Doing Chesed With Mentchlichkeit

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  • #601189
    mytake
    Member

    I recently had a pretty disappointing experience with an otherwise wonderful chesed organization, and I’d like to respectfully point it out,especially to those of you who do similar volunteer work.

    I got a ride home from a hospital (about an hour long drive) through this chesed organization. I was told that the volunteer would pick me up from the hospital at a certain time. They called me an hour and fifteen minutes after the agreed upon time to say that they’re gonna be there in twenty minutes. There I was, after spending over 24 hours in the hospital, completely depleted of emotional and physical energy,- and I get a ride an hour and half late with no apology!

    When my ride finally arrived, I was greeted by a couple of girls who were apparently on the way back from a simcha or other event and having a wonderful night out. The music was loud (It actually sounded VERY loud, but maybe that’s just me cuz I was so tired…), they were laughing and yelling over the music and having a great time. I thought my head would split. I didn’t want to ask them to quiet things down because it would just feel wierd ruining their fun especially since they were the one’s doing me a favor.

    I just thought I’d share this, because I’m sure these girls are really nice, but they simply weren’t thinking…somebody coming back from a hospital shift is probably pretty exhausted, and if you’re with your friends and having a great time, then maybe it’s not the best time to squeeze in a chesed. And be on time, and call if you’re gonna be late.

    Thanks for listening and thanks for the rides!

    #838447
    real-brisker
    Member

    I feel sorry for any hardships you are going thru. But I think you are wrong on excpecting an apology, or having any complaints. As the famous saying goes “beggers can’t be choosey”

    #838448
    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    Sorry, brisker. You are wrong here. While beggars can’t be choosey, and mytake did admit to sitting uncomfortably because she didn’t want to be offensive to the volunteer, the party that was out of line here is the driver. She was thoughtless and inconsiderate of the recipient – and that is at least half of any chessed project.

    While it might make a lot of sense to add an extra mitzva on your way home from a wedding, a) leave when you say you will b) if you offer a ride to other wedding-goers, remember that the party is over as soon as you pick from a hospital.

    #838449
    mytake
    Member

    “But I think you are wrong on excpecting an apology, or having any complaints. As the famous saying goes “beggers can’t be choosey”

    Is it too much to ask that chesed should be done with a little bit of mentchlichkeit?

    #838450
    Health
    Participant

    mytake -I understand where you are coming from. Some of these orgs. do it only for Kovod/prestige. Others do it L’shem Shomayim.

    I had to do a certain amount of volunteer time as part of my college schooling. I figured great -I’ll volunteer at my local Bikur Cholim. I offered to drive or do other things, but they declined saying they have enough volunteers. But the reason was because I didn’t have any connections, so I was declined. So I went to a different town and volunteered in that Bikur Cholim.

    So unfortunately, not all these orgs. are doing it for the right reason. Some are and some aren’t. Trust me it’s not the girls -it’s the way that org. is run!

    #838451
    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    Health: “Trust me it’s not the girls ” ?????????

    Basic mentchlichkeit, I would hope, is lesson number one in all chessed programs in every high school. I don’t care how or why an orginization is run. The girls themselves should have shown better middos than that. Sorry. They ARE at fault here!

    #838452
    WIY
    Member

    Health

    You need connections to do bikur cholim?! Im getting sick…

    #838453
    mytake
    Member

    Health

    In this case I don’t think it had anything to do with the organization. Nobody has to tell them that common sense says, keep things more or less quiet.

    (BTW-Unfortunately I’ve been on the receiving end of chesed from many organizations for a while now, so I’ve had a chance to see up close what the flyers and auctions booklets and don’t tell you. And you are right that chesed is not always their primary motivation. But as someone who has benifited in different ways from some of these organizations, I don’t feel that it’s my place to criticize them…For those of you who might feel that I am being “too choosy for a beggar”- know that I am talking about basic mentchlichkeit, not being pampered. But those who have been there, know what I mean. I apologize if I sound demanding or critical. If you heard some of my stories you’d wonder how come they get away with it. But like I said, it’s not my place to fix these problems. )

