Dont Sell Chassidus

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  • #1528611

    UncleSamSW
    Participant

    Hi
    I want to write something that is bothering me and gives me to think and i want to hear from other people what they think about this.
    This and last Week there was a few major Chassidic Weddings 2 in Bobov Boro Park and 1 in Belz in Yerusalem.
    I saw the pictures on the Web from both. Very big a lot of people.
    When i saw these Pictures i started to thought about one thing.
    Again and again so Big Weddings. I dont see the purpuse of these Big Weddings by each Grandchild from these Rebbes. Its not a Son or Daughter its only a Grandchild and there will be a lot more Grandchildren in the Future to come who will get married .
    In particular these events are coming with a Vorpiiel, Traveling to Europe mekomos hakdoshim and other seudas till the Chassunah. And lets not talk about 7 Broches first, last, shabbes.
    Lets talk straight. the younger Generation, especially in NY and Yerusalem dont belive to much in Rebbes. There is a big World outside that you can take Inside with your Smartphone PC and other things. Also people have so big problems today Parnassa Children Shalom Bayis and so on. When i am talking to chassidishe yungerlait regular working people they say more or less the same thing. “nobody belives when the Rebbe is dancing for an half an hour back and foreward with a gartel or without”.
    I think the Rebbes try to stay in the old World which people actually belived in these things because there was no Internet no PC no Traveling most people didnt have books to read.
    My personal opinion is: these Rebbes Chassunas and Simchas are ONLY FOR ENTERTAINMENT
    Non Jews are going to Clubs Bars Dancing shikar….. YIDDEN ARE GOING TO REBBES. NO PROBLEM
    Than one thing: DONT SELL IT AS CHASSIDUS.
    About how the rebbes today live a lifestyle is another talk. When his followers dont have enough income WIFE NEEDS TO WORK and live in an 2 Bedroom Apt. with 8 Children.

    I would be happy if there will be respond.

    Thanks

    #1528739

    The little I know
    Participant

    Uncle Sam:

    I sympathize much. You have a valid point – the flair and huge public displays are not the definition of Chassidus. It is sad that we have stooped to a seriously low level with regards to our Avodas Hashem, where the external trappings are misidentified as the עיקר, and the real essence of Chassidus is relatively ignored. For those of us that were raised on ספורי צדיקים, many of the stories centered around the poverty of the Rebbes, their obsession with giving away every last dime to tzedokoh, the true kedusha of the simple and unlearned Yid, and the uncompromising humility of the tzaddikim. Today, these stories are shelved with the fiction books. We have replaced them with contests of chasunah size, photos circulated in the media and cyberspace, and various public displays of wealth and grandeur.

    And the Litvishe Yeshivishe world is not far behind. The weddings of Roshei Yeshivos’ children and grandchildren are as pressworthy as the Chassidishe. It is as if the publicity/marketing actually matters. You are correct, but just edit the title of this thread “Chassidus” to include the rest of the frum world.

    What has actually occurred, בעוונותינו הרבים, is that our leaders have achieved a new status that is one of the ideals of the current era. CELEBRITY. Every Rosh Yeshiva, Rov, Rebbe, has that potential. And many unfortunately reckon with it. In the handicapped generation we are in, followers (chassidim or talmidim) are easily attracted to this. If this only happened in the performing arts, that’s one thing. But when our leaders become performers and are followed by the equivalent of paparazzi, we’re in trouble.

    It’s not that the large weddings are problematic. But when chassidus is defined by this, we are in a desperate situation. I join you in hoping that our leaders can redirect us to true Avodas Hashem.

    #1528759

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    UncleSamSW,

    “its only a Grandchild and there will be a lot more Grandchildren in the Future to come who will get married”

    Thank G-d, my children are like lights in my parents’ eyes. And please G-d may I have grandchildren and the ability to treasure each and every one of them and the strength to dance at their weddings.

    “nobody belives when the Rebbe is dancing for an half an hour back and foreward with a gartel or without”

    I can’t even figure out what this means.

    “My personal opinion is: these Rebbes Chassunas and Simchas are ONLY FOR ENTERTAINMENT”

    I think your “ONLY” is insulting, but you’re absolutely right that much of the wedding pomp is for entertainment. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Torah. It’s a tremendous mitzva to bring simcha to a chosson and kallah. And for a rebbe to include as many of his chassidim as possible in the simcha helps to increase their connection with him, which I believe is a vital part of chassidus.

