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Beniguman, you are wrong!! Megilas Ta’anis describes forceful imposition of Torah Law on the misyavnim. Tzidikiyahu was chayav misah be’dinei Shamaim for not doing likewise. And so on and so forth. The Gemorah with the Sanhedrin moving out of the Lishkas Ha’gozis has a different pshat from what you suggest. And acoording to you, people, certainly, should not be drafted against their will!
Mdd,
Please give me the citation within Megilas Ta’anis and especially the source for Tzidikiyahu.
Please explain what the proper pshat in the Gemorah of the Sanhedrin leaving the Lishkas HaGozis.
Being drafted is part of the public sphere and therefore can be made mandatory. But to reiterate, I am talking about drafting not actually serving, which cannot be forced. Similarly, it would be okay to have a core curriculum that included Tanach and Talmud and if a school refused to provide these subjects it would be fined and eventually closed.
Benignuman,
You are ignoring the main part of the issur. You speak of those who want no part of the treifine Medina, and your point with them is moot; they don’t take money anyhow.
They want to draft bochurim whose main objection is that he wants to learn, and you want that to be a crime punishable by loss of citizenship rights. Would you punish chillul Shabbos by taking away all financial benefits?
If there is no way out of the draft then there will be no way out when the State decides to use the army to evacuate the settlements. The draft becomes more of a tool for control and not for the sake of defending the people.
There must always be a way out. Moshe Feiglin is not chareidi and he gets it.
I am not totally sure Charedim are even ready to run the government
Shas does take cabinet positions, but Yahadut Hatorah (or UTJ) has never accepted a top level cabinet position. their Gedolim forbid it.
You have to be prepared to run a government, Its alot easier to govern in theory or from the sidelines, its much harder from the Prime Minsiter chair
Benignuman, I do not have time now to look for the exact ma’are mekomos. I wiil just tell you to look in Choshen Mishpat,siman 2. It says there that even a Beis Din without semichah may execute people who are not chayav misah if the public is porutz be’avierah(or aveiros), if nessecary.
Everyone all over the world has lots to say about the principles of drafting chareidim. Everyone naturally thinks they’re right. When moshiach comes we’ll know who was really right.
Point is – what for?? the IDF expressly said they don’t want the chareidim. It costs too much and there is no real need, they’d rather the budget for weapons.
I think its absurd that the gov is wasting so much effort on this when the economical and security situation demands all their attention. Have ppl forgotten about Iran? Syria? Health issues?
Interesting list of priorities…
Daas Yochid,
The chiluk I am making is between public and private conduct. So someone who opens their store on shabbos will lose their license (eventually, there might be fines first). But nothing will happen for turning on a light in your home.
For people who just “want to learn” I would say (something along these lines) they should be permitted to get a dichui for 5 years. After 5 years the various Torah institutions can each select a small group to continue learning within their institution. The rest will then have to report for army duty. Alternatively, at they could choose to enroll in a Hesder style program.
Anyone who after 5 years still refuses to serve, will lose all state financial benefits but will be permitted to work.
What on earth does it take for health young men to defend themselves and their communities???
Every time there is threat of danger in EY I have read of CR posters asking if they should bring back home kids learning in Israeli yeshivot and sems. Meanwhile kids their age in Israel step up to meet and honour their military obligations.
Has not history taught Jews they must defend themselves, the Torah tells us to have an army, gives us halacha and guidelines for how to manage warfare etc. Why has the modern Haredi world turned itself into a bastion of pacifism except when it comes to arguing with one another?
If you would stop looking for why you cannot serve and rather how you can serve you could reach a happy compromise, without selling out on Torah values. Do you not wonder why there is discord between different sections of Israeli society, look into the eyes of those who have lost sons and nurse the wounded whilst living Torah true lives and think of your hateful references and insults.
Too bad you are deluded the Medinat can prevent R”L another Shoah. If it is decreed, it will happen, regardless of your mighty army and your foolish ideology.
On the contrary, Torah and chesed and mitzvot are the one and only thing which helps.
Compromise? Sorry but no compromise is possible between righteousness and evil, between muttar and assur. It’s either one or the other.
You want to push your delirium? Go ahead, after that you will be busy packing, and let’s hope it will not get worse.
benignuman -“2) The purpose of the draft is that it forces people to make a choice whether or not they are willing to put their money where their mouth is with respect to the Medinah. If someone holds the Medinah is treif, then why should he get money from the Medinah, why should he get unemployment, child checks and free health care?”
Simple reason. The Gedolim at the time decided to go with the flow. They didn’t agree with Satmar and others not to have anything to do with the Medina. They said once it’s here to try to work with them. This includes taking the benefits that are given to any Israeli citizen. The Medina also agreed to Not draft Charedim into the IDF, but had no problem with the Charedim taking social programs and supporting Yeshivos. But you know all this already – so why do you keep repeating the same old dribble over & over? Is it your fierce hatred towards Charedim? Explain it to me -I really don’t understand why you keep saying the same points over & over!
