Dor Yesharim

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  • #594021
    memo
    Member

    When do you check dor yesharim? What # dates (middle #s??) What do you think of checking it…lets say your not compatible??? What happens then??

    #726398
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    I heard that in Crown Heights they don’t start dating until they confirm that their numbers match up, though I cannot confirm this to be actual practice.

    I know that this is tabu by the general public, like

    BP, flatbush, Monsey, Lakewood, especially the Heimishe yidden.

    I wonder why though? Doesn’t it make sense to avoid any hardships that will arise when they really like each only to find out they are not compatible.

    #726399

    Should be checked before dating, when checking plastic or cloth for table cloths

    #726400
    deiyezooger
    Member

    As soon as you decide to see each other.

    #726401
    aries2756
    Participant

    As a mother I believe that by the third or fourth date you should check the numbers and not continue until you have the results. There is no point in getting your feelings and emotions involved only to get bad news and have to break up.

    I also don’t believe you should check before you go out, that is just foolish. Because the odds are in your favor, so making yourself nuts for every shidduch would be pointless.

    #726402
    miamigirl613
    Member

    I completely agree. Why not do it before they start going out? If they start liking each other and not compatible what’s the point? I don’t understand why people wait until its going well. It just does not make sense!

    #726403
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is no reason to not check before the first date.

    There is good reason to not go out at all before checking.

    Check before the first date.

    #726404
    Yanky123
    Member

    NA!! Don’t check till 3rd date. It’s a pain and 99 percent of the time its fine. I went out with many a girl and yet to have a problem. Chill out, your right you have nothing to lose, but nowadays people go out so much, why go crazy. If it gets past 2 or 3 then check.

    Small note, because it is such a rarity to be a problem, some guys look at it negatively when asked before first date. I personally don’t care either way, but some guys will think you are the ‘overbearing’ and super health conscious type’. Now, yes I know I’m going to hear all you mommy’s (and I can prob predict which city your from. . .) reply with the following; “But its a health thing and therefore I will do what I have to do. Period.” To you I say, work on yourself and next time davka wait till 3rd date before asking. It will be very good exercise for your (psychological) health. Hatzlacha!!

    #726405
    real-brisker
    Member

    Why not before the 3rd date? All it is, is just one phone call.

    #726406
    popcorn
    Member

    I think you should definitely do the DOR YESHARIM before even the 1st date. I read an article written by a well known Rav in Crown Heights about the importance of this. He unfortunately had a child with Tay-Sachs(Pre Dor Yesharim days) and wrote how he counseled a couple that were dating and really liked each other and wanted to get married. They did the Dor Yesharim check AFTER

    all the dating and the results came back negative…meaning they

    were both carriers. They were crushed. However, they insisted on

    still getting married and vowed that nothing would get in the way of the feelings they had for each other. One year after marriage a child with Tay-Sachs was born to them. Please, everyone do the Dor Yesharim check BEFORE dating. May Klal Yisroel be blessed with Happy and Healthy Shidduchim!

    #726407
    popcorn
    Member

    I meant the test results came back POSITIVE…that they were both carriers

    #726408
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    Although when I was dating, only one girl out of “I don’t care to remember” (to many), refused to date till we checked it out.

    Still I agree w/ realbrisker, & the others. It makes no sense

    to wait. I couldn’t imagine how devastated I would be if the

    girl I had clicked with wouldn’t of matched up.

    I’d be furious, & probably start a post in the CR about the foolishness of not getting this out of the way,

    if YWN/CR were up & running at the time.

    Btw I meant Taboo, abbrev vs. I gotta stop texting. It’s ruining my yeshiva (college) level grammer.

    #726409
    Ralphie
    Member

    “As a mother”?? Why cause unnecessary pain? If you’re going to check anyway, do it before they meet. Three or four dates is plenty of time to bond and then to find they’re incompatible is heartbreaking.

    #726410
    shlomozalman
    Member

    The original intent, and the basis on which the gedolim gave their approval to the Dor Yesharim system was very clear. The couple must get a green light from Dor Yesharim before they meet.