    Go be cynical on your own cheshbon and leave other people alone.

    #1528776

    Meno
    Participant

    nobody belives when the Rebbe is dancing for an half an hour back and foreward with a gartel or without

    I believe it

    Non Jews are going to Clubs Bars Dancing shikar….. YIDDEN ARE GOING TO REBBES

    מי כעמך ישראל

    #1528780

    UncleSamSW
    Participant

    @Avram in MD

    i understand you.

    You said” its a tremendous mitzva to bring simcha chosson and kallah” YES thats right and very nice.

    What i am now writing is very controversial and not so accepted in our comunity.

    Who asked the Chosson or kallah in Belz or Bobov or any other chassidus when they making chassuna if they like to have such a big Wedding when they stand on top on the Roof and thousands of people watching them.

    Just a thought. I dont want to hurt nobody. just thinking a little out of the box.

    #1528783

    Were the Baal Shem Tov and his followers to come back today the first they were rebel and push opposition to would be present day Chassidish Brand Courts

    #1528793

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’ve yet to see a legitimate tayna.

    You people are just jealous.

    #1528816

    Toi
    Participant

    Ha, DY says it like it is.

    #1528841

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “What i am now writing is very controversial and not so accepted in our comunity.”

    Its not controversial at all.

    “Who asked the Chosson or kallah in Belz or Bobov or any other chassidus when they making chassuna if they like to have such a big Wedding when they stand on top on the Roof and thousands of people watching them.”

    Gimpel Honigkvetcher is in charge of asking

    “Just a thought. I dont want to hurt nobody. just thinking a little out of the box.”
    I missed the out of the box part. All this has been said before.

    You say “DONT SELL IT AS CHASSIDUS.”
    An aspect of many chassidus is viewing the Rebbe as a “melech ” complete with the pomp and circumstance that surronds this. The pomp surronding a meelch is ver ymuch a part of our mesora. True it is hard for many of us to relate to. But this is very much part pf many chassidus, most notably Rizhin and its descendants but many others (though not all).
    Thus a Rebbe’s family wedding is very much a royal wedding. (To his followers). As you may know a royal wedding is full of pomp and circumstance.
    They arent forcing you to pay, they arent forcing you to come. DY might be on to something

    #1528847

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Bobov was a Rebbe’s child. Belz was a child of a rebbe’s only son and obvious heir.

    TLIK: I am maskim that the roshei yeshiva get a bigger bash than we do. But when rebbe chasunas host twenty thousand who come and make a week’s trip out of it, and rosh yeshiva chasunas get two thousand people who come for a half hour after night seder, I don’t get the comparison.

    #1528857

    The little I know
    Participant

    MW:

    I harbor no jealousy of those whose weddings are bigger and fancier than mine. I am quite satisfied with the norm. The issue at hand is whether this extravaganza is a positive thing for Klal Yisroel or not. I do hear that some should have these large scale simchos. I may not agree, but I do get it. There is a point of extremes when we witness the sheer number of paid advertising on YWN for chassanim and kallahs who are in positions of poverty, destitute, orphaned, etc., who are unable to fund their weddings. So they are sentenced to their tzuris while huge volumes of money are spent on pomp. The disparity here is begging for attention.

    The other point is that Chassidus, from its earliest days, involved a considerable amount of פרישות, where the indulgence in the physical world was greatly minimized and limited, while there were large amounts of generosity to insure that the poor were supported. Today’s picture appears opposite of that.

    Do we notice the photos (particularly of Chassidishe Rebbes) that include large silver objects, fancy tablecloths, signs, etc.? Did the Baal Shem Tov live this way? Did any of his talmidim live like this? No, I am not preaching austerity for all. But the opposite extreme stands out, and is in sharp contrast to the heritage that the Rebbes’ ancestors passed down from their ancestors.

    We have moved from the Klal Yisroel that is invested in Emunah, Bitachon, Taryag Mitzvos, Midos Tovos, to where we prioritize our hero worship. That does not have the precedent for Klal Yisroel that shines a candle to Matan Torah. It may be worth a glimpse, but cannot be allowed to become an עיקר for us. That’s a dangerous road.

