Dont Sell Chassidus

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  • #1530955

    Joseph
    Participant

    Orthodoxy in America pre-WWI was horrible. Between WWI and WWII it started improving a bit but was still in der erd. Yes, despite that there were those that were mesira nefesh to stay frum, they were the exceptions by far. Even if your family was one of them. Until WWII real Torah Judaism and religious life was in Europe.

    #1530953

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL, what makes you not MO? Your beliefs and lifestyle falls well within the norm of that community and fits it far better than any other frum community.

    #1531034

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @NevilleChaimBerlin

    You hit the nail on the head. There is nothing ‘Classic’ about the current Litvish community in America that has moved far to the right in the past 35-40 years.
    40-50 years ago I was considered to the right of MO. MO synagogues commonly held mixed dances in those days.

    Here’s an analogy……………..

    Mrs. CTL has her orignal 1971 Jaguar XKE, that’s a classic. One of our daughters has a 2017 Jaguar F Type. That’s current version/sucessor, but not a classic

    #1531064

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Here’s an analogy……………..

    Mrs. CTL has her orignal 1971 Jaguar XKE, that’s a classic. One of our daughters has a 2017 Jaguar F Type. That’s current version/sucessor, but not a classic

    When giving an analogy, it’s always best to use one’s expensive material possessions. 😀

    #1531065

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have also been called a Mayflower jew as My family has also been in the US since before World War I

    #1531078

    Joseph ,
    That is unjustified and Going too far.CTL has the right to cliam his family is pre_MO and prior to later later delineations

    CTL,
    an unfortunate of families like yours is after striving and treading water for long they fall into an inertia

    [Rabbi Leo Jung’s negation of postwar gedolim as luftmenshen may well be a rabbinic example of that]

    However it is fair if this goes in hand in hand with the understandable feeling of the lack of hakarat hatov/gratitude from multitudes who came afterward for the blood ,sweat, and tears for those who laid the groundwork

    #1531082

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Joseph: His point is that he’s Ashkenaz, Orthodox, and learned in Yeshiva; it sounds like back then that was called Litvish. The fact that the current use of the terms excludes all those who aren’t Chareidi is why he put the word “classic” in front of it.

    I would be reluctant to start identifying as MO if I were him also. If he’s been one way his whole life, and for his entire upbringing they called that Litvish, it would be frustrating to have to change your identity when you haven’t changed your character at all.

    #1531086

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    “What has actually occurred, בעוונותינו הרבים, is that our leaders have achieved a new status that is one of the ideals of the current era. CELEBRITY. Every Rosh Yeshiva, Rov, Rebbe, has that potential.”

    True, and at least partly because it’s considered a g’nei to earn a parnasah. So they become celebrity (or quasi-celebrity) rabbis and make money that way. IOW, if I go into business or a profession, then feh, past nisht. But if I try to become the next Paysach Krohn and earn a parnasah that way (with the storytelling, not the brissin), that puts me on a higher level, somehow.

    #1531132

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    RY: Why did you have to put the thread back on topic? The “classic Litvak” debate was much more interesting and cordial than listening to jealous slobs whine about Rabbonim who have more money than them.

    #1531175

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Shternbuch shlita is a classic Litvak.

    #1531174

    Joseph
    Participant

    As far as what a “true Litvak” is, I think we can fairly say that the type of Litvaks seen by the Brisker Rov and his successors and talmidim today as well as the type of Litvishness on display in the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel today, to take two contemporary exemples, is a far closer rendition of the type of Yiddishkeit lived in Lita in places like Vilna, Novardok and Kovna — than the type of Judaism that in this thread is being called “classic Litvish”.

    #1531173

    Joseph
    Participant

    NCB & TfT: I don’t think the nomenclature is all too important. If that’s what a Classic Litvak is, today the terminology/nomenclature has changed in popular usage from CL to become MO. I think CTL today clearly falls into what today is called MO.

    As a second and separate point, I think that a) CTL has a similar background to how many other current MO people “shtam” from and b) what CTL was 50-55 years ago is the natural progression of what is MO today.

    CTL — I say all the above in complete respect. You can comment on its accuracy. 🙂

    #1531171

    “1) Just because I want something for the general populace does not mean I shall avail myself of it.2) My religious prescriptions and restrictions are taken up by choice and should not be foisted upon the general American public 3)beyond the Noachide Laws)”

    The sentiments are a little contradictory [or is it Legalspeak]
    though others have insinuated this might be the wrong Thread for that.