    #726411
    bjjkid
    Participant

    where i come from, after three dates we almost start planning a l’chayim! 🙂 🙂 we for sure check dor yeshurim before meeting once!!!

    #726412
    tzippi
    Member

    New2thescene, the problem is that if a parent decides at date 3 to check the other side gets nervous, when all the parent wants to do is spare the kids heartbreak (and saving money isn’t inconsequential either, though very secondary). So there has to be an understanding among those who don’t check first (say the guy’s in town for a chasuna, or to see someone else, it didn’t work out but he still has an extra day) that no one will freak out if someone brings up DY.

    #726413
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There are basically two ways people handle this.

    One way, and the way I endorse, is to always check before the first date. It takes only 3 minutes to call, and the answer is very specific- yes/no.

    The other way is to wait until it is getting “serious”. People who endorse this say that there is no reason to check if it is not serious anyway.

    I do not understand this.

    Firstly, there is no reason to not check.

    Secondly, you create a new ritual in the relationship called “checking dor yeshorim”. I think that is foolish, since relying on meaningless symobolism in the place of meaningful interaction is bad. If you feel close to her- tell her. Don’t hint it through absurd rituals.

    If I date someone and I like her, I say, “I like you”. If you can’t communicate your feelings with words and meaningful actions, you don’t have a very honest relationship.

    Thirdly, there is really no reason for anyone to ever have to go through the feelings of liking someone and being cut off because of dor yeshorim incompatibility.

    #726414
    anon for this
    Participant

    Is it possible that one reason people delay checking is because of the (unfounded) stigma associated with being a carrier of one of the genetic diseases? If someone checks with DY before the first date, rather than later in the process, then it’s more likely (just because more matches are being suggested) that at some point a suggested match will be rejected by DY, revealing that both individuals are carriers for one or more fatal diseases. If they wait to check, then the match may well be rejected for other reasons. If both are later redd to and marry non-carriers, their carrier status might never be known.

    I’m not saying that this makes sense, but I think that there is a stigma associated with being a carrier exists (even though there are no health risks associated with it as with, say, sickle cell). In fact if I understand correctly, these taboos are the reason behind some of DY’s rules.

    #726415
    Sam l Am
    Member

    No one would know of the “yes”, except the two parties themselves. So there is no stigma.

    #726416
    trak443
    Participant

    Many years ago, when DY only checked for one disease, being a carrier carried a stigma. Nowadays, they check for many different genetic diseases, so there’s NO way to know which one you (and the other person) is a carrier for if it comes back “no” from DY.

    That’s why I just put the DY number on top (under the address/phone number) on my son’s and daughter’s shidduch resume…..

    #726417
    Feif Un
    Participant

    My wife is not from the US, and she’d never had the Dor Yesharim blood test taken. We liked each other and thought it was headed towards marriage, but didn’t know if we should wait for her to get tested.

    Her father (in Israel) went and asked R’ Chaim Kanievsky if we should wait. He replied “I didn’t have a Dor Yesharim test either”. My father in law said, “True, but now that there is an option, should they wait?”

    R’ Chaim said “No, and I give a brocha that all their children should be healthy.”

    #726418
    popcorn
    Member

    Unless you run into a situation where both boy and girl dating find out they are carriers…..the average person does not even need to know that they are a carrier. That is undisclosed information from Dor Yeshorim. Being a carrier means nothing…unless you marry someone who is also a carrier.

    both husband and wife need to BOTH be carriers for a diseased

    child to be a possibility chas’v’sholom. Good Health to all!

    #726419
    m in Israel
    Member

    Dor Yeshorim’s own literature is very clear that they and the gedolim who support them want to be called BEFORE even one date. It is a simple phone call — the same way people research anything else in a shidduch, and make phone calls to references, teachers, neighbors, etc., they can make one more phone call to Dor Yeshorim — what’s the big deal? aries2756 — What is foolish about a 3 minute phone call? What do you loose? new2thescene — Same question — how is one simple phone call considered “making yourself nuts” or “going crazy”? Do those individuals who view it as overbearing to request Dor Yeshorim numbers also view it as overbearing to do other research about a shidduch?