“I don’t think that anyone should be forced at gunpoint to be a soldier (do you really want a disloyal soldier on the battlefield).
This is presupposing that the frum army units will be run al pi halacha.”
Again you contradict yourself. While the MO Rabbis seem to find No prob with going to the army – the Gedolim do find a prob. So why are you forcing your Shittos on us? Do you believe in religious freedom? I don’t see a difference between you and the Catholics & Protestants of Northern Ireland. Over there they believe that they can kill each other because each one has a different interpretation of xianity. So you believe you can punish Charedim monetarily because we have different opinions in Halacha, esp. with regards to going to the IDF.
“As an aside, I find it truly ironic that some people will, in the same breath, say that it is proper to force people to keep all of halacha, but then say that no Gadol has held that Chareidim should be forced into the army, while admitting that there have been Gedolim that held it was a chiyuv to serve in the army.”
I for one, never said that people can be forced to keep the Torah, but I did say No Godol ever said Charedim should be forced into the army. You decided that’s what the MO Rabbis’ hold because they said e/o should go to the army. I doubt they hold this and if you really believe they do, why don’t you ask one of them to come out with a public statement saying that Charedim have to be forced into the IDF? So for you to say that now, which I don’t believe they even hold this, is for you to misinterpret their words for your political agenda!
Mdd,
The halacha you are referring to and the Gemara it is based on are describing a hora’as sha. Not something to be implemented on a broad basis across the board for an extended period of time. If a community is sliding and extreme measures need to be taken against a person then the Halacha says the community leaders can execute someone. There is no source that I am aware of, however, (outside of the ir hanidachas) that allows killing or force on a large scale outside of the strictures of Bais Din and the normal halacha.
Ben,
I would ask the same kasha on you regardless. Why would you not enforce private chillul Shabbos, but would enforce leaving the beis midrash after five years?
Also, why five years? After five years, it’s no longer a mitzvah to learn? Does the z’chus wear out? Suddenly, after five years, Torah doesn’t protect? Does ki heim chayeinu expire?
Tachina -“What on earth does it take for health young men to defend themselves and their communities???”
What on earth does it take for healthy or even Not healthy young men to sit and learn Torah, whether they are Charedi or MO or Chiloni? We need the learning to defend themselves and their communities.
“Has not history taught Jews they must defend themselves, the Torah tells us to have an army, gives us halacha and guidelines for how to manage warfare etc. Why has the modern Haredi world turned itself into a bastion of pacifism except when it comes to arguing with one another?”
No, history has Not taught us that! The army was only a Hishtadlus. In of itself without Bitachon in Hashem and his will, it’s nothing! Ever hear of the Warsaw uprising? But the Torah tells us how to protect ourselves in the Parsha of B’chukosay!
“If you would stop looking for why you cannot serve and rather how you can serve you could reach a happy compromise, without selling out on Torah values. Do you not wonder why there is discord between different sections of Israeli society, look into the eyes of those who have lost sons and nurse the wounded whilst living Torah true lives and think of your hateful references and insults.”
If you would stop trying to force your beliefs on the Charedim then there wouldn’t be much discord. We believe the way the IDF is now – It Is selling out on Torah values.
If Israelis don’t want as many causualties as they have, during wars and terror attacks, let them start keeping more Torah. This is the only real protection!
Daas,
Because the former is private, bein adam l’Makom, and the latter is a duty owed to the public, it is bein adam l’chaveiro. The enforcement is not pointing a gun at someone, it is merely saying that if you don’t contribute in this manner that society has requested that you must stop taking benefits from that society.
The 5 years is to allow the bochur the chance to develop in his learning so that he can properly decide his future and so he can have a chance at meriting one of the exemption spots in his Yeshiva. The number comes from here:
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?’ ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ?
In the 1800’s the Tsar put a draft of 25 years on the Jews, Rather than being an individual draft, it was on the community, they community got to choose who was sent to the army. These jews who went were called Cantonists and were obviously lost.
What actually happend in each town, the rich of the town would bribe their way out of their sons going and the Rabbis of the town would also get their sons out of the draft.
In the end it was usually the Orphans and the poor would were actually drafted as they did not have the money or connections to avoid being drafted.
The haskallah and other things were a result of this draft and those who did not serve.
Ben,
I guess you don’t feel that bein adam l’makom is important enough to merit enforcement? You also don’t feel that learning provides a service to the public?
What happens when the number of talmidim who do see siman yafeh exceeds the secular government quota?
Fascinating, haredim may use the health services and public transportation in all sort of nonjewish countries, but in Israel, no, haredim have to feel guilty and build separate roads? Interesting. Moreover, there are other minorities in the state of Israel and no one tells them to build their own roads, nor dares calling them parasites or giukim — partly because there would be consequences.