    #1531164

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @zahavasdad

    If your family came through Ellis Island you are greenhorns.
    Our family came through Castle Garden on the Battery.

    Growing up, I remember one of my grandmother’s uncles referring to any loud and confusing gathering as “ah regular Castle Gart”

    #1531160

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @dovidbt
    Sorry my car analogy offended you.
    Would you be happier if I referred to my Machzor Kol Bo as a Classic and the new Art Scroll as a successor but not a classic.

    Mrs. CTL’s car was bought new 47 years ago. The insurance industry labels it a ‘classic’ and the State of CT issues Classic Car license plates which come at a reduced rate. That is why I mentioned it, not because of its current market value. Our daughter’s car is hers, not ours. Earned for and paid for by her labor.

    #1531205

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Time Time For Truth
    “Name one classic Litvak who had positive views of the Upheavals and ‘liberation’ of the ’60s”

    Why? Who expressed a positive view of the upheavals and liberation of the ’60s? Surely you don’t think that stating the HISTORICAL FACTS that: 1) there was widespread discrimination, 2) the Civil Right Act helped = a positive view of 60s era upheavals and liberation.

    “an unfortunate of families like yours is after striving and treading water for long they fall into an inertia”

    This is certainly not the impression I get from reading CTLs posts. What gives you the impression that they are treading water?

    #1531203

    Non Political
    Participant

    So let me see if I follow. Anyone with a secular education is MO. Is that the criteria?

    There was a historic conversation between the Or Semaich and the Chofetz Chaim where the CC traveled to speak to the OS regarding the government edict that Yeshivas would be forced to include Russian in their curriculum. The OS responded “Nu, what’s so terrible if bachurim learn to speak russian?” The meeting ended at an impasse. Was the Or Semaich MO?

    Rabbi Moshe Meiselman and Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb both have PHDs. Are they MO?

    #1531197

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Sorry my car analogy offended you.

    Not offended, merely bemused.

    #1531270

    NP,
    Set a strawman and then going on the attack?
    Choosing to put phrases into people’s mouths??

    “Rabbi Moshe Meiselman and Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb both have PHDs. Are they MO?”
    1000% not
    MO tend to abuse and malign those two especially the former, more than they do to the stereotypical mainstream charedim.Which ought to be more than a bit telling

    if they are anything they’re either anti MO or very Far right wing MO

    #1531333

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Is it time for truth

    I’m not following. First you respond that Rabbi Moshe Meiselman and Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb are “1000% not” MO them you say “if they are anything they’re either anti MO or very Far right wing MO”

    Is that contradiction or just legal speak?

    Also,

    I wasn’t setting up a strawman or putting phrases in peoples mouths. Just trying to figure out why CTL was labeled MO when he identified himself as a classic litvak. Based on his posts

    1) Hw has an advanced secular education (law)
    2) He has a profession (attorney)
    3) He is financially successful
    4) He is politically active
    5) He likes nice cars (Jaguar) and quality furniture (based on a previous post)

    So, let’s turn this into a multiple choice question. Based on the above why would someone be compelled to label him MO?

    take your time…

    The answer is #1.

    No one thinks having money posuls you from classic litvishkeit. Political activism doesn’t either (think Agudah in America and Degel is EY). So cross off 3&4.

    I know that #5 is a tempting contender but it’s the wrong answer. Here is why. To give that answer you would have to compare the vehicle and furniture choices of successful politically active attorneys in his locale amd determine that the possession of such items is not the norm.

    Surely having a job (#2) doesn’t disqualify CTL from being a classic litvak.

    He doesn’t claim to be a famous Rosh Yeshiva who make large weddings for his grandkids so that can’t be the problem.

    That leaves #1, having a secular education. So that’s what I addressed.

    #1531326

    ” today the terminology/nomenclature has changed in popular usage from CL to become MO”
    Not for hashkafa.Perhaps for externals and mannerisms

    #1531372

    Joseph
    Participant

    NP, I explained above the answer to your questions. The application of the term Classic Litvak, as defined here, is a historical revisionism. True Classic Litvaks are Rav Moshe Shternbuch, the Brisker Rov, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chofetz Chaim and more contemporary (in addition to Rav Shternbuch) the talmidim of Brisk and Ponevezh in Eretz Yisroel today. Those are the real classic Litvaks.

