Dose of reality: Kids kicked out of school

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  • #709013

    that reminds me of byron randall

    byron randall was the name of an online friend when i used to spend a lot of time on a photography forum a few years ago.

    just a few days ago i was trying to remember the name of a friend of mine from about 30 years ago. his first name was also byron. i still cant recall his last name. and ill tell you why. everytime i bring the name byron up into my consciousness, immediately randall pops up along with it. i am completely unable to recall any other last name that goes with byron except randall.

    and there is NOTHING i can do about it. byron randall is stuck in my mind forever, and it prevents any other byron from coming up in my memory.

    now i know thats not an exact parallel, but just gives one some indication about how perfectly harmless things can enter your mind unwittingly and prevent other things from entering.

    the Mussar seforim speak about this. the more a Yid takes the World to heart, the less room there is for HaKodeshBorchu. and im not even beginning to talk about the pollution and damage from shmutz

    #709014
    RSRH
    Member

    WIY: You speak with anger and frustration. Perhaps you are reflecting you own personal struggles on others? You struggle with the negative impact television, films, and music have had on you, and I suspect your hashkafic and halachik background has not given you the tools to deal with these issues. As a result you are frustrated; frustrated by your own inability to rectify your outer appearance with your inner uncertainty, and frustrated by what you perceive as the looming danger that is sure to strike countless unsuspecting young Jewish boys and girls certain to fall into the same trap as you.

    As one deeply involved in many areas on non-Jewish (though I will venture to say, not anti-Torah) study, and intimately familiar with all the world has to offer, I must say i do not share your fear and consternation. Thank God, I have been taught, and have myself studied how one can deal effectively with all that life in this world entails b’menuchas hanefesh. I have not played ostrich and stuck my head in the sand pretending its not there; I have not banished the world from my sight out of fear of being negatively influenced by it, only to leave it to bring down those such as yourself who are less well prepared for the challenge. I have engaged the world and all that is in it. I have evaluated all the intellectual ideas and social norms with which I have been privileged to come in contact, and consider their value or lack thereof in light of the rules and principles of the Torah.

    I feel for your apparent inner turmoil. But please, please don’t do as so many others and reflect your frustrations on others to their own detriment. Not all are like you, and not all will benefit from applying your experiences to their own lives. Indeed, it is precisely that idea – that one person’s perspective or experience can serve as a cookie-cutter template for everyone else – that leads to the development of those “bad” children you are so very afraid of.

    #709015
    WIY
    Member

    RSRH

    My anger and frustration stems from the fact that I am bothered that I was so bamboozled by hollywood although Baruch Hashem I was able to pull myself out. Of course what we see will have an effect on us even when we stop looking at thesed inappropriate things. I haven’t forgotten what I have seen. The sifrei Kabbalah say that it is nearly impossible to erase lewd images one has seen. So of course I am frustrated but BH I have grown and continue to grow.

    I’m also angry and frustrated because I know of a # of kids as well as people who are in their 20s and 30s who were wrecked by TV, movies, music…it kills me that people are so blind to the negative influences of TV and movies. You talk to almost any high school kid who watches movies and they will say “what’s wrong with watching tv and movies?”

    People just don’t see the damage and its destroying our youth day by day. I wish I could do something about it but I can’t and therefore feel frustrated.

    It kills me that families in BP and Flatbush allow their kids to watch TV and movies. Forgget the hypocrisy in my eyes its like injecting your kid with a deadly virus. I have seen tens of people affected, I see how the kids talk, there’s certain slang and attitudes and facial expressions and body language one picks up from TV and movies. I see how these kids and adults act its all from what they watch and it hurts me because its so obvious how they are destroying themselves.

    Its like a reformed addict. It kills him to watch someone else doing it to himself capice?

    #709016
    twisted
    Participant

    I sincerely nominate Aries for Mashgicha Ruchnis for this forum.