As for the effect of forcing Tanach as part of a “core curriculum”, that was already done. It’s not turning out pretty, is it.
Benignuman, it is clear that they are allowed to proceed with harsh measures untill observance is restored. Your chiluk has no source, except for the insanity of the contemporary liberals.
Mdd,
Cite the language that you feel is “clear.” Which part of my chiluk are you claiming has no source, that these executions outside the normal halachic requirements is horaas sha, or that horaas sha by definition means something that in isolated incidents and not on a mass scale?
Daas,
It is not that bein adam l’makom isn’t important, it is that forcing private bein adam l’makom on a large scale is not what the Torah authorizes and it doesn’t do anything to force someone to shake a Lulav if in their mind they are doing nothing.
I am not saying that if they see a siman yaffeh they should be exempt. Under my proposed system it would require more than just siman yaffeh to make it into the quota. I am just borrowing the 5 years as an amount of time that is sufficient to allow us to judge the long term prospects of someone’s Torah future.
Ben: And what if 90% of the yeshiva guys demonstrate long-term Torah learning potential? Will your proposed system allow all of them to continue learning Torah full-time or will you force a certain percent into the army?
And who will be the judge, in your proposed system, as to who demonstrates the Torah learning potential? The secular government?
And how will the available learning slots be distributed? Each yeshiva is independent of each other. Will you give each yeshiva a certain number of slots, regardless whether some yeshivas have a much larger percentage of capable talmidim than other yeshivas?
Ben: If there is widespread murder (or chillul Shabbos, etc.), beis din can execute outside of normative halachic evidential requirements (i.e. the witnesses didn’t give a prior warning.)
Chevron,
I would propose the system work something like this. Participating Yeshivos get to set aside a specific percentage of their student body. The Yeshiva evaluates the candidates and chooses.
The problem you point out, that Yeshivas have different percentages of capable talmidim is a real one. But I suspect that the percentages of top quality talmidim will even out because people will try to go to institutions where they feel they have the best shot at a dichui.
See above for my response to your last question. I answered in response to mdd.
There are several problems with your proposal, in addition to the one you acknowledged.
1. If the percentage of capable talmidim exceed (or even far exceed) the number of exemptions granted.
2. In Bar-Ilan University if a calculus student tried his darndest, sweating hard hours of study, and yet he gets a 55 he then flunks the course. Yet if a talmid is learning Mesechtes Brochos and he is barely finishing a Daf every two weeks despite cracking his head over the Gemora and spending 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, shteiging over it, he is an A+ student who is better suited for learning than the guy who easily finishes (and knows well) a Mesechta beiyun every other chodesh while spending half his day smoking and shmoozing. The daf every other week talmid is doing more for Klal Yisroel (protecting us) with his Limud Torah than the mesechta every other chodesh talmid. We are far better off keeping the slower talmid in the Beis Mesrash. How will any bechina account for this fact?
it is that forcing private bein adam l’makom on a large scale is not what the Torah authorizes and it doesn’t do anything to force someone to shake a Lulav if in their mind they are doing nothing.
It’s funny that you should give that example, because the Gemara actually says that we do force someone to do the mitzvah of lulav.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=31&daf=132b&format=pdf
Benignuman, the stam assumption of the Gemora and Shulchan Aruch is that the Yidden keep the Torah. If people become prutzim be’aveiros and the regular punishments do not reign them in, the Beis Din is allowed to punish shlo al pi regular din to restore observance. That is the whole purpose of a horo’as sha’ah. Except for that Gemora with the Sanhedrin moving out — which one can misunderstand, the whole mashmoos of Tanach and Gemora is that we force the people to behave themselves, namely, to keep the mitzvos.
Right, Daas Yochid, and “ad she’teize nafsho” at that.
Daas,
I was unaware of that Gemara. I don’t recall ever seeing that we are kofin on mitzvos eseh. I will look into it and get back to you.
Mdd,
I know that is the stam assumption. I understood that Gemara to be saying that if the Bais Din sees a problem spreading in the otherwise frum community, then they can declare horaas sha and execute somehow outside of the Torah’s normal requirements. The purpose is to shock the rest of the population back into proper observance. But if you are dealing with a population that is completely frei, executing a person for turning on a light on shabbos will create anger and possibly violence from the rest of the population.
At a certain point things are so bad that executing doesn’t help and if doesn’t help then it is just murder, plain and simple.
Agav, according to the Satmar Rebbe Hashem didn’t create miracles to protect the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel. He allowed the Suttan to give a koach to the State of Israel due to the aveiros of Kl’al Yisroel.