    #1529043

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Szombathelyi Rov , Rav Katz, z”l on Tehillim 12;2 כי גמר חסיד, כי פסו אמונים מבני אדם people stop believing because they see themselves that they have arrived and complete when people see them as
    chasidim.

    #1529414

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Young people can be very impressionable and when they see certain fancy things and then see a Tzdekah campaign by the same person they might start to question or worse

    #1529477

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin is right that many Chassidic courts have always acted as royal courts. It’s personally not my cup of tea, but this is their mehalech in avodas Hashem. Rabbeinu Hakadosh wasn’t neheneh personally from his wealth, but his wealth was very much on public display.

    TLIK is writing revisionist history about Chassidim. Yes, there were Rebbes who lived austere lives, but there were the other type as well.

    #1529504

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    It’s revisionist reality as well. The Chassidishe courts of today are known to be generous with tzedakah, including but not limited to those singled out in this thread.

    Some rich people like to have over-the-top weddings. This could be true of goyim, Chassidim, Litvaks, Long Island non-frum yidden, etc. It’s silly to make this out to be a religious thing. Are you going to start criticizing the funerals of Rabbonim next?

    #1529506

    The little I know
    Participant

    DY:

    I revised nothing. You are correct, that austerity was not the hallmark of every chassidus. But the use of the pomp when there were suffering souls who were in desperate need was not a trait found, even in Ruzhin that was known for its open display of malchus.

    I have no problem accepting that someone wishes to live in grandeur. However, today’s displays are way beyond anything dreamt of, including the ancestors of those rebbes who have these displays. In the olden days, tzedokoh required the actual handing of money to the needy recipient. While that still exists, a hefty portion of today’s tzedokos are done via other means of transmission. This affords easy opportunities to subsidize worthy causes worldwide, not just the local עניים. To have all the extra trappings when there are those dying of hunger is clearly unfair, and probably borders on an issur. What I would state is that a true tzaddik would be pained by the tzuris of others, not neglectful of them while living it up with royal lifestyle.

    #1529514

    DY,
    Sorry ,that is the revisionism
    Till Rizhin and the ensuing counter revolution, ALL chasiduss was about hapiness within simplicity and hanging with lower social milieu

    elements of Animal Farm?

    #1529524

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I have no idea why you think any of these chatzeros are neglectful of aniyim. That’s an absurd and baseless accusation.

    Do you really think today’s society is poorer than the society the Rozhiner Rebbes lived in? Punkt farkert. We live in possibly the wealthiest era since brias olam, and if there’s not enough money to support aniyim, it’s not because it’s wasted elsewhere, it’s because it’s not given to tzedaka.

    #1529534

    DovidBT
    Participant

    To have all the extra trappings when there are those dying of hunger is clearly unfair, and probably borders on an issur.

    I asked a rabbi once about the justification for spending money on extravagances. His response was that it’s ok, provided that you acknowledge that it all comes from Hashem.

    #1529537

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It Is Time for Truth, I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

    #1529542

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The issue for many is one of the optics of seeing these massive celebrations with their perceived astronomical costs in juxtaposition with pleas for tzedakah by mosdos associated with the same chassidus. The same shekels that pay for the simchas are fungible with funds desperately needed to pay for so many other needs. Some will say the simchas are paid for by wealthy chassidim of the rebbe and absent the Simcha, they wouldn’t give the same funding to the rebbe’s mosdos.

    #1529558

    Teal
    Participant

    Reply to UncleSamSW

    Wow!!! You opened up a BIG can of huge worms…. Nuf said!

    #1529568

    Joseph
    Participant

    Where are the complaints against the guys who have big opulent houses that everyone passing by the street sees? Or the guys with fancy cars that people see everyday? Only the weddings bother you?

    #1529574

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I love knocking chassidim as much as the next guy. But cmon the taaneh has to make sense.

    “when there are those dying of hunger is clearly unfair, ”
    Who are you talking about? Who is dying of Hunger?

    “juxtaposition with pleas for tzedakah by mosdos associated with the same chassidus”
    When has belz or bobov come to you with pleas for tzedakah?

