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How disgusting is it to have both bachurim and married men become uncontrollably drunk in a Bais Mikdash Me’at on Simchas Torah? When did this Yom Tov become interchangeable with Purim? It’s a real Bizayon for the Torah.
Simcha that comes through alcohol use is ‘fake.’ Alcohol in moderation can be used to enhance a Simcha. It should not be the subject of the Simcha. The only alcohol I had was what I made Kiddush on + 1/2 shot of scotch, which was BTW after gevaldige hakafos. My Simcha came from singing and dancing.
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gotta agree.
When did it become okay to be uncontrollably drunk on Purim?
Ithink that teenage boys and even older men associate celebration with alchohol. It’s like “Oh it’s simchas Torah, I’m happy… lets get drunk!!” I think it’s way out of hand and I saw quite a few guys in my shul who were completely wasted. It’s disgusting. Why do guys think it’s cool to drink and get drunk?????
I find both of them funny, but even more funny to me are the people who get mad at them. Man, you guys give me the giggles. Thanx for the entertainment. You guys are great.
sam2- give up. really big rabbis do it and give to their talmidim. your indignance doesnt make you right.
I don’t think it’s a bad idea at all. I’ll explain:
It says somewhere that if one would know the ‘zeeskite’ of Torah, the would literately go crazy over it. So on Simchas Torah, the ‘normal’ ones don’t want to feel left out, so they too drink and get intoxicated. Some are dancing from Torah, others from the wine.
You don’t find it revolting to see grown men throwing up on Yom Tov because they had no self control? Okay, if your only intention is to be happier about celebrating the Torah then go right ahead. I don’t think thats the reason that guys are drinking. And theres a limit. Getting a little tipsy or high is one thing but to become so drunk that you pass out is another. (yes that happened in my shul)
So you’re saying that because they don’t want to feel left out, people can do what the Moreh Nevuchim calls the worst possible thing someone can do?
Some men in my shul were giving boys – 13 years old – including my son – glasses of wine and whiskey. WHY???? Now I admit, kids this age don’t seem to have the same simcha as a bochur who is a little bit older, but still, one of the kids got drunk and threw up in his house. Why does his mother have to deal with that? It’s surely not Purim. Sorry, Zeeskite, I don’t think this has anything to do with the normal ones getting drunk so that they don’t feel left out. It’s just fun dancing and enjoying oneself. At least that’s my opinion.
The Mishna Berurah writes that many places have the minhag to duchan on Simchas Torah by Shacharis (or not at all) because the Kohanim may be drunk. Nowhere does he say not to drink, unless it’s a place where they duchan by Mussaf. Not that I think out of control drinking and wild behavior is okay for Simchas Torah (although for Purim it’s fine), but the implication is that to a certain point there is no problem.
torah and booze….aaaaaah, ONLY THOSE can get you nice ‘n shikkur with happiness…nothing else….nothing else…
Mr. Booze, that’s it. Just me ‘ZeesKite’ (of the Torah, of course) and you.
Frumguy,
I completely agree,
However to be melamed zechus its called SIMCHAS torah and the gemara says ain simcha eleh byayin
Frumguy
Why are you trying to ruin my glee?
Of course you get mad at them. Nobody starts a thread on the disgustingness of something unless they is mad. Why don’t you start a thread on the disgustingness of mold or puke or dead squirrels? Because you dont care thats why. Youre mad and Im having a grand old time laughing at you.
L’Chaim ZeesKite, L’Chaim
Nechoma says
Why does his mother have to deal with that?
The Heir to the Shattya Dynasty says
Thats an excellent point. He should clean it up himself. Anyone old enough to drink is old enough to scrape dried puke off the floor. I’ve been there before and would be proud to be there again, hangover and all.
I don’t drink, sorry. Maybe get intoxicated with the Torah, yeah that’s it.