    Not the new age definition given above or the strawman answers you proposed. CTL’s hashkofos and worldviews as very often expressed on this forum clearly fall into what is today called MO.

    #1531375

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    An advanced secular education in Law or Medicine doe NOT make one Modern Orthodox. It does make one able to function in the USA, earn a living, support our Jewish institutions and defend them in court.

    How many times do we read here on YWN about attacks via zoning and other laws on our community. People with advanced secular education in Law are needed to fight and win these battles.

    I don’t want prayer in the public schools, you want prayer in school, go to a private religious school and pay for it yourself, not with vouchers. MOs support vouchers to cover the cost of their kids in day schools.

    I want the Civil Rights Laws strengthened, not weakened. I do not trust Trump.
    I want the Equal Rights Amendment to be the law of the land, not just in some state constitutions here in the northeast. I want equal pay for equal work. Why should the wife supporting her husband who is learning earn less than a male in the same position?
    That doesn’t make me MO

    My family is not treading water, for 150 years here in the USA we have swam forward, bettering our lives and those of the frum community. We have stayed frum to the 9th generation. AND we weren’t forced to do that through social pressure in a ghetto in the Heim. We did it by choice and conviction.

    MO men often clean shaven (with an electric), our family’s men have neat beards. Our wives wear wigs, they don’t wear pants.

    I don’t like when Jews label other Jews, it brings no good.
    I have seen the change in American Orthodoxy in the past 5 years and it has led to more division which is not good.

    Today, I’ll be in Boro Park, for the first time in 3 years. I have a family funeral. I’ll not be shopping or dining out. BUT, 100 years since my great-grandfather moved from Manhattan to Boro Park we still have family members there. They are not Chassidim, They go to Yeshiva then college. Medical, Law or Engineering schools. The families are frum, we learn regularly and live our lives.

    #1531390

    “Equal Rights Amendment to be the law of the land,”
    Doubtful if any Classic Litvak of the ’70s supported the ERA.They were strenuously opposed -at least verbally ,more so than even the Litvishe of today

    #1531385

    NP,
    I concede.It is by and large irrelevant as the thrust remains the same. However yes indeed,immediately after typing my impetuous post I noticed the inherent contradiction.

    #1531387

    NP,

    “No one thinks having money posuls you from classic litvishkeit. ”

    The Classic Litvak has/had a disinterest for money, as well an aversion for ostentatious goods
    Of the choices given, the proper answers are #3 & #5

    #1531508

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ It is Time for Truth

    “The Classic Litvak has/had a disinterest for money, as well an aversion for ostentatious goods”

    Having money is not the same as having an interest in money. One does not take an oath of poverty in our religion. Growing up / living in poverty is a nisayon it is not a prerequisite. I know some low income people who are very interested in money. They are always talking about “the waste” when wealthier people have nice cars, clothing, houses, weddings, etc. If they had the resources they would most certainly conduct themselves like the prototypical nouveau riche. They just don’t have the opportunity. One who is blessed with wealth has their nisyonos, some do better then others. This has nothing to do with being a “classic litvak”. Have you taken a ride through the nicer parts of Lakewood lately?

    #1531509

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Joseph

    “NP, I explained above the answer to your questions.”

    Why are you repeating yourself? Your “explanation” was not overlooked or misunderstood. It was rejected.

    “The application of the term Classic Litvak, as defined here, is a historical revisionism.”

    No it isn’t (see CTL’s post on page 1). You are the one doing the revising.

    True Classic Litvaks are Rav Moshe Shternbuch, the Brisker Rov, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chofetz Chaim…”

    The above statement in TBU (True But Useless). Yes they are classic Litvaks and there where / are others as well (see my post on page 1).

    #1531569

    Midwest2
    Participant

    This thread makes me want to cry, literally. I am of the same generation (I think) as CTL, and forty years ago he would not have been considered MO in an out-of-town community. (Brooklyn I can’t speak for.) He’s also old enough to remember how we got this way, and what we had to go through on the way. In my neighborhood the older houses all have restrictions in the deeds – no selling to Blacks or Jews. Hotels routinely refused Jews rooms. And so forth. The younger generations, who never had to deal with this, feel entitled, when it’s the previous doros who fought the battles.