    I have heard people say that it is a waste of resources for Dor Yeshorim to have to answer so many potentially not tachlisdik questions. I have heard from Dor Yeshorim that this is not the case. They would rather be called numerous extra times rather than any one calling once there is already an emotional attachment. The main cost for Dor Yeshorim is the initial blood work — keeping up with phone calls is negligible.

    As far as the stigma, this has already been mentioned by an earlier post, but the only people who know the results are the parties involved (Dor Yeshorim requests that the individuals or their parents call — do not give the numbers to a shadchan, etc. — make the call yourself). Since a “non-compatible” response means both parties are carriers for the same genetic disease, it is highly unlikely that either side would betray the confidentiality of the other, so what is the stigma? A shadchan can just be told “no thank you, this doesn’t seem to be for us” — a lot easier than explaining after date #2 or #3 when things were doing fine why you suddenly want to break up.

    Reasons to test before beginning include avoiding the difficult situation of finding out that one is not compatible after being emotionally involved, even slightly, and the awkwardness/ nervousness of having to request numbers once you are in the dating process (“is this a hint?” “maybe he/ she feels more ‘serious’ than me?” “what does that mean?”)

    #726420
    oomis
    Participant

    IMO, if you already have had yourself tested by DY, you may as well check out the compatibility of the two parties’ numbers BEFORE they meet. I will admit that my daughter and son-in-law did not it that way,they checked after a couple of dates, and B”H were “compatible,” but they took a huge risk, as they were already invested emotionally with each other, and it would have been devastating to them to be told, “not compatible,” at that point.

    DY, btw, does not check for certain conditions that are genetic but not life-threatening, and which could still have devastating ramifications on the couple, should their children inherit the gene from them.

    #726421
    Midwest2
    Participant

    I knew a family who had had a child with a genetic disease (not Tay-Sachs, but progressive and fatal). They lost their second child. The third and fourth were all right. I lost track of them about then.

    Believe me, the pain this couple went through watching their child slowly die and knowing that it was because of them was heartbreaking.

    Test first, so you won’t be sorry later.

    #726422

    I am not saying we shouldn’t all do DY but I have a question on it.

    Yes, no one wants to be the “couple with the child who has….” but aren’t we doing Klal Yisroel a big disfavor because in a couple of generations, everyone, or almost everyone, will be carriers? I spoke this over with people who understand genetics. they said it is not great for everyone to do DY because of this. We are only postponing the inevitable, as unless our grandchildren (or great grandkids) will all marry geirim, too many will be carriers. We are just awaiting a cure to be found, rather than solving anything. Since frum yidden only marry other frum yidden, our gene pool is smaller than other societies and our families are all genetically closer than others. This is especially true in certain sub-societies, like certain chasidish groups, who will only marry others of that same group.

    any ideas on this? Other than everyone having their children become genetic researchers to look for a cure. Tay-Sachs is mainly a Jewish disease and therefore those in the general society do not have such a large stake in finding a cure for it, rather than say a cure for cancer or diabetes which impacts almost every person (name a person who does not know one person with either of those two diseases).

    #726424
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    HSS:

    No, that is not accurate at all. Since only half the children of a 1 carrier marriage will be carriers, we will at most ever end up with half of us being carriers- which would work fine.

    However, since less than half of us are carriers now, there is no reason why the carrier group will grow.

    (Imagine a group of ten people whose descendants will intra-marry. Two are currently carriers. Each marriage will have 4 children.

    The second generation is twenty people, of whom 8 are from a 1 carrier marriage. Of those 8, 4 are carriers.

    The third generation is 40 people, of whom 16 are from a one carrier marriage. Of those 16, 8 are carriers.

    So you see, the ratio remains the same.)

    #726425
    ulisis
    Member

    You’ve got that backwards. Eventually, the disease will die out. If everyone does DY, in only several generations, there will be virtually no carriers left.

    #726426
    Gabboim
    Member

    havesomeseichel,

    What are you talking about? The vast majority of Jewish people are non-carriers. And the majority of shidduchim are between two non-carriers. Therefore their children are also non-carriers. So it doesn’t pass on the next generation. At no point with current practices will a majority of people be carriers. (Even if children of a one carrier parent becomes a carrier. And I’m not even certain if children of parents where only one is a carrier automatically become carriers themselves.)