    WIY: It is an azus ponim of you to talk to the Mashgicha that way, and to claim that because someone is 50 something, they are out of touch with present realities. You fail to accept wise counsel.

    #709018
    aries2756
    Participant

    Twisted, thank you! I was going to respond but I think you have said enough! I do know what kids are doing since I do have kids of my own and I have mucho experience with at risk kids. And BTW I do know what’s on TV that’s how I have my skills at decorating. So I choose not to watch Family Guy and other things which insult my intelligence. And again I wills say it is not the TV that ruins a kid it is the dysfunction around them that does.

    #709020
    WIY
    Member

    Aries

    “I wills say it is not the TV that ruins a kid it is the dysfunction around them that does.”

    There are kids frfom the best of homes that have issues including children of Roshei Yeshivah. Don’t blame it all on dysfunction (if you mean dysfunctional homes).

    I have heard from someone who is one of the most involved people with kids at risk say that he doesn’t know one at risk boy who isn’t highly involved or didn’t start off his at risk career with looking at inappropriate things. Once improper images get into your head (for a guy) you are in trouble.

    I’m not disrespecting you. But don’t disregard the power of todays technology to destroy kids. Once you are into these things your mitzvah observance starts to slip its guaranteed.

    #709021
    myfriend
    Member

    As many experienced kids at risk counselors have told me and Rabbonim have said on numerous occasions, having a TV in the home is one of the largest causes of teens at risk and OTD.

    #709022
    aries2756
    Participant

    WIY, so tell me then, how could the children of a Rosh Yeshiva be so shallow that they would watch TV behind their parents back? Where is their shtarkeit and backbone? Something is missing if children from such a temimisdik foundation could allow themselves to be sidetracked or distracted! Shouldn’t they themselves have a hashpoah on the OTD kid?

    This is where your theory doesn’t hold water. There is something missing to the story. There has to be something already happening with the child that would weaken his resolve to allow him to be persuaded by the other child. Either to be persuaded to look at improper magazines or TV, or whatever. If he was strong in his beliefs it wouldn’t happen.

    #709023
    WIY
    Member

    Aries

    I dont know how strong you expect a 11-14 year old to be in his beliefs. But its not all beliefs. If a kid has bad friends, bad influences in his class that will beat his beliefs any day. A kid these days doesnt have the strength to battle such a challenge when his friend and classmate introduces him to improper things.

    Let me show you a vort I found recently,

    Can A Malach Protect Your Children From Their Friends?

    Chazal tell us that when Rivkah would pass by a house of Avodah Zara, Eisav would push to get out. When she passed by a Makon Torah, Yaakov would start pushing. Why would Yaakov push to get out if we know that in the mother’s womb, a child has a Malach that teaches him Kol HaTorah Kula? What could be a more ideal for Yaakov than remaining in a protected place learning torah with a Malach?

    The Baalei Mussar say that we learn from here that even if your Rebbi is a Malach, if you have a bad chavrusa or you have bad friends, you need to run away. The impact of your peers cannot be diminished even while learning with a Malach.

    While there will be better moral authorities and less good ones in your children’s life, their friends are more of a constant. They tend to turn over less and have a huge influence over your children, even if your child is sitting and learning torah with a Malach.

    (From revach.net)

    So your kid can be easily influenced by others even if he comes from a great family and has the proper beliefs ok?

    The influence that a bad friend can have is likely the strongest influence there is. Thats why schools must be very tough about getting rid of kids who are a bad influence. It doesnt matter how great the Rebbe is, you see? He cant beat the influence of a bad kid.

    #709024
    Health
    Participant

    WIY -Your mistake is that we all come from Yaakov and not Eisav. I don’t think that everything on TV is bad, only some things. Parents who do have TV’s should definitely monitor their kids -how much they watch, what they watch, etc. Don’t destroy these kids, because their parents let them do whatever they want, by throwing them out. They are your brothers, sons of Yaakov Aveinu, just like you!