    #838454
    aries2756
    Participant

    This is “MY” take. When you go about doing a “chessed” it is not a matter of your convenience it is a matter of doing the chessed. If you choose to combine it with something else that is your business but if you say you will be available to do a chessed at a certain time then that is when you are on the clock for that chessed. If you are at a wedding and offer to do a chessed on the way home from that wedding, then it is your responsibility to leave that wedding on time no matter what. The other girls are either in it with you or not. Your obligation is first to the job you agreed to do and the girls at the wedding should be made aware of that. If she didn’t understand the obligation or responsibility she took on when agreeing to pick up this person from the hospital then she shouldn’t have volunteered and someone else would have. That is the point. Her “Job” was to leave the wedding on time and make herself available to the person in need on time, be courteous to that person and be understanding to them. If she couldn’t do it, or didn’t understand how its done, then she should have left it up to someone who could.

    Anyone who volunteers to do a “chessed” should understand what they are signing up for. They are NOT doing a favor for someone else who should be grateful to them. They are signing up to do a mitzvah and they should be grateful for the opportunity to do it understanding that if the shoe was on the other foot, Hashem will send them their own shelichim to help them.

    #838455
    WIY
    Member

    Mytake

    Maybe you can do us a favor and bring to our attention and recommend (if its not too personal) which organizations are doing chessed in a proper way and are being mekadeish sheim shomayim.

    #838456
    mytake
    Member

    I have had dealt with many chesed organizations that help cholim including:

    Bein Ish Ubein Achiv

    Chai Lifeline

    Mekimi

    Zichron Shlome

    And several Bikur Cholim’s in the NY area

    They are run by wonderful people and assisted by countless wonderful volunteers. None of them are perfect, though, and some are more focused on providing to the patient and family than others. However, like I said in my previous post, I don’t feel like I have a right to criticize any of them, being that I have (and continue to) benifit from them. For the same reason, I prefer not to single out one in particular. Doing so would feel wrong.

    I am very grateful to all of them, no matter how uncomfortable I may feel about certain issues. I am equally grateful to Hashem that this experience is teaching me the kind of things about true giving that I probably wouldn’t have learned otherwise.

    #838457
    real-brisker
    Member

    AHM, mt – I disagree, These people are voluntering their services (you think they have nothing better to do with their time?). Anything extra is a bonus, if you don’t like the way they are offering it don’t take it. Asking for more is merely being a kofuy tov. I had an experince where I offered a hitchicker a ride, and he first made me drive him 15 minutes out of my way (each direction), then he made me turn off the heat (it was a freezing night) then he made me shut the music I was playing. And then he asked me to say a dvar torah. And finaly when I reached the destantaion where he requested he realized it was the wrong place, and made me take him somewhere else. Now was he right? After all I was doing a chessed, I should do it right!?

    #838458
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    I think a person who has a chessed done for them should be grateful for whatever amount of kindness shown to them, whether or not it meets their expectations.

    At the same time, a person who is doing a chessed should be happy to do everything possible to make the receiving party more comfortable. There is an idea called mitzvah goreres mitzvah, one good deed follows another. If a person does a chessed, there will be more opportunities to do more good deeds. Sometimes, those good deeds are simply dealing with the inconveniences along the way, which may be caused by the receiver of the chessed being a rude or insensitive person (like the receiver of real-brisker’s chessed), and bearing it with a smile.

    #838459
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    r-b,

    Your example doesn’t fit the scenario of the OP. Although I agree that the recipient of a chessed should not take advantage, one who offers a chessed should still do it right.

    I’m with aries on this one.

    #838460
    real-brisker
    Member

    DY – Why not? How is it different?

    #838461
    mytake
    Member

    oK, real-brisker, now you hit a nerve.

    “These people are voluntering their services (you think they have nothing better to do with their time?”

    If you have anything pressing to do at the time, DON’T VOLUNTEER. When you are in a rush while volunteering, you make the recipient of your chesed feel very bad. When you volunteer, to give someone a ride, for example, the recipient has every right to assume that you have the time/or made the time to do them this favor. Making them feel like a pain in the neck isn’t called doing them a favor.

    “Anything extra is a bonus, if you don’t like the way they are offering it don’t take it. Asking for more is merely being a kofuy tov.”

