February 15, 2010 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #591233
Some good halacha discussion please, I’ll add as soon as i translate my essay to english from hebrew 🙂February 15, 2010 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #675317
My Rov says to drink wine only until one has a “buzz” or gets a bit sleepy, but not to get smashed, as that leads to chillul Hashem and potentially to accidents.February 15, 2010 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #675318artchillParticipant
It also takes only a few wise guy baalebatim (some of whom drink too much themselves) to serve enough to keep the drinking going.
EDITEDFebruary 15, 2010 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #675319aries2756Participant
We now know how dangerous it is and WE as Parents MUST put our foot down. So WE must make the rules for OUR children. Drinking should be done ONLY at OUR purim seudah table and that will be WINE only that Tatty gives out during the SEUDAH. NO ONE is allowed to give OUR CHILDREN mashkeh and OUR CHILDREN are NOT ALLOWED to accept any from anyone even their Rebbeim. The answer is “NO THANK YOU!”. If they push the answer is “I will be oiver a takanah that my parents put on me and that is an aveirah against kibud av v’em”. Pull out all the stops if you have to. Say you will not prepare Shaloch Manos for their Rebbeim if they don’t comply! Let them know what the consequences are. Take them to a Hatzolah member to hear some of the horror stories before Purim. Take them to a Rebbe who has more seichel to speak to before Purim. DO WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO DO TO KEEP YOUR CHILDREN SAFE!
As a teenager one of my sons got drunk once on Purim out of town and threw up in the snow outside someone’s house and passed out.. His friends left him there in the snow until he woke up and came to. That was the first and last time for him. When he graduated and came home and went to a local Bais Medrash, he told his sister that he was going to have a drink at the chagigah and that she should stay up to pick him up later. He called her to come get him. He had one drink but his friends were dead drunk. He had to carry them into my daughter’s car (that they shared) and she drove them home one at a time. It took them a while to show up to the house again because my son made a point of telling them how they got home that night. They were totally embarrassed from my daughter.
No one likes a drunk except for another drunk!!
EDITEDFebruary 15, 2010 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #675320
oomis, what your Rov said is what the Rambam said on the matter… and the reason is the same as the Orchos Chayim…who says that its a strict assur because drunkenness lesds to arayos and shfichus damim…
What do your sons get drunk with? Wine or liquor? R’ Akiva Eiger in the name of Baal HaRokeach and the Radbaz that sheychar (liquor) and other drinks do not count… also the Ran tells us there is no mitzvah to get drunk at all…
I have seen a sefer bring the Lubavitcher Rebbe sying the word in the Gemora Megilah 7b “Avsumei” refers to spices “besomim” and nto to alcohol, this also is a shita not to be looked over, DO NOT MAKE A PSAK FROM THIS, ASK YOUR ROV, I DO THIS FOR SAKE OF HALACHIC DISCUSSION, Jothar, Joseph come on…February 16, 2010 5:13 am at 5:13 am #675321
I don’t claim to know more than Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky Shlit”a, or the Mishna Brurah who said that drinking to the point that you are mevatel mitzvos is an aveirah. Their words are good enough.February 16, 2010 6:07 am at 6:07 am #675322
Not to be too much of a killjoy, but it doesn’t matter whether it’s wine, liquor, beer, mead or fermented monkfish droppings. If your underage boys are getting drunk on Purim your not just committing a chillul hashem. You’re committing a crime. If, G-d forbid, they drive afterwards you bear responsibility for the very likely accidents.February 16, 2010 6:40 am at 6:40 am #675323
I don’t have a gemora in front of me so forgive me if I mix up some the names of some shito but to the best of my knowledge the shita that says one should not get drunk is based on the Bais Ephraim which states the reason why the Gemora brings down the ma’ase of “Kum Rabah V’Shuchtei Lrav Zeira” after the psak of Adeh Lo Yudah is precisley to teach us the dangers of drinking and therefore Chazal retracted the Psak.