    #709025
    aries2756
    Participant

    I know that MY kids knew right from wrong even when they were 11 and 14. They knew how to choose their friends and which kids to stay away from. They knew what would get them into trouble and what would gain them rewards and mitzvos. If they felt someone was doing something wrong or something that would get them into trouble they came to me to talk about it.

    Many of the kids I dealt with told me how they tried to protect other kids from going down their path. But when they find kids in pain they try to help them. WIY, you are never going to convince me that the kids you knew were “bad”. I know from my experience that they only had “bad” problems or bad issues.

    EDITED

    #709026
    WIY
    Member

    Health

    There’s nothing Kosher on TV today anymore. Sorry. Even if its not about innapropriate things it will still be showing anti Torah middos and Hashkafos. I’m not sure about the ads either..they are likely to have inappropriate things…

    The problem is (no offense to you) but if you yourself watch todays TV then your value system is compromised and you will not even pick up on any problems with the childrens programming. If you want to be objective have someone who doesn’t watch TV review what your kids are watching and see their opinion.

    #709027
    minyan gal
    Member

    “GAW, perhaps that partially explains why we have a less than 1% OTD rate while yours is…? “

    msseeker: What is with the “We” and “Yours”? That is a big part of the problem. We are all “Us”. We are all yidden and must come together to solve problems. Anything less is divisive.

    #709028
    Health
    Participant

    WIY -Today’s TV has programs called reruns, which I know some of them aren’t bad. A parent has to make sure what the kids are watching. It’s true what your saying about Family guy or other such cartoons. I personally have never watched them, but the way I understand it is that Hollywood developed cartoons for adults. They aren’t meant for children. Even Hollywood makes a distinction between adults and children on what’s appropiate. Just because you watched the worse of the worse, doesn’t mean there is nothing “Kosher” on.

    #709029
    Moq
    Member

    msseeker: What is with the “We” and “Yours”? That is a big part of the problem. We are all “Us”. We are all yidden and must come together to solve problems. Anything less is divisive.


    That sounds nice, but you haven’t answered his question. We’re talking about the approach of one community versus the success of another.

    #709030
    WIY
    Member

    Health

    Ok for the last time. I watched various TV shows ranging from ones rated for general audiences to M adult audiences. Even the ones approved for children have boy friend girlfriend themes. Kissing on the lips or any kind of male female kissing and hugging and other things children shouldn’t see or hear.

    I’m not telling you what to do or how to bring up your child but understand that if your kids are watching anything current on TV they are being fed anti Torah concepts and Hashkafos. Todayyou can go into a judaica store and find many Jewish DVDs and concert DVDs there’s plenty of kosher Jewish media out there (as corny as you may think they are). These are your kids we are talking about, do what’s best for their neshamos.

    #709031
    WIY
    Member

    Aries

    I know I have been using the term “bad” I don’t mean the kid is intrinsically bad. He is a Yid with a pure neshama but he is on a bad path and acting “badly” and therefore can’t be kept around other regular kids.

    If someone has the flu or something worse that is highly contagious would you want them near your kids? If you saw someone with a contagious disease going near any kids would you do your best to quarantine him/her? Well that’s the situation as I see it. I’m sorry I’m not as PC as you are but you are totally seeing this from an emotional standpoint and not looking at reality.

    My heart goes out to a kid who is suffering and heading down a “bad” path, but if I saw good kids interacting with him id try and get them away from him. Try to see the whole picture. Try.

    #709032
    msseeker
    Member

    WE is the frummest around vs. the less frum, all along the continuum of Orthodoxy. I find that the frummer the community, the less OTD kids it has, and now I have Rebbetzin Tziporah Heller’s confirmation on that. Wanna start a poll on that again? Let’s go:

    1. What type of school did you go to (chassidish, yeshivish, MO)?

    2. What percentage of classmates went OTD?

    My answers:

    1. frummest of the frum.