    #726427
    Health
    Participant

    havesomeseichel -The way I understand genetics, with DY, there will be less carriers. And I have a college education in the health sciences. Please explain your way of thought.

    #726428
    Midwest2
    Participant

    Simple genetics: Each person has two of the relevant genes. A carrier has one healthy and one Tay-Sachs gene. On the average, half thecarrier’s children will get the healthy gene, half will get the TS gene. So if a carrier has 8 children (not unusual in frum circles), that means that 4 will be carriers. In other words, the gene itself will never go away.

    What will go away is Tay-Sachs as a medical condition. If a child can ch’v only have the disease if they inherited a TS gene from each parent (both parents are carriers) then if carriers never marry each other then no one will have the disease. But the TS genes will still be around, so we will still need Dor Yesharim or something similar.

    So get tested. And save yourself some potential heartbreak – do it BEFORE the first date.

    #726429

    using DY will eliminate the disease (for those that use it)

    it will also decrease the number of carriers (not to a large extent though)

    #726430
    Cedarhurst
    Member

    How does the math work on that?

    #726431
    bezalel
    Participant

    DY will not decrease the number of carriers. Doing nothing would decrease the number of carriers slightly but the tradeoffs aren’t worth it.

    Assuming a 3% carrier rate with DY in place the next generation will also have a 3% carrier rate. With no genetic screening in place the next generation will have a 2.955% carrier rate and a 0.0225% infection rate. after correcting the numbers to relect only those that survive it is still less than 2.956%

    #726432

    Where can I go in Israel to get the test?

    #726433
    Feif Un
    Participant

    Depending on what the carrier rate is, DY can decrease it. At some point, as was pointed out, the decrease would be so minimal it wouldn’t be noticeable. Here’s the math. Let’s start out assuming it’s a 50/50 split between carriers and non-carriers. Now, there are 4 possible couples, with Y for carrier, N for non-carrier: YY, YN, NY, NN. YY would be rejected by DY. Therefore, 1/3 of couples would have no carriers, while 2/3 would have 1 carrier. Their children should be 50/50 between carriers and non-carriers. That gives us 1/3 of the next generation as carriers, and 2/3 as non-carriers.

    Now, do the same math over again, but only 1/3 starting off as carriers instead of 1/2. The percentage of carriers will drop every generation. For the next generation, the percentage of carriers drops from 33% to 25%. The next generation drops to 20%.

    #726434
    bezalel
    Participant

    Feif Un:

    Your logic is flawed because it assumes that DY will cause carriers to drop out of the gene pool. DY is specifically designed not to eliminate carriers from the gene pool.

    #726435
    Feif Un
    Participant

    Bezalel: no, it’s simple math. If one parent is a carrier, then about 50% of their kids should be carriers also. Since DY will weed out cases where both parents are carriers, only 2/3 of couples will have a parent who is a carrier (assuming a 50/50 split at first of carriers). Half of the children from these couples will be carriers. 1/2 of 2/3 is 1/3. For the 1/3 of couples where neither parent is a carrier, all their kids won’t be carriers. Therefore, one generation in, you go from 50% carriers to 33% carriers.

    #726436
    shlomozalman
    Member

    Bezalel is absolutely correct here. If one of a couple has the gene and they have two children, the number of people (two) stays the same, and the number of carriers (statistically one) stays the same. If they have four children, the carrier rate is still 50%, just like the parents were. No change.

    The only way to reduce carrier rates is for carriers to marry each other. Their affected children take two defective genes out of the pool since they do not have children themselves.

    Since Dor Yesharim thankfully does not allow for affected children, none of the defective genes in the population at large is eliminated from the gene pool.

    A well known scientist and talmid chochom has developed a mathematical model on the assumption that no carriers marry. It has shown that the carrier rate rises over time, but so slowly that for hundreds of years it has virtually no implications for public policy or private behavior.

    #726437
    shlomozalman
    Member

    “A well known scientist and talmid chochom has developed a mathematical model on the assumption that no carriers marry. “

    That no carriers marry each other, of course.

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