    Furthermore, the whole business of labeling other Jews with denigrating labels – MO, Chassidish, Litvish – or any label at all, is revolting. It’s sinas chinam. Remember that? It’s how we lost the Second Bais HaMikdash. We’re reading Avos these days, which tells us a lot about machlokes and it’s consequences. Yet it seems that nowadays people make machlokes just for amusement. Let’s stop playing with labels and get back to the emes – kol Yisrael areivim zeh l’zeh.

    #1531571

    Joseph
    Participant

    NP, it is you (not I) who is repeating yourself. I’ve already refuted all your repetitive points.

    #1531581

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    If anyone is still under the impression that the MO is the only part of the Orthodoxy that works and has an education then they need to speak with their local kiruv professional, not the CR. That was never anyone’s point, and you’re only making a fool of yourself shouting that out here.

    NP, you said earlier you haven’t been on the CR long. Could it be that CTL’s posts on other threads concerning religious matters are what cause people to label him as MO rather than this thread alone? And, while we’re at it, when somebody says “I explained above,” that’s not called “repeating himself.”

    #1531660

    ‘ being a “classic litvak”.’ have much to do with” Have you taken a ride through the nicer parts of Lakewood lately”‘?

    Midwest,

    kol Yisrael areivim zeh l’zeh.is more than a fuzzy feel good mantle donning. It bears with it obligations to reprove others (It is the basis with which we are yotze another jew ,because we bear their performance obligation)
    cf.D’vorim 29:28

    #1531666

    Joseph
    Participant

    “NP, you said earlier you haven’t been on the CR long. Could it be that CTL’s posts on other threads concerning religious matters are what cause people to label him as MO rather than this thread alone? ”

    Yes, that’s exactly it. It’s hardly this thread but the sum total of his comments elsewhere on this forum, as I pointed out in a previous comment. And I referred to him as MO with all due respect. In no way was that categorization used in a denigrating way (unless ones believes being MO itself is a denigration.)

    #1531667

    The little I know
    Participant

    For those who might believe that having an advanced college degree is correlated with a designation of MO (whatever that is supposed to mean), there is a simple way to refute this. There are quite a few conferences and conventions of professionals with advanced degrees, in various sciences, medicine, psychology, accounting and business, social work, real estate, investments, etc. Visit any of these and peruse the audience. The presence of many professionals who are otherwise mainstream frum, litvish and chassidish. is noticeable. Then tell us there is such a correlation.

    #1531675

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    unless ones believes being MO itself is a denigration

    Which you do.

    (It’s hardly this thread but the sum total of his comments elsewhere on this forum)

    #1531676

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There are quite a few conferences and conventions of professionals with advanced degrees, in various sciences, medicine, psychology, accounting and business, social work, real estate, investments, etc. Visit any of these and peruse the audience. The presence of many professionals who are otherwise mainstream frum, litvish and chassidish. is noticeable.

    That doesn’t refute the correlation, it just means it’s not absolute.

    #1531681

    DovidBT
    Participant

    unless ones believes being MO itself is a denigration

    Based on the above posts, it appears that some people, including CTL, do consider MO to be a denigration. But maybe that’s a topic for a new thread, which would probably be an endless discussion with no resolution.

    #1531683

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Which you do.”

    Whether I do or not, I surely haven’t expressed that in any way in this thread.

    #1531686

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not sure how you missed the second half of my post. It wasn’t such a long post.

    #1531763

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Joseph
    “NP, it is you (not I) who is repeating yourself. I’ve already refuted all your repetitive points.”

    Ok, if you say so.

    You do realize that there are many MANY yidden who are talmidim of Ponovich, Brisk, and Mir who are currently very successful businessmen and professionals. They learn, work, and offer (substantial) support for their Yeshivos as well as their local community institutions. Not to mention the many small frum businesses and tradesmen in their communities.

    @ It’s Time For Truth
    The Classic Litvak has/had a disinterest for money, as well an aversion for ostentatious goods.

    I’m sure we can all agree that the raison d’etre of a Yid is coming closer to Hashem through Torah and Mitzvos. What does that have to do with a disinterest in money? We do pray for parnassa 3 times a day. Ostentatious goods is relative to your peer group.