    2. O.

    #709033
    msseeker
    Member

    Some stats:

    2. Intermarriage among Orthodox: 3%. Do you know anyone formerly yeshivish or chassidish who married a goy? In my entire life I’ve heard of only one person from a crazy home who did that. I guess 99.9% of those 3% are MO. If almost 3% MO marry goyim, how many go off the derech? Scary. So stop lecturing us about our high walls and try to learn what we’re doing right. Don’t argue with success.

    #709034
    RSRH
    Member

    WIY: The big picture is for God; we are small people perfectly situated to deal with the small picture – with the individual we have before us. We have neither the breadth or depth of understanding to make big-picture judgments.

    Stop trying to do God’s work for Him. Just follow the Law in the situation before you as you perceive it.

    #709035
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    msseeker:

    Thank you (I did not look). I would not trust Cross currents; they do have an ulterior motive (perhaps? 😉

    Being that I am “Charaidi” (I am a Quaker), I don’t see your point.

    If you bring stats about straimel wearers vs. non wearers, then good.

    But Spudiks don’t count 🙂

    #709036
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    My answers as well:

    1. Yerayi Hashem (not sure what “Frumest of the frum” means).

    2. O.

    And I like your use of Ebonics (AAVE) to show your ethnic pride.

    #709037
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I don’t consider chassidim any more observant than Yeshivish or MO people. I think observence level is something personal – you can have a MO person who keeps halacha better than a chassidish person and vice versa.

    If you are referencing more sheltered vs less sheltered, than say that.

    #709038
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Also, if Chassidim have such a great success rate (which I might postulate is because their birth rate is much higher), why are there organizations out there geared towards helping them leave the ultra-orthodox lifestyle in which they were raised? There is clearly a demand.

    #709039
    WIY
    Member

    SJS

    “why are there organizations out there geared towards helping them leave the ultra-orthodox lifestyle in which they were raised”

    You mean why are there Reshayim in the world and people who are choti umachti es harabim and mesis umadiachs? Great question!

    #709040
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJS:

    MSSeeker is not Chassidish.

    She is a Frummest of the Frum (as per her own words).

    As such, she can never have anyone OTD as part of her group.

    No True Scotsman.

    P.S. I think she might have something to do with Frummy McFrum.

    #709041
    msseeker
    Member

    Yes, there’s a demand for the less than 1% OTD.

    “I don’t consider chassidim any more observant than Yeshivish or MO people.”

    Yeshivish, not necessarily; MO, absolutely. Sorry, SJS, you can’t drey me a kop about this one, not after what I learned in CR about the abominations of YU and 60% of your college boys. And TV is OSSUR, no way around this.

    #709042
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    EDITED

    I don’t know what YU abominations you are talking about. I’ve heard plenty of stories about Yeshiva dorms though.

    We can trade stories from today until tomorrow. Observance is a personal thing.

    The organization exists because there are Chassidish people going OTD who need help integrating into society. You can’t deny that. Their services (per their website) include educational, vocational and emotional support.

    GAW, you love a true scotsman reference 🙂

    #709043
    msseeker
    Member

    MSSeeker IS Chassidish. She’d hate to identify her chassidus in cyberspace, though, so she categorized it (not necessarily herself) as “frummest of the frum”, vehamaivin yovin.

    #709044
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As a “frummest of the frum” I guess I can’t disagree with you.

    Your Frumness overwhelms me.

    I bow to you as I exit.

    Amen.

    #709045
    myfriend
    Member

    msseeker: Do not be bowed in stating the truth, that others take offense at. Chazak V’amatz!

    #709046
    msseeker
    Member

    Thanks, myfriend. Here’s a great vort: ???? ??????? sinners make fun of me, saying ?? ??? you’re so extreme! But the truth is ?????? ?? ????? I just didn’t veer from Your Torah. Gaivah is abominable, but in regards to Torah the rule is ????? ??? ????? ???.

    #709047
    msseeker
    Member

    Just saw this from Rush:

    “If you want to make a conservative angry, tell him a lie. If you want to make a liberal angry, tell him the truth. Works every time.”