    You offered a ride at 10:00pm, for example, right? So that means I have a right to expect you at 10. I’m not asking for more.

    You are talking about a rude ingrate of a hitchhiker. I am forced to rely on the help of voluenteers of an organization who claim to dedicate themselves to easing the burden of the patient and family. I wish I didn’t need their help. But if YOU CHOOSE to volunteer for them, don’t make things harder. Do it because you WANT to help me.

    #838462
    miritchka
    Member

    I cant understand why someone would blame an organization for the reason mentioned – the fact that the girls were not acting mentchlich. There is a wonderful organization that i know of that ofers rides to people. The way it works is that when someone calls, they take the info and somehow let their drivers know that someone is in need of a ride to ___ and if someone is available, they go pick up the person. In this case, where the OP was waiting at the hospital, yes the org could have called to let him/her knwo that they were running late, but they couldnt have controlled the way the girls behaved. The girls were wrong, but the organization isnt.

    real-brisker: I’m sorry you had to go through that with whomever that person was. But think of the schar you got! You didnt have to take this person! But you did and it was a pain, but you did it! This person was not fair but you get schar for that too!

    It does bother me how there are ‘takers’ that feel the world owes them and that they can demand, complain, and be nasty to the ‘givers’. I hope we are all zoche to be on the giving end!

    #838463
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    r-b,

    The OP asked for nothing more during the ride than was originally offered.

    Also, if someone offers a chessed, but doesn’t follow through properly, they may actually have done a disservice to the recipient. Mytake might have been able to make other arrangements if she wasn’t expecting a ride from this girl, and would not have had to wait around for an hour and a half.

    #838464
    aries2756
    Participant

    Mytake, please stop saying “favor” and lets replace that word with “mitzvah” because thats what it is. Then lets understand the difference between favors and mitzvas. Jews are NOT obligated to do favors, however we are obligated to do mitzvos and chessed AND to do them b’simcha.

    In addition, if we don’t do them with the proper kavonah we don’t get the same s’char.

    One more very important point. If we don’t really want to do this mitzvah or we don’t do it with the right kavanah then we should NOT do it and give that opportunity to someone else.

    RB, had you not picked up that hitchhiker, someone else would have and might have NOT had the bitter feelings you did but would have considered it a “test”. What if this was a specific nisayon Hashem sent to him, maybe he was tested by a specific malach that Hashem sent to test to see if he would get upset or do this chesed b’simcha. Who knows?

    So RB, would you say you passed or failed the test? After 120, how would you answer your maker about this incident, would you tell him that that hitchhiker had such nerve as you are telling us? Or would you say that you are such a baal chessed that even though you were cold, you turned off the heat to accommodate your passenger, and even though you liked music, you turned it off to accommodate your passenger, and even though he gave you the wrong address you still went out of your way, etc. Will you make yourself look good or will you make him look bad? There are always two ways to look at it.

    As far as mytake is concerned, there are organizations set up to help people in this situation and calling upon volunteers who choose to take chessed seriously and volunteer their time to do so, is what is depended on. This young lady who made her feel so uncomfortable had no businesses volunteering if she wasn’t serious. Someone else would have been happy to make the trip and do the job. Not only did she make the recipient feel uncomfortable and needy, she stole the opportunity for doing this mitzvah and this chessed from someone else. Does she really get schar chessed for picking mytake up from the hospital? That is questionable.

    On the other hand if she asked her friend to lend her a car and the car she lent her was dirty and had no gas in it, she would have no reason to complain because that is NOT a chessed that is a favor.

    #838465
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    aries +1 on both posts. This is one of my pet peeves and I couldn’t have said it better.

    #838466
    real-brisker
    Member

    mytake – You are taking it way too far. You are making it as if the org. purposley sent the people an hour and a half late. Chill out, people do cheesd NOT cause they are boerd, rather cause they want to help out people. Now who said that chessed must be served on a golden platter. That is taking chessed to a new level. If you want someone that you can have tainahs on for coming late and being noisy. By all means call a taxi and then you would have a legite complaint.

    #838468
    real-brisker
    Member

    aries – This is not called chessed, ITS CALLED ABUSE.And NO I don’t think I failed cause I had a negative attitude to this person. There is no mitzvah to put up with someones abuse.