The obvios difficulty with the Bais Ephraim is that if so how come the year after the maseh of Rabuah and Rav Zeira Raboh wished to have a seuda again and Rav Zeira replied “Lav kul Yoma Israchish Nisa” according to the Beis Ephraim that states the purpose of that Aggadita was to show us that Ad Di Lo Yudah is not literal then there should have been no need for a Nes?
If I remember correctly the Pri Chodosh asks this on the Shitas Beis Ephraim.
Also Otzer Midrashim brings a fascinating Medrash recounting a story abour Rav Meir who gor drunk Purim Night (Rav Chaim Kanievsky in his Hagpoes on Otzer Midrashim states that it’s Rav Meir Gaon in that Medrash not Rav Meir the Tanna) from the wording of that Medrash it seems it was standard practice not just to drink on Purim Day rather on Purim Night as well.
A halachic basis for this would probably revolve depend on whether one holds that Drinking is a mitzva onto itself or rather it is a part of the seuda the Mashmoes of the Rambam is that it is a seperate mitzva and if so perhaps it would apply ny night as well but if one would hold it is a part of the seuda then it should only apply by day since there is no chiyuv seuda at night.February 16, 2010 7:40 am at 7:40 am #675324bein_hasdorimParticipant
AD D’LOY YODAH!…..AD, V’LOY AD B’ICHLAL!!!February 16, 2010 9:38 am at 9:38 am #675325
Jothar, the Chayei Odom and the Elyah Rabboh say the same… and chas vechaliloh I don’t doubt them and the Chofetz Chayim. I merely started this in order to provoke a halachic discussionFebruary 16, 2010 9:41 am at 9:41 am #675326
Ben Levi… the Ran in the name of Rabeinu Efrayim says that Kum Rabah veShachtey is a tiyuvtoh to Rava and so there is no mitzvah as such, so thats what the Bais Efrayim is saying?
Correct me if I’m wrongFebruary 16, 2010 9:59 am at 9:59 am #675327
Rav Zeira needed a miracle because he almost died last time from overdrinking (Maharsha’s version of aggadata), or because drinking is dangerous (Orchos Chayim).
He was saved last time by a neis that Raboh became sober and realized Rav Zeira was almost dead, and he davened and B”H Rav Zeira lived.
Is that the answer you needed? If not, could you please explain me the question?February 16, 2010 10:01 am at 10:01 am #675328
anuran underages are not supposed to get drunk on purim, ESPECIALLY if they are driving afterwards… it is pikuach nefeshFebruary 16, 2010 10:16 am at 10:16 am #675329
I made a mistake in the quote of R’ Akiva Eiger… he dosen’t support the Radbaz and Rokeach, he is against them and says he dosen’t know why the mitzvoh is with wine…
But if I’m not mistaken there is a Gilyonei HaShas in Pesochim that the only rejoicing after the Beis HaMikdosh was destroyed is wine?!
Thats a complete stirah, cn someone pleasae help me here?February 16, 2010 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #675330
Taalmid lo Chacham,
The question on the Beis Ephraim is that if the Mas’e of zKum Rabah V’Shochtei L”rav Zeira was brought down to disprove the chiyuv of Ad Di Lo Yodah then why would is it the story ends off that the following year Rav Zeira stated he would not have the seuda with Rabah because of “lav Kol Yomah Israchish Nisah” he would not have needed a Nes since based upon the previos years events there was no lomger a chiyuv to Drink.
The Stiras in Rav Akiva Eiger you quoted could be ansewered simply that the mitzva on Purim is not neccassarily to get drink rather it is to get drunk hence Rav Akiva Eiger question if it is not a mitzva to Drink (i.e Simcha) then why only wine anythige that brings about shikrus should be used.
As an asided the Rambam seems to hold there is no chiyuv to get drunk at all rather the Gemora is saying that when one gets drunk they are potur from Drinking further.
I would add that There is a well known Senior Rosh Yeshiva who refused sign the letter against drinking beer on Purim because he stated that when he was a bochur the minhag in Yeshivos was that you can fulfill the mitzva with anything that gets one drunk and he is not big enough to sign against a minhag.
Howevr I do know that Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt’l held that since beer is dangerous one should only drink wine.February 16, 2010 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #675331
The part of underages not drinking on Purim is intewresting.
