarantined without getting seriously ill.
Had those in charge not overstated the seriousness of Covid19, and relied on facts and science rather than scare mongering, there wouldn’t have been any issues (there also wouldn’t have been any school closings, any bans on davening, any closing “non-essential” business, and no recession). The real danger is if there ever is a serious public health threat, it won’t be taken seriously.February 24, 2021 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1951713catch yourselfParticipant
Somehow, people who believe this kind of garbage never imagine that the “experts” who promote the conspiracy theories have their own vested interests.February 24, 2021 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1951780Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
>> is that our personal experience doesn’t reflect the horrendous plagues in the past.
Agree. There are 2 parts here:
1) pandemic is happening in the hospitals and nursing homes. you do not always see it. I heard a Rav on Zoom for several weeks (WITH a negative test but with a cough I never heard before), this made enough of an impression. That is why you need to use your math skills to evaluate reports of number of people dying and sick to understand something that is not in front of your eyes. There are lots of people who work with infectious diseases or radiation who are capable of keeping precautions without seeing a threat. Or you can talk to hatzolah people for their impressions.
2) numbers are indeed lower than under Bubonic plague. It is to a credit of humanity that we are taking measures to save lives of many of older and sicker people, and not behaving like Amalek.
Maybe this a double test Hashem sent us – first for our intellectual abilities and second for rahmanus. Maybe a final test before Maschiach comes?February 24, 2021 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1951919
In the above example, a person had a horrible cough but tested negative, but (adding my comments) it appears that due to the scare-mongering tactics the person (and/or friends and relations) freaked out believe he was dying. So instead of resting, drinking tea and chicken soup, and maybe getting a prescription cough medicine, he went to hospital taking up valuable resources and exposing himself to Covid19.
If this is the test before Maschiach comes, it seems that Ha-Shem has really given up on us and is dumbing down the test.February 24, 2021 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1951943
To be clear, because I know some people who have a different opinion than mine will immediately jump to conclusions, I am NOT anti-vax, and I dont believe YWN is promoting the vaccine for money. (The same way I dont think Rabbonim are promoting it for money…)
Now, Avrah, Hydroxychloroquine is a generic drug, nobody is making any money off that, whereas the Billions of dollars have been paid for the vaccines.
Charlie, we’ve had this argument before, the last we left off, I asked you a couple questions, you then disappeared from YWNCR for a couple weeks. I’ll copy paste my post #1910906 in thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/really-disappointing-clinical-trial-results
“Charlie it would be interesting to see you try and actually put forth a logical argument instead of touting your credentials. You try to discredit my arguments by stating I have no clinical experience(100% true). Your credentials are irrelevant; you can be fauci himself. It’s irrelevant because for one: all that I’ve said has been stated by medical experts, at least some(if not all) of whom have significantly more knowledge and experience with hydroxychloroquine. Secondly: you fail to present any counterargument whatsoever. You seem very confident that hydroxychloroquine has been debunked. I want to understand how an expert with his name on 180 scientific publications came to this conclusion. Id also assume you believe hydroxychloroquine is dangerous. If so please explain what led to that conclusion. Because all due respect, I have a feeling that the reason you refrain from actually debating is because you understand that the only thing you have is credentials; not facts. Just tell me if I’m wrong on that.
-explain to me how studies that used extremely high doses can used as proof hydroxychloroquine is dangerous when given in low dosage
-explain to me how studies performed on hospitalized patients can be used as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when utilized in an outpatient setting
-explain to me how studies that exclude zinc can be as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when given with zinc
These are not my questions. These questions can be attributed to many hundreds of doctors around the country. But you are the expert. Surely you can answer these questions with ease. I’ll wait patiently.”February 24, 2021 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1951964
@akuperma In the USA alone between 1000 to 2000 people a day are dying from COVID-19. Comparatively, in a normal year there are about 100 deaths from the flu and about 150 from car accidents. COVID-19 is over ten times worse than the flu and car accidents combined. All the treatments in the world (Remedisvir, HCQ+Zinc, Vitamin D) have only had a negligible effect on that number. And that doesn’t even factor in all the serious, potentially permanent, health problems people suffered from after getting the virus.
So please don’t pretend that COVID-19 is some political game or something to scoff at. Did you not loose enough friends and family? Would you change your tune if Hashem took more people you knew to the Oilam Ha’Emes?February 24, 2021 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1951981
@torahvaluesoverparty You keep coming back to the same song and dance. You don’t trust expert opinion or the scientific process. So in your own mind HCQ+Zinc works and literally nothing can refute that because we are playing by rules of logic that you invented.
Let’s take one response that I keep pushing and am still waiting on you to comment. The Henry Ford Health System in Detroit promoted the use of HCQ+Zinc to treat COVID-19. They gave it to pre-symptomatic patients and patients who were already experiencing symptoms. They published papers on the results and collaborated on other HCQ studies. The results show that 5% less people were hospitalized when they took HCQ+Zinc. That’s good, but hardly fantastic. Promoting HCQ+Zinc as a vaccine alternative is incredibly dangerous.February 24, 2021 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1952001🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“about 150 from car accidents.”