    #838469
    ✡onegoal™
    Participant

    Whether or not it is a chessed is irrelevant, if you commit to something you have to do it. In this case the driver committed to pick up mytake at hospital “x” at “x” o’clock, therefor the driver is at fault because she should have been waiting outside at the given time. The driver never committed to pick up mytake without any music or friends, yet anyone who thought for three seconds would have made the normal decision to turn it off or at least ask mytake if s/he minded. The only difference between a chessed ride and a regular ride (carpool, car service) is that you aren’t getting something in return so you have less of a commitment, thus allowing you to call and say that you will be late, as opposed to a car service or carpool where it’s not so nice to call and say you will be late.

    #838470
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Aries,

    Although I agree with you on this, I don’t understand your distinction between a favor and a mitzvah. It’s a mitzvah to lend your friend a car if she needs it, and although not obligatory, it would enhance the mitzvah if the car was clean and fueled. Yet, if you did’nt clean or fuel it, it would be obnoxious of the friend to complain (unlike the case of the late ride, where it was an “avla” on the part of the girl to show up 1 1/2 hours late).

    #838471
    aries2756
    Participant

    DY, you still owe me an apology from another thread I don’t owe you an explanation.

    #838472
    always here
    Participant

    mytake~ I feel your pain. I can’t imagine having spent 24 hrs in the hospital, then waiting over an hour & a half for a late ride, & then ending up in a party vehicle. it was inconsiderate all around on their part. 🙁

    #838473
    real-brisker
    Member

    DY – I answered you, but for some reason the mods didn’t aprove it.

    #838474
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    aries,

    Please remind me for what I need to apologize.

    #838475
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    r-b,

    Try rephrasing it.

    #838476
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I agree with mytake.

    If you don’t offer to do chessed, fine. But once you do offer, and someone acts in reliance on your offer (like by not calling a cab, and instead waiting for you), you owe it to them to do it, and do it right.

    #838477
    winny1
    Participant

    True chesed is in the heart which is the emotions department, not the logic department. You have to keep a smile on your face even when you feel that you have been “ABUSED”, you’re making points upstairs for the mitzvah. The next time you feel it would put you in an uncomfortable position let someone else do it, but when the chessed is being done by you, let the recipient feel that they are cared about because thats really what its all about.

    #838478
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    aries,

    I found that thread. I did explain and apologize.

    In case I wasn’t clear enough, I’m sorry.

    I thought it was fair, though, to point out the inconsistency in your argument. I didn’t intend to insult you personally in the process.

    You never did explain, though, how starting a thread is more likely to be loshon horah than participating in one.

    #838479
    aries2756
    Participant

    DY, seriously, you forgot? It is something you remember quite easily and comes to you at hand. It was on a thread that was closed, I really don’t want to discuss or chat with you because of your lack of respect and courtesy. Maybe someone else or the moderators would care to remind you. You were very proud of yourself at the time; and I told you at the time that you owed me an apology. That is all I have to say to you.

    #838480
    real-brisker
    Member

    aries – You mind answering my post?

    #838481
    real-brisker
    Member

    winny – Being abused is not what chessed is about. You may be a nice guy if you don’t answer vack someone that abuses your services. But I wont call it chessed.

    #838482
    real-brisker
    Member

    DY – I was saying that mytake is having taynahs on someone that is doing her a favor, same thing by the guy I offered a ride to. The only difference is she didn’t express them to the baal chesed, where as the guy I offered a ride to did.

    #838483
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    aries,

    Our posts apparently crossed in the (e)mail. In case you missed it, I apologized again.

    #838484
    aries2756
    Participant

    Accepted and I trust that you won’t go there again.

    RB, what you refuse to realize or what you are in denial about is that the girl was NOT doing her a favor. The girl was supposed to be doing a mitzvah but missed the boat a bit. She didn’t do her any favors making her wait over an hour after being in the hospital all day as it was, and blasting music as well as loud chatter for someone who was over stressed and needed some down time. As I said if it was a problem for her and she thought she was doing a favor she should have left it for someone else to volunteer for and she could have offered to try another night when it was more convenient.