“The Mishna Berurah writes that many places have the minhag to duchan on Simchas Torah by Shacharis (or not at all) because the Kohanim may be drunk”
A Reviis of wine is enough to passul a kohen from going to duchan. Perhaps the mishna berurah simply means the minhag is to duchan by shachris because many kohanim would have made kiddush and had a reviis of wine by the time mussaf comes along. That is how my Rav interprets the mishne brurah (some bachurim wanted to bring a proof from this mishne brurah that getting drunk on simchas torah is endorsed by the mishne brura and wanted the Rav to relinquish the keys to the closet where the liquor was kept).
I am aware of a Rosh Yeshiva who had a no hard liquor policy in his yeshiva on simchas torah, and proceeded to have the bouncer he hired toss out several bachurim who tried bringing in several bottles.
A Reviis of wine is enough to passul a kohen from going to duchan. Perhaps the mishna berurah simply means the minhag is to duchan by shachris because many kohanim would have made kiddush and had a reviis of wine by the time mussaf comes along. That is how my Rav interprets the mishne brurah (some bachurim wanted to bring a proof from this mishne brurah that getting drunk on simchas torah is endorsed by the mishne brura and wanted the Rav to relinquish the keys to the closet where the liquor was kept).
Presuming it’s the same shiur as davening, it’s not really a reviis, our wine is weaker, and anyway much more than an hour would have elapsed. I’m not sure why he had to stick that stuff in, a halacha can account for inappropriate things that are done.
ZeesKite: L’Chaim refers to Torah (as in Eitz Chaim Hee).
One of the things I love about my shul is that *no one* gets drunk.
At night there is no liquor. By day there is, and some people may have a drink or two, but that’s it. In the 8 Simchas Torahs I’ve spent there, I have yet to see a mispalel drunk on Simchas Torah.
The Wolf
apushitayid: See the simchas torah vorts thread for the proper definition of “a reviis”
The rest of you: Seriously, has anyone heard of moderation? You’re supposed to act wild with simcha on simchas torah, drunk or not. You are not supposed to puke on people. Can we all agree on that?
itche- we can. i think we all do. the point of contention, i believe, is that some people are against drinking on their own morals, nothing to do with judaism. if eliyahu hanavi said to drink they would still feel bad. they cloak these feelings in a guise of leshem shomayim and say how terrible it is and how bad these people are. the RY they speak of put thought into it. even if he loves to drink, he would still assur it because he holds that on a spiritual level, its bad for his guys. fine. but some people, my rabbeim included, hold that, in moderation, whiskey is a good thing. if its not coming from hashkafos hatorah, rather from personal preference, then we may as well make the thread about doing drugs on simchas torah, and their point would be the same.
toi: Fair enough. Maybe it would help to point out that the idea of whiskey being bad mitzad atzmo comes from protestant Christianity?
Doesn’t the mechaber discuss simcha shel mitvah and hoillelus with regard to simchas torah? Can getting drunk to the point of puking all over the next guy or staggering around the shul be considered simcha shel mitzvah?
With regard to Reviis, is it the same shiur for wine and hard liquor?
“Maybe it would help to point out that the idea of whiskey being bad mitzad atzmo comes from protestant Christianity?”
Or perhaps its because too much alcohol in your system can kill you.
Perhaps drunkeness in ofitself is abhorable. What does the midrash say about Noach planting a vine?
apushutayid: Let me repeat myself:
Seriously, has anyone heard of moderation? You’re supposed to act wild with simcha on simchas torah, drunk or not. You are not supposed to puke on people. Can we all agree on that?
Toi: Maybe I believe getting drunk is wrong because Judaism is against it?
cinderella -“You don’t find it revolting to see grown men throwing up on Yom Tov because they had no self control? Getting a little tipsy or high is one thing but to become so drunk that you pass out is another. (yes that happened in my shul)”
Did you mention this to your Rov? I know of a Shul like this and the Rov is always spouting Chumros, but this type of behavior goes on during Simchas Torah. I would never belong to this type of Shul!
It did not happen in my shul, baruch hashem. I was on my way home simchas torah night and I passed a big, very prominent shul and there were men outside throwing up.
cinderella -So say -B’H that would never occur in my Shul. I’m glad I don’t go to this place.
sam2- the refernces in moreh nevuchim and orchas tzaddikim are against being drunk. not having 2 or 3 shots. so why do you say so?