    #1529582

    Non Political
    Participant

    I will just point out that given the descriptions we have of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s wealth and lifestyle you would say the same about him. Forget grandchildren, his stable hand was richer then Shivur Malka (the king of Bavel in the time of Rav and Shmuel).

    #1529607

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its a straw man argument to say money spent on opulent things should rather go to feed the poor, Nobody really belives that, its just used as an argument against anyone spending money in a way you dont agree with.

    that being said, we can see clearly the decline of the doros, Unfortunatly many princes grow up feeling entitled because their father was the king, King Rehoboam is more the rule than the exception

    #1529614

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    If a chassidishe court is dishing out millions/tens of millions annually to the sick, the poor, etc, what difference does it make if the Rebbe saves $500 on his coat? Or even $5000 on his son’s wedding? That’s a drop in the bucket compared to what they’re giving. If someone gives like they’re supposed to, obviously they should be allowed to enjoy the rest of the fruits of their labor.

    I’m not even sure what to say to some of these comments. This thread is making the entire Litvishe velt look like a petty, jealous joke (which we are not).

    #1529617

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville: It is generally the modern crowd that comes up with threads and pathetic arguments like this; not the Litvaks (whose Torah world is very close to and even integrated with the Chasidim.)

    #1529625

    Joseph,
    Ask Any classic Litvak
    [Admittedly, there aren’t that many left.]

    They’d smirk at chassidish Torah
    though they’ll do it gently.
    And that might be because they recognize that chassidus has probably done a better job at keeping the hoi polloi within the broad religious umbrella .And that is of import.
    Putting that aside,they hardly render it still in any way normative or authentic,though they’ll generally refrain from expressing it

    #1529782

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Joseph
    “It is generally the modern crowd that comes up with threads and pathetic arguments like this; not the Litvaks (whose Torah world is very close to and even integrated with the Chasidim”

    I get it

    1. ONLY the modern crowd EVER makes pathetic arguments
    2. litvaks are close to and integrated with chassidus, they are NOT “the modern crowd” and are therefore incapable of making pathetic arguments
    3. this is a pathetic argument so it must be made by the modern crowd

    The above is truly the holy grail of logic and reasoning

    Nebach

    #1529781

    Non Political
    Participant

    @NCB
    ” This thread is making the entire Litvishe velt look like a petty, jealous joke”

    Why are you assuming that the attacks are coming from people associated with the Litvishe velt and not disgruntled chassidim?

    #1529710

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph
    I might be a ‘Classic Litvak’
    Definitely a Misnagid and follower of the Brisk

    I find the whole idea of a Chassidic Court ridiculous, but to each its own. I may not support the system, but can admire and value the learning and institutions of many Chassidic groups.
    Our family has financially supported the Laniado Hospital of the Sanzer Chassidim for decades becuase it is the right thing to do, not because we agree with their minhagim.

    What I always find amusing about all these Wedding pictures is the lack of food. Thousands of Wedding guests and not a real meal to be seen. A few honored guests at the cloth covered tables get a piece of cake, fruit and a drin. Sorry, This is not what I consider a Seudas Mtizvah. Better to have 50 guests and serve a banquet than a thousand guests and serve next to nothing.

    #1529948

    CTLAWYER,
    “I might be a ‘Classic”=borders on the absurd?
    Having been in close contact with and studied under many a Litvak,
    your weltenshauung and politics would have given them serious indigestion

    Perhaps you are unfamiliar with classical Litvaks and the like?

    #1529950

    “Having been in close contact “and some of my own pedigree

    #1529955

    a mamin
    Participant

    THIS IS SO SAD!! Why cant any of you fargin???? These weddings are not boasting anything, except how many followers they have. Where are the flowers , party planners expensive musicians?etc? Do any of you criticize anyone who spends over $100,000 on a wedding? Its really none of your business! Is the amount of tzedaka given from any of these dynasties questioned by any of you? Obviously not! I never saw a thread of anyone saying look how much tzedaka they’re giving?? In any case that is irrelevant. These questions are not coming from a good place. JUST PURE JEALOUSY! I don’t follow any of those Rabbonim but i definitely respect them and if they have thousands of followers , good for them! At least they are busy with Their Rebbe and not running to Cankun , Bahamas or casinos!