    As for you, if it was a “tircha” for you to accommodate your passenger you shouldn’t have picked him up. Either do it with a full heart of don’t do it at all. You could have said, “maybe this is not such a good idea and I can drop you off at the grocery store where it will be easier for you to hitch another ride” or “actually I am only going till here, you can try and hitch another ride over there” and then drop him off where there was more traffic instead of doing the mitzvah angrily. Someone else might not have felt it was such a tircha and would have done it without complaint.

    #838485
    winny1
    Participant

    RB


    I dont disagree with you . How many times in life do things not work out as we wished when dealing with other people. So wer try not to have to deal with that person again, but that doesnt keep us from still dealing with others.

    #838486
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Real, you brought an extreme case to prove your point. So, how about a different scenario:

    Yankel: Moshe, are you driving to Monsey?

    Moshe: Sure. You want to come along?

    Yankel: I was going to drive, but if you offer, I’ll take you up on it.

    (an hour later)

    Yankel: So when are you going?

    Moshe: Oh! Yeah, in about 20 minutes.

    (another hour)

    Yankel: So when are you going? I’m going to miss the whole thing. I could have gone myself. Just let me know if going. If not, I’m leaving.

    Moshe: Hey, I offered you a ride. Calm down. I told you, I’m leaving soon.

    Moral: Beggars can’t be choosey.

    #838487
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    RB – I am involved in a chessed program at my house. One of the people who came by started getting aggressive so I had to ask her to leave. She sent police over to have me arrested for harrassment. Three times! Talk about abuse.

    #838488
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    r-b,

    The only difference is she didn’t express them to the baal chesed, where as the guy I offered a ride to did.

    First of all, that’s a big difference. People vent here in a way they never would in real life (for better or worse).

    Second of all, mytake wasn’t taking advantage (with that expression’s negative connotation) of the “baalas chessed”. your ride did take advantage of (in your words, abuse) you.

    Third of all, you in no way (according to your post) did anything to inconvenience your passenger. The driver in mytake’s case did.

    #838489
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Real, now I’ll get real. I think we all understand your point of view, but we think that you don’t really get where the OP is coming from. You won’t be able to understand unless you want to.

    Any time a point is brought to light it seems magnified. When you notice a small design on furniture after owning it for three years, someone spent time contemplating exactly how to draw it. There is a ong way from being ungrateful to personally being upset about the eggshell in the pie.

    Another point is that it is a wonderful thing to start aa Chesed organization. But once it is up people aren’t supposed to be made to feel like Shnorers. That would defeat the purpose.

    #838490
    real-brisker
    Member

    aries – Why are you making it sound like the girl did it on purpose? Do you think she purposely came late? do youthink she wanted to make sure mytake had an uncomfortable ride?

    #838491
    real-brisker
    Member

    winny – I don’t get what your saying.

    #838492
    real-brisker
    Member

    Syag – Yes, thats a bot more of an extreme abuse. Now whos going to call that chessed???

    #838493
    real-brisker
    Member

    DY – True, my case is a bit more extreme. But my point still remains.

    #838494
    Health
    Participant

    A Heimishe Mom -“Basic mentchlichkeit, I would hope, is lesson number one in all chessed programs in every high school. I don’t care how or why an orginization is run. The girls themselves should have shown better middos than that. Sorry. They ARE at fault here!”

    mytake -“Health -In this case I don’t think it had anything to do with the organization. Nobody has to tell them that common sense says, keep things more or less quiet.”

    aries2756 -“If you are at a wedding and offer to do a chessed on the way home from that wedding, then it is your responsibility to leave that wedding on time no matter what. The other girls are either in it with you or not. Your obligation is first to the job you agreed to do and the girls at the wedding should be made aware of that. If she didn’t understand the obligation or responsibility she took on when agreeing to pick up this person from the hospital then she shouldn’t have volunteered and someone else would have. That is the point. Her “Job” was to leave the wedding on time and make herself available to the person in need on time, be courteous to that person and be understanding to them. If she couldn’t do it, or didn’t understand how its done, then she should have left it up to someone who could.