I would like to know if the age limit is lowered to 15 (as many propose) would it then be permitted Also is it permitted for those in countries with a lower age limit allowed to drink.February 16, 2010 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #675332the.nurseMember
My uncle is on Hatzalah and unfortunately spends most of Purim on calls.. dragging stone dead drunk guys out of the street, or rushing people to the hospital because of cardiac arrest due to overdosing, or drink & drive car accidents.. people, its not worth itFebruary 16, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #675333the.nurseMember
sorry, should’ve posted previous comment in the “drink or not to drink” threadFebruary 16, 2010 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #675334
TlC – Absolutely. Felt it was worth mentioning since, forbidden or not, it happens more often than we’d like.February 16, 2010 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #675335
the Yad Efrayim paskens like the Pri Chodosh, only he says that the story was put in the Gemora to prove that Rava is RIGHT and in its turn is a tiyuvtoh to Kamu Raboh veShachtey (Apparently the Yad Efrayim thinks that the story of the invitation of Raboh to R’ Zeira and the latter’s refusal indeed is part of Kamu Raboh veShachtey leRabbi Zeira)…
The Bais Efrayim as I understand him says that R’ Zeira’s refusal has no connection to Kamu Raboh veShachtey leRabbi Zeira, and so can’t save Rava…February 16, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #675336
BTW: Thanks for the answer… the question had bothered me for couple days 🙂
Happy we can share knowledge with each other
Kol Tuv, DovidFebruary 16, 2010 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #675337aaryd621Participant
i’m a teenager and i think that getting drunk is awesome and i hate it when overprotective parents try to stop me from doing the mitzvahFebruary 16, 2010 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #675341ishmanMember
It is truly disgusting that tennagers should be using a yom Kadosh like purim as an excuse to get FarshikuredFebruary 17, 2010 1:41 am at 1:41 am #675358aries2756Participant
To moderator, I think some of these posts need to be deleted. This is a serious discussion and they are not funny.
aaryd621 and ishman, go do your homework and stop using Touro’s network to spam the Coffee Room! – YW ModeratorFebruary 17, 2010 3:26 am at 3:26 am #675359
aaryd, are you as enthusiastic about following mitzvos which don’t involve something fun?February 17, 2010 3:40 am at 3:40 am #675360
anuran, that is EXACTLY the point I have been trying to make. Funny how dedicated these kids are to this particular “mitzvah.”February 17, 2010 7:22 am at 7:22 am #675361
Indeed… very very dedicated… I wonder if they are so dedicated to tougher mitzvos, like keeping their health (for underage to get drunk does terrible liver damage, and also can lead to other stuff, like cardiac arrest, car accidents, the lot)
UNDERAGE DRINKING IS WRONG… 4 CUPS (on Pesoch) IS DIFFERENT FROM 4 BOTTLES (on Purim), ESPECIALLY FOR OUR YOUTHFebruary 17, 2010 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #675362
Does anyone hold it’s a mitzvah to be mevatel tefilla betzibbur, bentchig, and zman krias shema, even on Purim? I have yet to see a source who holds that.
I have a relative who was in a Nevorodok yeshiva in Poland in his youth. He said they banned drinking there on Purim.February 17, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #675363
Furthermore, another one of my rabbeim said that in Europe they didn’t drink because nobody could afford alcohol.February 17, 2010 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #675364
No one has a shitoh like that as far as I know… the Chayei Odom says thats the LIMIT you can’t drink to that state of drunkennessFebruary 17, 2010 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #675365
Jothar, with all respect to your rabbi home distilling was very common in Europe. Stills are easy to make, and the raw materials for hooch are quite inexpensive – grain, potatoes, fruit in season. People might have been too poor in certain times and places, but alcohol was mostly cheap and easy to come by. And given the prevalence of public drunkenness and deaths from alcohol poisoning in the historical record it took a fearsome toll.