    #1529951

    The little I know
    Participant

    CTL:

    No clue where you hang out or go to weddings. I have been at virtually hundreds of chassidishe weddings, and quite a number of rebbishe ones, too. I do not always come for the seuda, and often come later to give my mazel tov wishes. But there is always a decent meal on the table. Perhaps the huge ones serve on plastic/disposable plates, but these are not ones on sale at the bargain store. The seuda is respectable, though perhaps not the fancy dinner you might get at a high priced restaurant. Food volume tends to be quite decent, and there is generally a flow of people (waiters, etc.) to replenish the drinks and supply cups.

    As for the photos, they may represent the hours after the tables have been cleared to facilitate dancing and the mitzvah tantz. All that are usually left seated are the dignitaries and mechutanim. And your observation that there is no food is accurate, as they have concluded the seuda and benching/sheva brochos prior to that. A picture says a thousand words, but not words might be factual. Check the context.

    #1530059

    shimen
    Participant

    sam
    ‘dont sell it as chassidus’…who is doing the selling?? did any rebbe get up on podium and say its chssidus?

    #1530058

    shimen
    Participant

    these huge weddings are subsedized by the participants. the chassidim want to prticipate, all of them . thre’s no extrvanganza and if you do see some its paid the rich chassidim who want it…there are plain long table set up almost like a lunch roon…yes there are vip tables….will not go thru all .why dont you go to a few of these weddings asee for your self

    #1530065

    a m,
    ” SAD!!Why cant any of you fargin???”

    IT’s wrong to challenge priorities??

    #1530270

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    UncleSamSW,

    “Who asked the Chosson or kallah in Belz or Bobov or any other chassidus when they making chassuna if they like to have such a big Wedding”

    I’m assuming that the kallah knew that she was marrying the grandson of the Rebbe, so she probably had an idea that she was stepping into a big wedding. And I’m also guessing that the chosson and kallah had some say in the wedding plans. I don’t think they were blindfolded, brought into the tent, and then everyone yelled, “SURPRISE!!”

    #1530375

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know and UncleSamSW,

    Out of curiosity – aside from the large number of people attending (stadium seating) and the ornate tent (probably used/adapted from other functions), what exactly are the elements of these weddings that are getting you so worked up? CTLAWYER notes the absence of food, TLIK says there is food but it’s not fancy, and Neville ChaimBerlin notes the absence of gaudy displays.

    #1530382

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Out of curiosity – aside from the large number of people attending (stadium seating) and the ornate tent (probably used/adapted from other functions), what exactly are the elements of these weddings that are getting you so worked up?

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dont-sell-chassidus#post-1528793

    #1530883

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Joseph, of course the OP views are coming from a MO person, but it doesn’t change what this thread might cause people to think.

    Non-Political: It’s not circular logic. It’s years of being on the CR, and talking to people outside and observing how consistantly petty the MO is when talking about those more frum than them. It’s to the point of being boringly predictable.

    #1530885

    icemelter
    Participant

    Neville what do you classify yourself as?

    #1530890

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @ThelittleIknow
    This mid 60s aged attorney doesn’t hang out. He lives in small town Fairfield County, Connecticut and can be often found in his law office, Superior or Probate Court and his local orthodox synagogue.

    That said, I have attended hundreds of weddings over the past 50 years, but never one in a Chassidic court. That is why I made the comment/observation about what I see or don’t see in the picture posted in YWN.

    I also have never attended a wedding/chasunah where I was not invited for the entire affair: Tisch, chuppah, seudah…….I have never been invited for part of the festivities.
    I would not dream of dropping in uninvited to wish someone a mazal tov.
    When our eldest daughter married, our future SIL asked if he could invite some Yeshiva friends to the schmorg and chuppah or for dessert/shevah brochos, as he didn’t expect us to host these boys for the entire evening. He was told that we don’t invite or host people in separate classes. If he wanted them, then invite them for everything (Mrs. CTL and I would pay, that’s what the girl’s parents do).