R’Yakov Kaminetsky said in response to the Satmar Rebbe “with all due respect to the Satmar Rav, Hashem doesn’t need the Satmar Rav’s permission to perform miracles.”
benignuman: That is a misquote of Rav Yaakov. He disagreed with the SR, but he certainly did not say what you quoted.
FIA,
I typed that quote from memory. It, or something very similar to it, is printed in the book Reb Yaakov by Yonosan Rosenbloom.
benignuman -“R’Yakov Kaminetsky said in response to the Satmar Rebbe “with all due respect to the Satmar Rav, Hashem doesn’t need the Satmar Rav’s permission to perform miracles.”
One thing for sure, he didn’t do it because of the Zecusim of the Chilonim – prob because of all the Limud Torah there. And the Chilonim/Mizrachists (Lapid/Bennett) want to wipe out any Zecus they have in living/remaining alive by destroying the Yeshivos.
Let’s stop with the hyperbole. It wouldn’t destroy the Yeshivos. It would just lower their numbers and/or their structure.
Yet you would never dare suggesting a quota of conscripts among athletes or artists, with similar motivations that it would not “destroy” those institutions but just lower (minimally) their numbers and/or structure, that they take money from the zionist govt and would most certainly have to close down if it weren’t for that money, and that they benefit from security that the Medinat (more or less) keeps within its borders. We paid for long time our taxes, even though we did not think it was appropriate to cut funds to large families in order to fund greek theater, martial arts and all sort of stuff at the taxpayers’ expense, yet we paid and were silent, in deference to the status quo. Now we wonder why. Please, explain to all of us why.
Daniel,
I had trouble understanding what you wrote. I am absolutely in favor of drafting athletes and artists (I didn’t know they were exempt). I don’t think it is appropriate for any state to fund athletics or art.
Benignuman, now you said it! But the right name for it is “Ein be’yadeinu le’haamid Mishpatei ha’Das al tila” and not that “the Torah does not mandate enforcement…”. Btw, what you wrote about murder is not correct, but I am not going to go into it.
Daniela, you should be ashamed to mention the taxes — the Chareidim get much more from the Medinah than they pay in taxes!
Mdd,
I don’t see the difference between the two. The reason the Torah doesn’t mandate enforcement on a large scale is because “ein b’yadeinu l’haamid mishpatei haDas al tila.”
Please go into it. What do you think pshat in that Gemara is?
The difference is that if there are a lot of ovrei aveirah but the Frum have enough power to force them to keep mitzvos then this is what we do. On the other hand, if the Torah did not mandate it, then we do not do it.
Mdd,
I thought the “ein b’yadeinu” was because it won’t work (i.e. all the force in the world won’t make a large segment of the population frum) not because we don’t have the manpower.
Benignuman, modern liberal propaganda. If enough force is applied, it will work. Plenty examples from world history of governments enforcing things.
benignuman -“Let’s stop with the hyperbole. It wouldn’t destroy the Yeshivos. It would just lower their numbers and/or their structure.”
It’s not hyperbole. You think this because you don’t understand what a Yeshiva is, even though you learned in one.
Letting others tell you what to do, how to act, destroys the character/Ruchnius of the Yeshiva. That’s why they closed down Volozon, it wasn’t that learning secular subjects was so bad, it was the fact that it was forced on the Yeshivos by the Gov. -meaning the Gov. was in charge.
As a matter of fact, there is a famous story about the Brisker Rov zt’l that s/o once came to him and asked if they could take money for his Yeshiva from the Medina. He took out a gold chain and broke it and then said this is what the Medina will do to the Yeshivos if you take money from them. Nowadays, we see how prophetic his words were!
Mdd says, “If enough force is applied, it will work. Plenty examples from world history of governments enforcing things.” Four U.S. presidents applied force in Prohibition and it didn’t work. Four other U.S. presidents applied force in Vietnam and it didn’t work. Stalin applied force (some 20m dead in Ukraine in the 1930s) and it didn’t work. Mao applied force (up to 100m dead in the Great Cultural Revolution) and it didn’t work. If so, how much force should be applied to compel Orthoprax?
Naftush, I did not mean the way they apply force in the USA. And, by Stalin it most cetainly worked. He molded the country the way he saw fit.
I also want to most strongly object to calling the Kiyum Ha’Torah with a demeaning name, Rachmonah litzlan. Oy le’eynaim she’kach ro’os!
An op-ed in the Jerusalem Post had a great idea. They yeshiva schedule has Bein HaZmanim that are pretty long by working standards. That time is perfect for national or military service, and will not interfere with the regular zman schedule.
mordecai98: Let the JPost first editorialize that all soldiers be required to attend yeshiva when they are off-duty.
mordecai98 -Really pretty long? The longest is three weeks after Tisha Bav. Others might be longer but Yom Tov is inbetween.
So do you think anyone can finish basic training in 3 weeks?
Maybe enough time for a reservist, but I doubt enough for basic training.
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