    #1531767

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Midwest2

    “the whole business of labeling other Jews with denigrating labels – MO, Chassidish, Litvish – or any label at all, is revolting”

    For the most part the above labels are not denigrating. People tend to self identify with certain kahilot. What is revolting is
    1) Negative stereotypes about the groups
    2) Historical revisionism
    3) When assimilation is only regarded as such when it cuts to the left
    4) When a 9TH GENERATION frum Yid self identifies as a classic litvak and is being told by people who don’t know him personally that he is MO. And then not a single shred of evidence is provided to substantiate their statements save for some obscure references to “other posts”.

    #1531784

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “1) Negative stereotypes about the groups”
    You mean like saying Chassidim spend too much on weddings and don’t give tzedakah?

    “3) When assimilation is only regarded as such when it cuts to the left”
    What does this even mean? Religious left or political left? Also, when have you seen this conversation about assimilation occur anywhere on this thread?

    “…And then not a single shred of evidence is provided to substantiate their statements save for some obscure references to “other posts”.”
    What would you have us do, dig through old posts of CTL? At that point, I think we all agree it’s too personal. I don’t even know that CTL denies that his views might mesh well with parts of the MO (he admitted that he poskened like Rabbi JB Soloveitchik, so how could he not?) I think he just wishes to identify as he always has, as do many people of his generation. Surely, I’m not really the only one here who has run into people in identical situations to what CTL is describing .

    #1531792

    MO is a better label than the new Postmodern Orthodoxy
    However it ought to be a general denigration
    For R.Norman Lamm and ybm”l Rabbi JB Soloveitchik the term was/is a sort of halfway house almost like Carmelis

    #1532131

    huju
    Participant

    I have a comment about the opening post which may sound insulting, but it is not intended to be. I would be curious to know where you were born, what is the first language you learned to speak, and whether you are a full-time English speaker, a full-time Yiddish speaker, or some other language entirely. Your English, as written, shows no familiarity with English grammar and usage. If English is your third, fourth or eighth language, you are doing OK. But if it is your first or second, you should work on it, or give it up.

    Again, I emphasize, I mean no insult, but this site is an English-language site, and your English is faulty.

    #1532796

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ NCB
    ““1) Negative stereotypes about the groups”
    You mean like saying Chassidim spend too much on weddings and don’t give tzedakah?

    Yep. That’s a great example. Couldn’t agree with you more.

    “3) When assimilation is only regarded as such when it cuts to the left”
    What does this even mean? Religious left or political left?”

    Both actually. Assimilation means adapting non-jewish ideas / culture. Somehow assimilation to the right is given a pass.

    “I don’t even know that CTL denies that his views might mesh well with parts of the MO”

    He denied it loudly and clearly.

    “he admitted that he poskened like Rabbi JB Soloveitchik, so how could he not?”

    Um, as I pointed out above HaRav Meiselman considers himself a talmid or RJBS. I don’t know anyone (in their right mind) who considers HaRav Meiselman MO.

    #1532829

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    What does “assimilation to the right” mean? That’s not rhetorical; I actually don’t understand what you’re saying.

    #1533045

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Assimilation means adapting non-jewish ideas / culture. Somehow assimilation to the right is given a pass.

    What does “assimilation to the right” mean? That’s not rhetorical; I actually don’t understand what you’re saying.

    Based on the above, I suppose that “assimilation to the right” means “adopting non-jewish ideas / culture” that are “on the right”.

    But what are these non-jewish ideas / culture that are “on the right”?

    #1534267

    Joseph
    Participant

    NP, take a look at this comment from CTL and tell me if that sounds like a classical Litvak:

    Divorce, Regret and Marriage Counselors

    And that comment is hardly his most outstanding, it just happens to be a quick one to find since iiTfT pointed this out.

    #1550814

    R’Kalonymus Kalman Shapiro of Piasetshna, the legendary rebbe of the Warsaw Ghetto who refused to escape without his followers and was murdered by the Nazis in Treblinka in 1943, was himself one of the most creative Hasidic minds of the 20th century. According to “Hasidism,” however, Shapiro “agreed with many of the critiques of Hasidism as a movement that lost its original spirit and animating mysticism, becoming instead a rigid social framework devoid of any vitality.”

    #1551811

    CS
    Participant

    “According to “Hasidism,” however, Shapiro “agreed with many of the critiques of Hasidism as a movement that lost its original spirit and animating mysticism, becoming instead a rigid social framework devoid of any vitality.”

    It seems Satmar has a similar line “Nishtakcha Toras haBaal Shem Tov.”.

    The Rebbe completely disagreed and its not applicable to Chabad which is more of an mystical ideology than anything else…

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