Up until the fairly recently the average adult drank four or five liters of beer or wine a day. Coffee transformed Europe for Jew and Gentile alike. That urn of coffee in the yeshiva break room did more for the health and well-being of Jews than almost any other modern invention. cf. A History of the World in Six Glasses and The Devil’s Cup.February 18, 2010 12:22 am at 12:22 am #675366
Sorry Jothar but it is quite famous that Rav Yisroel Salanter and his talmidim would be stone drunk the entire Purim and sober up as soon as night fell.
Additionally I was told by “alte mirrers” that on Purim all the bochrim drank.
While it is true Rav Aaron Kotler zt’l did not drink on Purim neither did he drink the entire year for kiddush he drank the bare minimum to be yotze and Rav Shneur zt’l used to become quite shikur on Purim as Rav Malkiel Kotler shlita does as well.
Interestingly I was told by a talmid of Rav Aron zt’l that Rav Shneur was extremely shy and would not say any Torah of his own the whole year but when Purim time came and he was shikur he would all of a sudden become a “mayin hamisgaber”February 18, 2010 12:25 am at 12:25 am #675367
Again for all those who hold underage drinking is “assur” I would pose the question what do you do if you hold what cannot make HaGafen on grpae juice from concentrate (a very common view) are you then not aloud to make kiddush on wine come shabbos until you are 21 years old?February 18, 2010 2:43 am at 2:43 am #675368
Ben Levi. Let’s say it IS assur, someone under 21 can always be yotze kiddush with someone above age. Same person can make kiddush on concord kal or other low alcohol wines. Your question is nothing more than excuse to “drink”.
Moreover, the largest shiur required for kiddush will not make you drunk – unless there is an opinion that holds the shiur is 1.5 liters. If one would get drunk on 8 ounces of normal wine, I suspect will be given a psak that he can be “maikel” and use grape juice.
Regarding the original question, all I can say is, despite the fact that medically I should not be drinking alcohol, and don’t, my simchas purim has never been compromised, and nobody has ever told me I was not yotze “purim”.February 18, 2010 4:12 am at 4:12 am #675369
Jphone, my point was that if one holds it is assur for someone under 21 to consume alchohol then any amount is assur period even if its concord kal and even if it’s 1.5 ounces.
As for being yotze with some one else what if the person is married and under 21 or even unmarried and a bochur in yeshiva or any other common case?February 18, 2010 5:00 am at 5:00 am #675370
The laws regarding the age for drinking wine apply to all, EXCEPT for the single kos yayin that is required for religious observance. Our government recognizes that sacramental wine is necessary for Shabbos and yom tov, and no one tells parents not to give them wine for kiddush, though one may be yotzai on grape juice. My parents always watered down the wine my father O”H served to the children, until we were of an age to tolerate the undiluted wine. He always mixed our wine half and half with grape juice on Pesach (because otherwise, we fell asleep before we got to Shulchan Orech). Ben Levi’s point is incorrect. ALL other wine drinking except for Shabbos and yom tov kiddush, is assur under age 21. But no frum Jew will be arrested for serving wine at kiddush for those who are underage. And MORE IMPORTANT — those underage people who are drinking wine at Shabbos or Yom Tov Kiddush, ARE NOT GETTING BEHIND THE WHEELS OF A CAR until that alcohol has already left their systems. And that makes all the difference in the world.February 18, 2010 5:27 am at 5:27 am #675371
Oomis with all due respect there is no one debating that it is ossur to get behind the weel of a car drunk.
You neglect to explain though how it is mutar for a boy to drink kiddush wine but ossur to drink on Purim whioch is also a chiyuv according to pashut pshat gemorah, mesorah, as well as minhag.
However to discourage the growing trend of drinking I would highly support a vigouros campaighn no less forceful then the one against drinking on Purim with the goal of eradicating the growing number of shul “Kiddush Cloubs” wich truly have no basis in Halacha my hunch is such a campaign would do much more to arrest the disturbing tren of drinking then the current campaign against Halacha.
Incidentally, Why is iit that the campaign against Purim Drinking is conducted with so much vigour yet we barely hear a peep about Kiddush Clubs,
Guesses Anyone?February 18, 2010 5:43 am at 5:43 am #675372JosephParticipant
In New York State, a minor is ALLOWED to posses and consume alcohol with parental consent under ANY circumstance at any time. Not just for religious purposes.