    Also, growing up and living OOT, one does not have the opportunity to just drop in to a local wedding hall and wish a mazal tov as may occur in Brooklyn, Monsey or Lakewood. In fact all three of our daughters were married right here on our grounds. I doubt an uninvited guest would have gained entry.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    As for your comments about my being an “classic” Litvak…it is only on my paternal side which arrived here in 1872. My mother’s side is Yekke and they arrived in 1868. Oma always thought my mother married down to a ‘peasant from the east.
    I attended yeshiva at a Litvish establishment in NYC many decades ago. Our family followed in the ways of Brisk. I do not consider my politics to negate my observance or beliefs. Just because I want something for the general populace does not mean I shall avail myself of it. My religious prescriptions and restrictions are taken up by choice and should not be foisted upon the general American public (beyond the Noachide Laws). Before I got involved in local politics 45 years ago I discussed this fully with the Rav J.B. Soloveitchik. He was best suited to deal with a Litvak living as a traditionally observant Jew in New England. I received great guidance and advice which I’ve followed all these years.

    #1530896

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ NCB
    “Non-Political: It’s not circular logic It’s years of being on the CR, and talking to people outside and observing how consistantly petty the MO is when talking about those more frum than them. It’s to the point of being boringly predictable.

    I certainly can’t claim the coveted credential of years being on the coffee room. I can say that having likewise gone outside and even occasionally talked to people my experience differs from yours.

    In this very post CT Lawyer wrote that he “may be a classic Litvak” only to be told that his world view would give classic Litvaks indigestion. Where does that rate on the pettiness scale?

    Also, I wasn’t really trying to say that the logic was circular. There was no logic of any sort, It was just a blanket attack on a whole segment of Klal Yisroel. And given what some people seem to regard as MO (per attack on CT Lawyer above) it may be a pretty large segment.

    #1530936

    “only to be told that his world view would give classic Litvaks indigestion. Where does that rate on the pettiness scale?”
    How is that petty?maybe the vocabulary perhaps ,but the thrust?

    #1530941

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Nonpolitical
    Thanks for your observation.

    It is not often that I am accused of being ‘Modern’
    Too often the segment of the male Frum world that sits and learns and lets/expects wives, parents and in-laws to support them and their institutions undervalue the contributions of baal baatim.
    I don’t consider having both a Yeshiva education and advanced secular degrees and a profession to be modern.
    I need only point out Jewish figures such as the Rambam who was a physician, the Late Lubavitcher Rebbe who attended the Sorbonne, The late Rav J.B. Soloveitchick with his European University degrees.

    My family has been in the USA since for 150 years. It has sent its children to yeshivas, day schools, seminary then university and professional school. AND STAYED FRUM.
    We are not Johhny Come Lately Americans who arrived after 1945 or 1956 who existed on our benevolence while they made a new life, enjoying the freedoms my ancestors fought for. Yes, my Grandfather served in the US Army in World War ONE, My father and uncles served in WWII, one uncle in the forces that liberated 3 concentration camps.
    My family fought housing discrimination and pushed for Civil Rights legislation. Many here are too young to remember when discrimination was legal in the USA. A hotel could turn away Jews, as could sellers of houses. It was the liberal wing of the Democratic Party that brought about the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Because I want all Americans to have certain freedoms, doesn’t mean I avail myself of every right.

    The judges before which I appear would laugh at a label of ‘Modern’ being applied to me, as would my wife, children and grandchidlren and neighboring townspeople.

    #1530943

    CTL,
    Our backgrounds are remarkably similar 🙂
    More to the point:
    Rav J.B. Soloveitchik. was a sociopolitical conservative who voted Eisenhower ,Nixon, [Goldwater?]

    Furthermore,
    Name one classic Litvak who had positive views of the Upheavals and ‘liberation’ of the ’60s
    [Shaul Lieberman and those of his persuasion ,whatever they might have held, are naturally irrelevant for this discussion]

    #1530949

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Politics was never the main point. The fact that CTL thinks J.B. Soloveitchik was most qualified to posken for a “Litvak who follows in the ways of Brisk” is more demonstrative of IITFT’s point than politics.

    I think what CTL is saying is that the way he is, is how most Litvaks were in America when he was a child. I’ve seen others in that age group (over 60 years young) who make similar claims. They may look and sound like they fit into the MO today, but apparently decades back, it wasn’t so black and white. I’m not old enough to try and take sides on this; I’m just pointing out to IITFT that–I think–CTL means he’s holding like the mainstream litvaks of ~45 years ago when he says “classic,” not the more right-wing Litvaks of today.

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