I am opposed to becoming drunk at any place and at any time. However, many chassiduyot approved of drinking and becoming drunk on certain occasions. Furthermore, when a man is drinking, he cannot determine with any accuracy whether he will puke/vomit/throw up. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. That’s not really the issue here.
People, especially Bochurim, don’t know how much to take. They take a drink and don’t feel anything different, so they take another, and another. Then it all hits at once. Perhaps, if more people would drink, the Bochurim wouldn’t have to figure this out on their own. Instead of yelling at them, they should be shown, or told, what to do.
If you take a little, it makes you able, and willing, to dance without regard to tiredness and anything else that weighs you down.
Dancing on Simchas Torah is not a product of everybody being moved to dance. We know that we should dance, for the Simchas Hatorah, and we do. That creates the Simcha, which we are making for the Torah. When you drink, you are creating more Simcha.
Toi: I clearly said “getting drunk”, not “drinking”. Enjoy your one or two shots (or three). Don’t have more.
HaLeiVi -“Perhaps, if more people would drink, the Bochurim wouldn’t have to figure this out on their own. Instead of yelling at them, they should be shown, or told, what to do.”
You are in a dream world. You don’t think their parents or others haven’t told them how much to drink? They don’t listen. They want to get stoned. Some parents have no control of their kids. If the powers that be would put their foot down, the drunkeness wouldn’t occur. Some Rabbonim and/or Rosh Hayeshivos don’t care. So if the parents can’t control these kids and if the leaders don’t care – this is why this situation occurs in many places.
It’s funny but people like you will make excuses for everything. The same thing happens with smoking. The few Rosh Hayeshivos that care you won’t find any smoking in their Yeshiva. And there are always ones who try to challenge the rule in these Yeshivos. And you know what happens in these Yeshivos to these guys? Well they get chucked because the Hanhala takes this seriously. In a lot of Yeshivos, the Hanhala doesn’t take this seriously.
Is the Simchas Torah drinking taking place before/during dancing? Because Kiddush is only made AFTER dancing. So how does the drinking help with the dancing?
Plenty of places make Kiddush before dancing. And if they don’t, the guys just break out the whiskey and make Kiddush on that before/during dancing.
Toi:Davening with a reviis of alcohol is a problem according to the Mishna Brura( 668:mah shnahgan,and 669:6)
Dr.Seuss: Chyiuv of kiddush comes after Shachris(Raavad argues) and one is allowed to eat even more than a beitza (better to do it with another person to remind you to daven mussaf)
sam4321: What does the Raavad’s argument have to do with this issue?
There is a huge difference between making kiddush and drinking to get drunk!
In our shul which is real Chassidish, a group of bochurim from a so called Litvish shul came by and asked for aliyas which they could not get in their shul(maybe they overslept and came too late). They nicely each got an aliya and then asked if they could make kiddush. When shown where the kiddush would be taking place, they went made kiddush and got so high and rowdy and i will not write the end. One of the men, who has a daughter in shidduchim
(and only wants a Litvish boy)commented this is what i am supposed to commit myself to at least $30,000 a year for support!?!?!?!
Shein: I assumed when he said AFTER he meant mussaf.
“In a lot of Yeshivos, the Hanhala doesn’t take this seriously.”
they will, the very first time a member of the hanhala of a yeshiva is arrested for serving alcohol to minors.
It’s probably that they drink alchohol all year in so called moderation, a little after the HafTorah, more at the Kiddish, wine at lunch, brandy or Shnapps also. They wait for couple of big events during the year, incl. weddings, to drink much more than normal. IMO, they are alchoholics and should be encouraged to go to AA Meetings. I am speaking as one, with 4 plus years of no alchohol and loving it.
Never heard that happen, apushatayid. I believe the law makes a religious exemption for serving alcohol to a minor. (Called sacramental something or another. The cops don’t try determining if it is your religions sacrament or not.) For whatever reason it is obviously allowed.
sam4- we’re not talking about davening with alcohol in your system. stay on point.
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