Per the National Institutes of Health.
There is no law prohibiting minors from being mekayim the mitzvah of drinking on Purim if the parents allow it.February 18, 2010 7:46 am at 7:46 am #675373
If parents allow it is different matter, but parents should be responsible and not damage children. Mekayeim mitzvah is fine, but many yeshivah bochrim completely get themselves DEAD DRUNK on Purim and make a Chillul Hashem by acting badly (The Mishnah Brurah says that one who acts badly under influence should follow the shitoh of the Orchos Chayim and only drink a bit more than usual) (A terrible Chillul Hashem which Chazal said that Yom Kippur dosen’t make caparah for), and justify themselves by saying “We’re doing a mitzvah”. Ironic right?February 18, 2010 11:15 am at 11:15 am #675374
Ben Levi, things that are unobjectionable become unacceptable when taken to excess. Washing your hands is good. Washing them every minute and twenty one seconds around the clock is bad. Modesty and humility are good. Making yourself invisible and total self-deprecation are bad.
A sip of kiddush wine barely registers. Getting stinking drunk is bad.
Any grownup understands the idea of moderation and appropriate self-restraint. With any luck the frontal lobes have developed at least that far. And before you ask, yes, there’s an awful lot of children and adolescents running around in sixty year old bodies.
Children? Not so much. Their brains just aren’t that developed.
Teenagers? Especially teenage boys who can’t blow off extra energy by raiding the neighboring tribe’s cattle? Hormonal-hurricane teenage boys with adult permission to get completely polluted? Get them in a group and most of them will have all the impulse control of a falling brick.
Girls get into mischief when they have too much to drink, but they tend to be a little more mature than boys the same age, and the trouble doesn’t usually involve the Famous Last Words “Hey y’all. Hold my beer and watch this!”February 18, 2010 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #675375tomim tihyeMember
My father and husband are yotze “ad d’lo yoda” with a nap!
Don’t teenagers love to sleep, too?February 18, 2010 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #675376
Thats what the Rambam and Maharil advise tomimFebruary 18, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #675377
By the way if youre yotze through a nap the sleeping must be brought about through drinking. In other words the wine must cause someone to fall asleep if not the sleeping is worthless.February 18, 2010 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #675378
Ben Levi. Your simply looking for an excuse to drink more than a cup of wine (which is all you need to drink to be yotze kiddush, doraisa).
If your parents let you drink till you puke your guts out, go right ahead. All I, and most people, request, is you dont endanger us in any way in your drunken stupor. Not by getting behind the wheel of a car or any other way.February 18, 2010 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #675379
Ben Levi agreed, I thought thats what tomim said?February 18, 2010 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #675380
TLC. Its not easy to be relaxed knowing that there are plenty of people who believe the only simchas purim is to get so drunk, to the point where you are puking your guts out while becoming a danger to yourself and everyone around you.February 18, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #675381
Don’t overexaggerate… I know how you feel though. B”H not all are like you described, and describing Ben Levi as such is totally unjustified. He just advocated the Rambam’s shitoh which is the most meikel, so better to sleep than puke wouldn’t you say?February 18, 2010 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #675382
Actually, Ben Levi seems to be advocating drinking enough wine so that it knocks you out. Simply going to sleep, he/she appears to be saying, is not good enough. Then again, why quibble about what Ben Levi is saying. Let Ben Clarify his/her own comment.February 18, 2010 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #675383YW Moderator-80Member
All he is saying is the well known and obvious pshat.
There is no Mitzvah of lo adu
The mitzvah is to drink wine.
Lo adu is the shiur of how much to drink.
Some hold the shiur is enough to put one to sleep (which can be as little as a reveis for some people)
Simply going to sleep does not fulfill the MitzvahFebruary 18, 2010 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #675384
Thank You Mod I could not have explained it better myself.
In addition I would like to be notified where those shitos that hold going to sleep not through drinking are located as well as the source.
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