Dont Sell Chassidus

Uncle Sam:

I sympathize much. You have a valid point – the flair and huge public displays are not the definition of Chassidus. It is sad that we have stooped to a seriously low level with regards to our Avodas Hashem, where the external trappings are misidentified as the עיקר, and the real essence of Chassidus is relatively ignored. For those of us that were raised on ספורי צדיקים, many of the stories centered around the poverty of the Rebbes, their obsession with giving away every last dime to tzedokoh, the true kedusha of the simple and unlearned Yid, and the uncompromising humility of the tzaddikim. Today, these stories are shelved with the fiction books. We have replaced them with contests of chasunah size, photos circulated in the media and cyberspace, and various public displays of wealth and grandeur.

And the Litvishe Yeshivishe world is not far behind. The weddings of Roshei Yeshivos’ children and grandchildren are as pressworthy as the Chassidishe. It is as if the publicity/marketing actually matters. You are correct, but just edit the title of this thread “Chassidus” to include the rest of the frum world.

What has actually occurred, בעוונותינו הרבים, is that our leaders have achieved a new status that is one of the ideals of the current era. CELEBRITY. Every Rosh Yeshiva, Rov, Rebbe, has that potential. And many unfortunately reckon with it. In the handicapped generation we are in, followers (chassidim or talmidim) are easily attracted to this. If this only happened in the performing arts, that’s one thing. But when our leaders become performers and are followed by the equivalent of paparazzi, we’re in trouble.

It’s not that the large weddings are problematic. But when chassidus is defined by this, we are in a desperate situation. I join you in hoping that our leaders can redirect us to true Avodas Hashem.

nobody belives when the Rebbe is dancing for an half an hour back and foreward with a gartel or without

I believe it

Non Jews are going to Clubs Bars Dancing shikar….. YIDDEN ARE GOING TO REBBES

מי כעמך ישראל

Were the Baal Shem Tov and his followers to come back today the first they were rebel and push opposition to would be present day Chassidish Brand Courts

Ha, DY says it like it is.

Bobov was a Rebbe’s child. Belz was a child of a rebbe’s only son and obvious heir.

TLIK: I am maskim that the roshei yeshiva get a bigger bash than we do. But when rebbe chasunas host twenty thousand who come and make a week’s trip out of it, and rosh yeshiva chasunas get two thousand people who come for a half hour after night seder, I don’t get the comparison.

The Szombathelyi Rov , Rav Katz, z”l on Tehillim 12;2 כי גמר חסיד, כי פסו אמונים מבני אדם people stop believing because they see themselves that they have arrived and complete when people see them as
chasidim.

Ubiquitin is right that many Chassidic courts have always acted as royal courts. It’s personally not my cup of tea, but this is their mehalech in avodas Hashem. Rabbeinu Hakadosh wasn’t neheneh personally from his wealth, but his wealth was very much on public display.

TLIK is writing revisionist history about Chassidim. Yes, there were Rebbes who lived austere lives, but there were the other type as well.

DY:

I revised nothing. You are correct, that austerity was not the hallmark of every chassidus. But the use of the pomp when there were suffering souls who were in desperate need was not a trait found, even in Ruzhin that was known for its open display of malchus.

I have no problem accepting that someone wishes to live in grandeur. However, today’s displays are way beyond anything dreamt of, including the ancestors of those rebbes who have these displays. In the olden days, tzedokoh required the actual handing of money to the needy recipient. While that still exists, a hefty portion of today’s tzedokos are done via other means of transmission. This affords easy opportunities to subsidize worthy causes worldwide, not just the local עניים. To have all the extra trappings when there are those dying of hunger is clearly unfair, and probably borders on an issur. What I would state is that a true tzaddik would be pained by the tzuris of others, not neglectful of them while living it up with royal lifestyle.

I have no idea why you think any of these chatzeros are neglectful of aniyim. That’s an absurd and baseless accusation.

Do you really think today’s society is poorer than the society the Rozhiner Rebbes lived in? Punkt farkert. We live in possibly the wealthiest era since brias olam, and if there’s not enough money to support aniyim, it’s not because it’s wasted elsewhere, it’s because it’s not given to tzedaka.

It Is Time for Truth, I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

Reply to UncleSamSW

Wow!!! You opened up a BIG can of huge worms…. Nuf said!

I love knocking chassidim as much as the next guy. But cmon the taaneh has to make sense.

“when there are those dying of hunger is clearly unfair, ”
Who are you talking about? Who is dying of Hunger?

“juxtaposition with pleas for tzedakah by mosdos associated with the same chassidus”
When has belz or bobov come to you with pleas for tzedakah?

Its a straw man argument to say money spent on opulent things should rather go to feed the poor, Nobody really belives that, its just used as an argument against anyone spending money in a way you dont agree with.

that being said, we can see clearly the decline of the doros, Unfortunatly many princes grow up feeling entitled because their father was the king, King Rehoboam is more the rule than the exception

Neville: It is generally the modern crowd that comes up with threads and pathetic arguments like this; not the Litvaks (whose Torah world is very close to and even integrated with the Chasidim.)