    Works for “liberal frum” Jews vs. “conservative frum” Jews too.

    #709048
    msseeker
    Member

    “Chassidim have a reputation for being involved in their own sins.”

    So do Orthodox Jews in the non-Orthodox world. So do Jews in the non-Jewish world. So does Israel among the nations. If you believe our enemies, why don’t you go all the way?

    “I don’t know what YU abominations you are talking about.”

    Official gay dorm rooms. Transgendered tenured professor. Apikorsim teaching. 60% of MO college boys sleeping around (thanks, MOQ). YU Graduate publicly thanking his gay partner at graduation (JO). Enough to make a grown man weep.

    #709050
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    LOL msseeker. Feel free to think whatever you want. But please explain this: If observance is NOT a personal thing, if my neighbor goes to minyan 3X a day, that means my husband is exempt right? Because being observant isn’t a personal thing right?

    But does that also mean if my husband goes to minyan 3X a day but my neighbor doesn’t that my husband isn’t observant?

    #709051
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Here’s a great vort:)

    Fresh Bread is better than stale bread.

    It doesn’t make a difference what sect you are, or who your Rebba is, or who your parents were.

    It only makes a difference what your actions, Mitzvos and Limud Torah are.

    (Unless you are a “Frumest of the Frum”. Then you can be Oved Avoda Zara and not worry about it). 🙂

    #709052
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As a last point:

    You may want to read “Hush” by Eishes Chayil.

    #709053
    msseeker
    Member

    Liberalism is a mental disorder. (Michael Savage)

    You can never get through to a liberal, because once you prove your point with irrefutable facts the lib resorts to name-calling and ridicule and you’d never stoop to his level. So you let him have the last laugh knowing that the bystanders – the smart ones – will judge your arguments on their validity. Hence, the tea party.

    #709054
    squeak
    Participant

    Michael Savage probably has a mental disorder. Just sayin’

    #709055
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    You can’t argue with a worm like me (see very judgemental thread):-)

    Have a good Shabbos, I think I’m done here.

    When you are willing to let your daughter marry a Galitziana, let me know.

    #709056
    squeak
    Participant

    GAW- I take some comfort in that statement, knowing that you have argued with me 🙂

    #709057
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m the worm.

    See my post on the “very judgemental” thread.

    #709058
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I’m actually pretty Conservative. Just not in the Judaism sect way.

    #709059
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Changed my mind.

    Just wish everyone the best.

    [email protected]

    #709060
    Health
    Participant

    msseeker -“And TV is OSSUR, no way around this.” The same Rabbonim that hold this, hold the Internet is just as Ossur, even with filters. Stop with the hypocrisy!

    #709061
    so right
    Member

    Health: That is false. Everyone holds TV is assur. Internet with filters are allowed by most.

    #709062
    sms007
    Member

    just btw, even if there was such a thing as a kosher tv channel or episode or wtvr you want to call it, there are commercials some of which are full of filth, even for just one minute (played again, and again) especially since they are played over and over. even if you say some tv’s allow you to forward past the commercials (which most don’t), you still have to see what you want to fast forward. and kids don’t care much to fast forward commercials anyway. even a bt in their parents home with a tv will have trouble staying awat- and they can be frum as ever in other aspects! tv sucks you in. trust me, i came from there, and know others who did as well.

    #709063
    aries2756
    Participant

    Just so you all know when it comes to the frumest of the frum and the strongest in their beliefs “the Rebbe Meig”. The rules don’t apply to them only to others.

    #709064
    aries2756
    Participant

    Internet with filters are NOT allowed by MOST, that is b’deved and not l’chatchilah.

    #709065
    HaMaphkid
    Member

    I know of a very heimish yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel that these type of bochrum enjoy greatly. They are given a chance to get a bachelors degree as well as smicha. Some yiddin are very individualistic and need room to find out who they are while still keeping them in the confines of kedusha.

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