This didn’t sound right so i googled it.
Thete are not 150 car crash deaths per year in the US. The correct number is 38,000February 24, 2021 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1951996GadolhadorahParticipant
Tristate: For every news story (credited to source) they post on the news site related to recent developments in Covid vaccines, testing or treatment, there are probably 3 or 4 what I call heartbreaking about some rav or askan or poishete yid who died from covid. Do you think they are are getting “commissions” from the funeral homes, makers of the arons and even the chevrah kadishas???? I find your question totally offensive.February 24, 2021 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1952010
@syag-lchochma I don’t think my sentence was clear (grammar was a long time ago, me no speak English good no more). I meant about 150 fatalities in accidents per day compared to one to two thousand fatalities due to COVID per day.February 24, 2021 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1952030
Yserbius, in saying, “you don’t trust expert opinion or the scientific process”, you are completely gaslighting the issue, as there are hundreds, if not thousands, (if not tens of thousands) of doctors around the world that would agree with my view on HCQ. And I did respond, in the thread “https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/new-vid-w-zelenko”, post#1946074, I’ll copy paste-Still don’t know where you get the 5% number. On the henry ford study-“In a large-scale retrospective analysis of 2,541 patients hospitalized between March 10 and May 2, 2020 across the system’s six hospitals, the study found 13% of those treated with hydroxychloroquine alone died compared to 26.4% not treated with hydroxychloroquine. None of the patients had documented serious heart abnormalities; however, patients were monitored for a heart condition routinely pointed to as a reason to avoid the drug as a treatment for COVID-19.” yserbius, that’s not 5% less, that about 50% less. So yes, I responded to you, but none of my questions have been answered. I’ll wait very patiently.February 24, 2021 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1952078
@torahvaluesoverparty Let’s get one thing out of the way first.
HCQ+Zinc is not an alternative to vaccines. Even by the most optimistic reports, it’s far less effective and more prone to side effects than the vaccines. Despite what you may hear on WhatsApp, it’s not some miracle drug that evil politicians are trying to hide so that we’ll all die.
You have to read the entire article. The pertinent passage is this one:
“The study also found those treated with azithromycin alone or a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin also fared slightly better than those not treated with the drugs, according to the Henry Ford data. The analysis found 22.4% of those treated only with azithromycin died, and 20.1% treated with a combination of azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine died, compared to 26.4% of patients dying who were not treated with either medication. ”
There’s a difference of 6.5% in deaths for patients treated with HCQ+Zinc or nothing at all. That directly contradicts your original statements that HCQ+Zinc is the effective medication. The Henry Ford Health System concluded that only HCQ alone in hospitalized patients is effective. Which is a questionable result since even by your own admission multiple other studies have shown that HCQ alone for symptomatic patients is only minimally effective.February 24, 2021 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1952092
Yserbius, are you even bothering to read what you are copy-pasting?? The 6.5% difference is between those treated with HCQ+AZ and those treated with nothing. (according to your post) No zinc here. Oh, and btw, Im pretty sure your math is off, from 26.4%, down to 20.1% would be a 23.9% reduction in death. And writing your statement in bold letters doesnt give it any more merit. Now, I never said HCQ is an alternative to the vaccine. Now that we have the vaccine, I think everyone that is at a somewhat risk, should take it. The vaccine is approx 95% effective. The doctors that have used HCQ in the way, and in the setting they said would be effective, have seen around 80-90% less death in the patients they treated compared to the rest of the population. But this is really irrelevant, what is really concerning me, is the unanswered questions i posted above. I may not have a PHD slapped next to my name, but I do have 2 brain cells to rub together.February 25, 2021 2:11 am at 2:11 am #1952102Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
I did not go to all these interesting references, but I want to confirm the math part:
26.4%, down to 20.1% would be a 23.9%.
One question is what is uncertainty of the estimates.
You would also need to accept that there might not be a simple answer here: there are multiple variations to be tested: doses, early/late interventions, combinations, and it will take time to go through all of them at high confidence.
The question is how to act under uncertainty. The answer is to balance risk and reward.
I saw some articles that advocates several cocktails with multiple specific components, including hCQ, zinc, etc as long as they are relatively safe. Trying to uses and evaluate a cocktail together, instead of separate elements.February 25, 2021 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1952144YtParticipant
Not sure if this is a serious question or notFebruary 25, 2021 7:56 am at 7:56 am #1952192
In the United States, approximate 1% (that’s roughly three million) people die every year. And the US death rate is lower than most economically advanced countries (not so much a function of health care as of higher fertility, since death rate is largely a function of age – that’s why Israel has a lower death rate than almost any advanced country).
Covid19 is little more than a “blip”. The US death rate, with Covid19 is still lower that many if not most countries before Covid19. And since overwhelmingly the fatalities are of people retired from work (press reporting of sensational exceptions not withstanding), there should not have been severe economic disruption except for serious government incompetence (blame Trump and Cuomo and all their colleagues – except for programs affecting senior citizens nothing should have been closed down and people should have been told not to panic).
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