@ Joseph
“It is generally the modern crowd that comes up with threads and pathetic arguments like this; not the Litvaks (whose Torah world is very close to and even integrated with the Chasidim”

I get it

1. ONLY the modern crowd EVER makes pathetic arguments
2. litvaks are close to and integrated with chassidus, they are NOT “the modern crowd” and are therefore incapable of making pathetic arguments
3. this is a pathetic argument so it must be made by the modern crowd

The above is truly the holy grail of logic and reasoning

Nebach

@Joseph
I might be a ‘Classic Litvak’
Definitely a Misnagid and follower of the Brisk

I find the whole idea of a Chassidic Court ridiculous, but to each its own. I may not support the system, but can admire and value the learning and institutions of many Chassidic groups.
Our family has financially supported the Laniado Hospital of the Sanzer Chassidim for decades becuase it is the right thing to do, not because we agree with their minhagim.

What I always find amusing about all these Wedding pictures is the lack of food. Thousands of Wedding guests and not a real meal to be seen. A few honored guests at the cloth covered tables get a piece of cake, fruit and a drin. Sorry, This is not what I consider a Seudas Mtizvah. Better to have 50 guests and serve a banquet than a thousand guests and serve next to nothing.

“Having been in close contact “and some of my own pedigree

CTL:

No clue where you hang out or go to weddings. I have been at virtually hundreds of chassidishe weddings, and quite a number of rebbishe ones, too. I do not always come for the seuda, and often come later to give my mazel tov wishes. But there is always a decent meal on the table. Perhaps the huge ones serve on plastic/disposable plates, but these are not ones on sale at the bargain store. The seuda is respectable, though perhaps not the fancy dinner you might get at a high priced restaurant. Food volume tends to be quite decent, and there is generally a flow of people (waiters, etc.) to replenish the drinks and supply cups.

As for the photos, they may represent the hours after the tables have been cleared to facilitate dancing and the mitzvah tantz. All that are usually left seated are the dignitaries and mechutanim. And your observation that there is no food is accurate, as they have concluded the seuda and benching/sheva brochos prior to that. A picture says a thousand words, but not words might be factual. Check the context.

these huge weddings are subsedized by the participants. the chassidim want to prticipate, all of them . thre’s no extrvanganza and if you do see some its paid the rich chassidim who want it…there are plain long table set up almost like a lunch roon…yes there are vip tables….will not go thru all .why dont you go to a few of these weddings asee for your self

UncleSamSW,

“Who asked the Chosson or kallah in Belz or Bobov or any other chassidus when they making chassuna if they like to have such a big Wedding”

I’m assuming that the kallah knew that she was marrying the grandson of the Rebbe, so she probably had an idea that she was stepping into a big wedding. And I’m also guessing that the chosson and kallah had some say in the wedding plans. I don’t think they were blindfolded, brought into the tent, and then everyone yelled, “SURPRISE!!”

Out of curiosity – aside from the large number of people attending (stadium seating) and the ornate tent (probably used/adapted from other functions), what exactly are the elements of these weddings that are getting you so worked up?

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dont-sell-chassidus#post-1528793

Neville what do you classify yourself as?

@ NCB
“Non-Political: It’s not circular logic It’s years of being on the CR, and talking to people outside and observing how consistantly petty the MO is when talking about those more frum than them. It’s to the point of being boringly predictable.

I certainly can’t claim the coveted credential of years being on the coffee room. I can say that having likewise gone outside and even occasionally talked to people my experience differs from yours.

In this very post CT Lawyer wrote that he “may be a classic Litvak” only to be told that his world view would give classic Litvaks indigestion. Where does that rate on the pettiness scale?

Also, I wasn’t really trying to say that the logic was circular. There was no logic of any sort, It was just a blanket attack on a whole segment of Klal Yisroel. And given what some people seem to regard as MO (per attack on CT Lawyer above) it may be a pretty large segment.

@Nonpolitical
Thanks for your observation.

It is not often that I am accused of being ‘Modern’
Too often the segment of the male Frum world that sits and learns and lets/expects wives, parents and in-laws to support them and their institutions undervalue the contributions of baal baatim.
I don’t consider having both a Yeshiva education and advanced secular degrees and a profession to be modern.
I need only point out Jewish figures such as the Rambam who was a physician, the Late Lubavitcher Rebbe who attended the Sorbonne, The late Rav J.B. Soloveitchick with his European University degrees.

My family has been in the USA since for 150 years. It has sent its children to yeshivas, day schools, seminary then university and professional school. AND STAYED FRUM.
We are not Johhny Come Lately Americans who arrived after 1945 or 1956 who existed on our benevolence while they made a new life, enjoying the freedoms my ancestors fought for. Yes, my Grandfather served in the US Army in World War ONE, My father and uncles served in WWII, one uncle in the forces that liberated 3 concentration camps.
My family fought housing discrimination and pushed for Civil Rights legislation. Many here are too young to remember when discrimination was legal in the USA. A hotel could turn away Jews, as could sellers of houses. It was the liberal wing of the Democratic Party that brought about the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Because I want all Americans to have certain freedoms, doesn’t mean I avail myself of every right.

The judges before which I appear would laugh at a label of ‘Modern’ being applied to me, as would my wife, children and grandchidlren and neighboring townspeople.

Politics was never the main point. The fact that CTL thinks J.B. Soloveitchik was most qualified to posken for a “Litvak who follows in the ways of Brisk” is more demonstrative of IITFT’s point than politics.

I think what CTL is saying is that the way he is, is how most Litvaks were in America when he was a child. I’ve seen others in that age group (over 60 years young) who make similar claims. They may look and sound like they fit into the MO today, but apparently decades back, it wasn’t so black and white. I’m not old enough to try and take sides on this; I’m just pointing out to IITFT that–I think–CTL means he’s holding like the mainstream litvaks of ~45 years ago when he says “classic,” not the more right-wing Litvaks of today.