    Anyone who volunteers to do a “chessed” should understand what they are signing up for. They are NOT doing a favor for someone else who should be grateful to them. They are signing up to do a mitzvah and they should be grateful for the opportunity to do it understanding that if the shoe was on the other foot, Hashem will send them their own shelichim to help them.”

    I agree with your above posts, but let me explain my post.

    It’s the responsibility of the org. to make sure things run smoothly. If the volunteer is not reliable -they can’t be allowed to volunteer. The org. have to prioritize their funding. If all they have is some girls coming home from a Chasunah to pick up people, then they should pay money for a reliable driver. These orgs. have tons of money for every Naarishkeit they can think of, but they can’t do even the basic Chessed right.

    Again this rant doesn’t apply to all orgs., just a few whom use their power to do whatever they want and tell you if you don’t like it -lump it -We’re Volunteers! These few orgs. don’t know the meaning of Chessed. And trust me Mytake’s incident isn’t the only one; it’s more like most of the time this goes on! It’s time for the Klal to start cleaning house – Orgs. that don’t know what the word L’shem Shomayim means have to go!

    #838495
    aries2756
    Participant

    DY, the apology you gave on that thread was NOT an apology and I told you so at that time. If you are sincerely apologizing for what you did then I accept. What you did was rude and uncalled for aside from being wrong and out of context.

    RB, the girl is the only one in control and accountable for her actions. She took on an obligation and didn’t take it seriously. There is no other way to look at it. It was her obligation to be there on time or to at least call and let mytake know that she was going to be late and what time to expect her. Or even that she can’t follow through. This would have given mytake the option to either continue waiting or find another way home. What the girl did was obligate mytake to wait for her because mytake had no way of knowing when or whether she was going to show up and no way of reaching her on her own.

    Health, the only thing I can say is that the only way an organization can know whether or not it is working properly is if people like mytake give them feedback. If everyone just thanks them and applauds them for their good work and doesn’t get back to them about the problems they have no way of knowing and they have no clue that they have to make corrections.

    RB, one more thing, I just had a very unusual experience in a frum store where I currently am. There was a woman in the store who obviously was a bit off. She was talking loudly and was speaking about how she wants to be married by Chanuka. She was already wearing a sheitel so it seems she must have been married sometime in the past and must have developed these emotional or mental issues somewhere between then and now. At any rate she even asked one man in the store if he were married or if he were available for a date. Everyone heard, he didn’t skip a beat, nor did he get embarrassed, he simply explained that he was married and wished her all the best in her journey to find her bashert. Then she started asking everyone in the store for a ride to where she was staying. The man next to her turned her down but one man int he back of the store spoke up in a loud voice that if she waited a few minutes he will be done and he will take her.

    She then went over to every man in the store and asked if he is taking her and each person politely said no, that man is in the back but she should wait for him at the counter. RB, no one got upset in the store. No one felt abused by her loud voice. No one felt she was abusing them with her questions. It was a rather unusual experience but everyone treated her with dignity.

    RB, did she have a right to annoy and address everyone in the store? She was not the owner in the store, we were NOT her customers. Obviously, she needed help. Obviously she needed our chessed and compassion. Did she have a right to ask for a ride, for a date, if the man was married? Should we as customers feel put upon or upset or even abused by this customer who approached and addressed everyone in the store? After all we didn’t owe her anything. WE didn’t know her, why should we care about her. We had two choices we could either be chessedik to her or we could have just ignored her and tried to avoid her by hiding behind the shelves. She approached me and told me she knew me. I smiled and told her I heard that many times from others, I just happen to have a common look. She asked if I were “X” from “Y” and I said no.

    The man who shouted from the back and offered her a ride really went above and beyond and truly was looking to do a special mitzvah. He knew that she would chew his ear off even for the less than five minute ride in the car and yet he realized that she needed the chessed and he wanted the opportunity to do this mitzvah. He had no idea what he was getting himself into other than doing the chessed. Kol Hakovod to him. Do you think he is telling his friend about the crazy lady he gave a ride to today?

    #838496
    real-brisker
    Member

    HaLeVei – I disagree that if you aren’t going to do the chessed “right” than don’t do it. I think it should be the opposite. If you are excpecting your chessed on a golden platter, than DON’T request it.

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